Recommendations for a rim

[Chalo]

I just purchased and received the SUnlite Ringles XL. THEY HAVE NO MACHINED SIDEWALLS!!!! How much is this going to affect braking performance with my Vbrakes? I

Not at all. Machined sidewalls aren't for your benefit-- they exist so the rim manufacturer doesn't have to do a good job lining up the rim joint. As long as the sidewalls aren't painted or powdercoated, you're better off if they aren't machined.

There anodized or painted. It is a black sun ringle XL. BEST best is that the brake pads will wear off the paint sooner or later. As i mentioned " buyer pays return shipping". It's really difficult finding a good rim that checks ALL the boxes.

They're anodized. I've seen a lot of Sun rims for 35 years and none were painted. Anodizing doesn't harm brake effectiveness.

Let this nonsense go-- machined rims were thought up in the '90s as a way to make them more cheaply and get them to wear out faster. You got some good traditionally made rims there, but you're spinning out about them not having a feature that makes them worse.

Last time I had a choice between powdercoated or powdercoated and machined rims, I took the non-machined ones and skinned off the sidewalls myself with a flap wheel. That way I knew no material had been removed unnecessarily.

 

[MarkJohnston]

Yeah it's fine. This rim will do. I am going to buy the park TM-1 tension meter and I just need to pull the trigger for spokes and nipples at Yojimbos garage in chicago. I am going with the sapim strong 13g/14g and the sapim nipples. He's got some good deals.

DO you think I would be served just as well with the KNOCK OFF version of the TM-1. I heard that you use the TM-1 but just use it as a final check to make sure your tension is even and not too high or low. The price difference is enormous here but not as much as the decision i made to not buy the park tool truing stand which now I am regretting. I did buy the cheaper but still steel power coated knock off tawainese version. But like I said I am regretting it even though it saved me $200. but now we are only talking $60 difference and even this park tool TM-1 is cheaper than the DT swiss. Please advice.

I also heard the park tool is not very accurate and the numbers are difficult to read. and I also heard that these tools are not suited to hub motors and their short spoke lengths. I guess I can always return the thing if it doesn't work. I am looking right now and seeing that my spokes are very close together

 

[MarkJohnston]

Shit!!! I am seeing cracking around the nipples that got frocked up because i tightened up the nipples too much. Its not too bad but yeah little cracks n whatnot. Guys... Can i lower the tensiom and fix this? Will this TM-1 EVEN HELP? DO I NEED THE DT SWISS TOOL?

 

[Chalo]

Shit!!! I am seeing cracking around the nipples that got frocked up because i tightened up the nipples too much. Its not too bad but yeah little cracks n whatnot. Guys... Can i lower the tensiom and fix this? Will this TM-1 EVEN HELP? DO I NEED THE DT SWISS TOOL?

Cracking the rim at the eyelets? If so, no you can't un-crack the metal; it's done. If it's just scratches from spoke tips or your spoke key, then that's probably okay. Maybe post a picture of what you're talking about?

Seems to me that you could use some direct experience of professionally built wheels, to reduce the amount of random guesswork you're doing.

 

[999zip999]

I just Tang my spokes with my fingertip and listen for the noise it makes or grab them to see if they're loose and tighten up as in sneak up on them. to crack a rim would seem that you would have to tighten that thing extremely hard. Check it again and look at it to see if they're actually cracked.

 

[MarkJohnston]

I wouldn't say it's cracked yet. But it is deforming around the nipple eyelets.

What causes spokes to loosen? Is it the overall tension not being the same or is it that the spokes aren't tight enough?

 

[MarkJohnston]

I wouldn't say it's cracked yet. But it is deforming around the nipple eyelets.

What causes spokes to loosen? Is it the overall tension not being the same or is it that the spokes aren't tight enough?

Should I lower the overall tension a bit? I am ordering the TM-1

 

[amberwolf]

Unfortunately, it's cracked, and probably deformed on at least some of the nipple holes that aren't yet visibly cracked. The damage is done, and will only get worse. Loosening the spokes won't undo the damage. Cracks will continue to propagate over time under load.

Nipples can loosen in cases like this because the tension is too high for the rim's strength, so it cracks and deforms, which means the spoke is no longer under (correct) tension, and the tension changes drastically during rotation under load. Then the nipple is free to move (and can be wiggled by the changing tension), and loosen.

If the nipples loosen without rim damage, then it means the spokes aren't tight enough, and the above scenario is still happening, just that the spokes started out too loose instead of loosening because of rim deformation/damage.

If the spokes are too thick for the rim's strength (as is the case with numerous OEM hubmotors), then it requires too much tension to tighten them sufficiently, which will damage the rim, and cause the above scenario.

 

[MarkJohnston]

Unfortunately, it's cracked, and probably deformed on at least some of the nipple holes that aren't yet visibly cracked. The damage is done, and will only get worse. Loosening the spokes won't undo the damage. Cracks will continue to propagate over time under load.

Nipples can loosen in cases like this because the tension is too high for the rim's strength, so it cracks and deforms, which means the spoke is no longer under (correct) tension, and the tension changes drastically during rotation under load. Then the nipple is free to move (and can be wiggled by the changing tension), and loosen.

If the nipples loosen without rim damage, then it means the spokes aren't tight enough, and the above scenario is still happening, just that the spokes started out too loose instead of loosening because of rim deformation/damage.

If the spokes are too thick for the rim's strength (as is the case with numerous OEM hubmotors), then it requires too much tension to tighten them sufficiently, which will damage the rim, and cause the above scenario.

Damn looks like I need to start getting good at building wheels! I've always had problems with bicycle wheels that come with cheap rims and I ride so much and heavy and fast. How do I get the tension just right? I just bought park tools TM1 (tension meter) and heard that its often WAY off when it comes to the tension per spoke and is only ON when you use it to measure a THE OVERALL TENSION in the wheel. THis is much trickier than I thought. YEs looks like I did indeed use way too much tension when those spokes came loose I flipped out and couldn't get the wheel true.

 

[amberwolf]

I'm no expert, but the wheels I've built I've generally just followed the advice on Sheldon Brown's pages
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html
(for doing it without any of the "proper" tensioning / truing tools) and they've turned out well enough. I've picked up bits here on ES more specific to hubmotors and the like, but really the basics are the same.

The only ones I've had rims fail on like that whether I built or rebuilt them or not, are OEM hubmotor wheels built with spokes so thick they take so much tension to work right that the cheap rim just can't take it. I can't remember but I don't think any of them had eyelets, that failed this way. Not sure if the eyelets would've helped or just masked the beginning of the damage, in this situation.

When building typical bike wheels (usually by reusing spokes (and hubs / rims) from other old wheels, so they're typically 15g, sometimes 14g) I haven't had trouble like that--I end up stripping the nipple flats before I can overtension the spoke enough to do anything else, even in the cases I deliberately tried to just put as high a tension as physically possible on them in experiments. I think in a couple cases I broke the nipple head off inside the rim first. :lol: But I can't recall doing in the rim itself, and most of the rims I've used were just whatever came on the random bikes I've acquired as parts sources (from goodwill, freecycle, etc).

I've destroyed plenty of rims while riding, but that's almost always bead-area damage, or in one case a nail that went all the way up thru the tire and then the rim, and several cases of tacoing to some degree from various causes, including once using a solid tire instead of pneumatic so it beat the crap out of the wheel till the spokes came loose / broke and rim warped, at least once from skidding on a gravel path with the front wheel turned to try to control direction but instead it bent the rim.

 

[999zip999]

My first will build with a mxus 3000 motor wasn't very good and the spokes broke the second one I had mxus drill the holes smaller to fit my 13 14 spam spokes that worked better the third time I built the wheel I put washers under the spoke heads and it's been great but I have broken two or three spokes. After 4-6mos. Plus Sheldon Brown.

 

[MarkJohnston]

What's the recommended KGF for my 9 C clone rim? I can't seem to find the info here on the forums, and the Chinese seller doesn't give a crap. I am getting 150 KGF( 5 or so spokes at 172!!!) with the park tool TM-1 which seems a little on the high side. upon closer inspection examining the spoke eyelet holes and the flanges... the damage isn't all that bad it seems. Wolf could be right but since I have the tool it won't hurt to lower the entire tension of the wheel. Just a quarter turn on all the nipples will do it.

IS the TM-1 wildly off? I measured some of my other wheels with it that are decently true and holding, seems to be like it's not giving a wildy inaccurate read. I've heard these meters are often off though.

ALso I can't figure out if the chinese spokes are 12 G or not. I mean my 12G universal spoke wrench fits onto the nipple pretty snug but I am not sure if 12G means 2.6 mm or 3.0 MM. I guess I will get out my tape measure next since I don't have a vernier caliper.

I am worried about my next build too here that I am going to accomplish in two days time. I am worried that the sapim strong single butted 13g/14G are not going to withstand my 50 pound battery rear rack mount with all that weight directly over the wheel. I usually ride around 25-30 MPH but on big down hills I like to go about 40 MPH. Fastest I've ever been able to go. I am worried about spokes BREAKING are these little spokes REALLy going to WORK better?


Also I would like to know if you guys have any down and dirty techniques to find out if I measured right and got the right length spokes and nipples BEFORE I lace up the wheel. MAybe just use two at the longest points to see if the nipples are fully threaded. MArcus at yojimbos gargage said I could return so long as i didn't bend them lacing em up. But I do want to oil them though so let me know what the method is

also do hub motors require different bracing angles for drive and non drive side? Doesn't seem like it my motor is so huge that even a giant 15 speed cassette could fit on there if it were compatible and I had the cash

 

[Chalo]

I am worried that the sapim strong single butted 13g/14G are not going to withstand my 50 pound battery rear rack mount with all that weight directly over the wheel. I usually ride around 25-30 MPH but on big down hills I like to go about 40 MPH. Fastest I've ever been able to go. I am worried about spokes BREAKING are these little spokes REALLy going to WORK better?

Yes. The wheel's strength is in the rim. Spokes are supportive, but only as long as they maintain tension on them. When they go slack, as thick spokes do easily when the wheel carries a load, they can no longer support the rim.

The bike I have on which I've gone the fastest has 14ga (2mm) spokes in one wheel and 15ga (1.8mm) in the other. I've had the wheels for about 24 years now and they've accumulated a lot of miles. There was a time when I could hit 55 mph going downhill to work on any given day. I weighed almost 400 pounds at that time. But I've never broken a single spoke in these wheels.

The second oldest wheels in active service on my bikes (over twenty years), with even more gross mileage accumulated, have 15-16ga (1.8/1.6mm) butted spokes. I haven't broken any of those either.

also do hub motors require different bracing angles for drive and non drive side? Doesn't seem like it my motor is so huge that even a giant 15 speed cassette could fit on there if it were compatible and I had the cash

Whether a hub motor wheel needs to be dished depends on its flange and axle spacing. Manufacturers could design hubs in a way that makes them symmetrical to lace up, but in practice they don't. Every rear hub motor wheel I've ever built was dished (offset), and most of the front ones too.

How many speeds you can use is a function of the hub's axle spacing, not the size of the hub. 8, 9, and 10 speed cassettes (which are all the same width) are about 4mm wider than 7 speed cassettes, and about 2mm narrower than 11 speed. Hub motors usually have such narrowly spaced flanges that small changes in axle spacing require large changes in spoke tension to keep the rim centered. I recommend using the narrowest right side rear axle spacing possible, to allow the left side spokes as much tension as they can get.

 

[99t4]

upon closer inspection examining the spoke eyelet holes and the flanges... the damage isn't all that bad it seems. Wolf could be right but since I have the tool it won't hurt to lower the entire tension of the wheel. Just a quarter turn on all the nipples will do it.

Well that there sure looks like a crack forming. Realize that it is not going to heal itself or otherwise get any better no matter how much wishful thinking you aim at it; it is only going to get worse. Not a good place to start from, especially given your high speed/concentrated weight environment (nothing wrong with speed/concentrated weight but the equipment needs to up to the task):

...withstand my 50 pound battery rear rack mount with all that weight directly over the wheel. I usually ride around 25-30 MPH but on big down hills I like to go about 40 MPH.

Get a new rim and start over with thinner spokes (as Chalo recommends). Do you understand the (at first seemingly counter-intuitive) reasoning why the thinner spokes make for a stronger overall bicycle wheel yet? Chalk it up to the steep learning curve you have chosen. Wheel building is an art-- no one should expect to get it perfect the first few times, unless they luck out. :wink:

ETA: OK I see you understand the thinner spokes/stronger wheel theory according to your recent post here:
https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1738630#p1738630

Looks like you are doing frequent inspections and tunings. This may be sufficient to avoid catastrophe.

 

[MarkJohnston]

No I'm going to ride that rim until i can't anymore, either a spoke rips out or it goes wildly out of true. I slow down cosiderably on nasty peices of road. Avoid pot holes.

Can anybody chime in about the correct tension? 172 KGF seems too high. My park tool TM1 seems calibrated though

 

[MarkJohnston]

Well what you guys said would happen, happened. The rim where I over tightened the spokes now has constantly breaking spokes. I break spokes all the time. I have plenty of spare spokes from another hub motor which was totaled, just keep swapping them out. The wheel comes out of true every month or so, depending on how much riding I am doing. These are the larger 12G spokes you guys hate.

Should I replace the rim? I've been holding off because it was $130 last time, as cheap as I could get it. I couldn't even get the wheel true and I got the wrong size spokes. I don't want to put any more more money into this build, because I am sick and tired of sore shoulders and arms, because often I ride 50 miles a day. My hands are getting destroyed from constantly cycling all the time. I think it's time to get a car again. Honestly I need and want an electric motorcycle, but obviously cannot and will probably not have one for at least 20 years.

It will be some time before I can buy a car though, so in the mean time this is what I've got. IS it absolute necessary to replace the rim or should I just keep doing what I am doing? Swapping out spokes and truing the wheel on the go? I've gotten pretty good at truing wheels out of the stand. I can never seem to get the wheel perfectly true, honestly I'VE never been able to get a wheel perfectly laterally true, and CERTAINLY never been able to get a wheel radially true AT ALL.

I will follow the recommendations laid out here though if someone cares to lay them out.

Thank you

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Do you understand the (at first seem counter intuitive) reasoning why the thinner spokes make for a stronger overall bicycle wheel yet?

It doesn't make the wheel stronger. What it is does is make the wheel more durable at the expense of stiffness and strength.

However, if the thicker spokes start going slack sooner (than the same wheel build with thinner butted spokes) because the rim is too flexible then the strength and stiffness advantage begins to go away as more and more spokes lose tension.

 

[MarkJohnston]

It doesn't make the wheel stronger. What it is does is make the wheel more durable at the expense of stiffness and strength.

However, if the thicker spokes start going slack sooner (than the same wheel build with thinner butted spokes) because the rim is too flexible then the strength and stiffness advantage begins to go away as more and more spokes lose tension.

Yeah the thicker spokes went slack as soon as I hit the gravel. Road was fine, but too many bumps and they go fast.

I then overtightened pretty sure I destroyed the rim. I can't see any cracks on the outside of rim. Its so much work to take off an ebike wheel and armored tire, I haven't even looked to see the inside of the rim. My hands have been hurting for months now. Way overworked.

 

[Chalo]

It doesn't make the wheel stronger. What it is does is make the wheel more durable at the expense of stiffness and strength.

If a wheel will carry more weight and take heavier hits more reliably, without things going wrong with it, is that not a stronger wheel? It is in the ways that matter to us.

Thicker spokes are stronger spokes, but they make weaker wheels when they are used with bicycle rims. Until the rim is massive enough that thick spokes can be turned up to the same kgf/mm² as a thinner spoke, they make the wheel less able to carry load.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

If a wheel will carry more weight and take heavier hits more reliably, without things going wrong with it, is that not a stronger wheel? It is in the ways that matter to us.

A wheel with higher stiffness will always carry more weight if subjected through a series of different steady state loadings (e.g. long sweeping constant radius turn at high road speed)

However, it's durability may not be as good as one with lower stiffness when hitting even small bumps even when relatively unloaded. This if the rim lacks sufficient radial and lateral stiffness.

So the wheel with stiffer spokes ends up being stronger but less durable.

Best thing to do is get a rim that supports the rider's lateral and radial stiffness goals. I remember back in 2020 Velocity USA told me the spoke bed on the NoBS rim was strong enough support up to 12 gauge spokes....however, it needed to be ordered from Velocity USA with custom drilling to fit a 12 gauge nipple.

 

[Chalo]

A wheel with higher stiffness will always carry more weight if subjected through a series of different steady state loadings (e.g. long sweeping constant radius turn at high road speed)

I think you still don't get it. Spokes only pull. Because loading on a wheel is compressive, spokes don't add stiffness; in-plane stiffness comes only from the rim, stabilized by the spokes (and thinner spokes are more supportive).

Thick spokes can slightly stiffen the wheel to side loads, but at the expense of making the wheel weaker to normal in-plane loads. Yes, weaker, because a slack spoke is the same as a missing spoke in terms of its effect on the wheel structure. And thick spokes go slack at lower loads.

Shortly after the pedicab outfit I sometimes work for started selling extra heavy duty wheels with 2.0/1.8mm butted spokes on my recommendation, another USA pedicab manufacturer started offering superficially comparable wheels with 2.7mm spokes. Since then, ours have become the gold standard for festival pedicabs with six passenger seats (often loaded up with additional people on laps and/or camping gear), and pedicabbers have given up on the competitors' thick spoked wheels because they can't be made reliable.

 

[99t4]

If a wheel will carry more weight and take heavier hits more reliably, without things going wrong with it, is that not a stronger wheel? It is in the ways that matter to us.

Thank You for that, Chalo.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I think you still don't get it. Spokes only pull. Because loading on a wheel is compressive, spokes don't add stiffness; in-plane stiffness comes only from the rim, stabilized by the spokes (and thinner spokes are more supportive).

Thick spokes can slightly stiffen the wheel to side loads, but at the expense of making the wheel weaker to normal in-plane loads. Yes, weaker, because a slack spoke is the same as a missing spoke in terms of its effect on the wheel structure. And thick spokes go slack at lower loads.

Spokes do add stiffness both in the radial direction and in the lateral direction. Just grab an old rim without spokes and you will see just how easy it is to compress it. (Yes spokes only pull, but it is the resistance to stretching that keeps the wheel from collapsing). This is why you also see spoked motorcycle wheel use very very thick spokes (and not bicycle spokes) despite a very stiff and heavy rim. The stiffness of the rim is a combination of the stiffness of the spokes and the rim together.

 

[Chalo]

Spokes do add stiffness both in the radial direction and in the lateral direction. Just grab an old rim without spokes and you will see just how easy it is to compress it. (Yes spokes only pull, but it is the resistance to stretching that keeps the wheel from collapsing). This is why you also see spoked motorcycle wheel use very very thick spokes (and not bicycle spokes) despite a very stiff and heavy rim. The stiffness of the rim is a combination of the stiffness of the spokes and the rim together.

You should seek out a Von Mises or other force diagram of a loaded spoked wheel. If you can understand what it shows, you'll know that there isn't nearly enough change in tension outside the area above the contact patch for thick spokes to make a difference, and that the change in tension at the contact patch is all lower, not higher. There simply isn't a mechanism by which chonky spokes can detectably change the radial stiffness of the wheel. Keep in mind that whenever spokes slacken under load, the length of unsupported spans of rim increases-- which does subtract stiffness.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

You should seek out a Von Mises or other force diagram of a loaded spoked wheel. If you can understand what it shows, you'll know that there isn't nearly enough change in tension outside the area above the contact patch for thick spokes to make a difference, and that the change in tension at the contact patch is all lower, not higher. There simply isn't a mechanism by which chonky spokes can detectably change the radial stiffness of the wheel. Keep in mind that whenever spokes slacken under load, the length of unsupported spans of rim increases-- which does subtract stiffness.

You keep on bringing up thick spokes slackening under load.....but this only happens when using rims with poor radial stiffness. Choosing those types of rims is going to force you into always compromising your lateral stiffness which is especially bad if you using a hub motor with narrow flange spacing like the OP is using.