Replace RadCity SW LCD with SW 900 LCD

A

AHicks

10 kW
Joined
Jul 24, 2018
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757
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Snowbird
New RadCity, love the bike itself, but the SW LCD control functions are very limited (understatement). Much prefer and used to those available with the SW 900 LCD.

I'm willing to spring for the new LCD, but have a question regarding compatibility with the Rad motor controller. Wondering if anyone has made the same or a similar mod? Note: I'm good with the idea that the connectors are not going to interchange. At best, expecting much of the color coding will be similar.

I'm almost tempted to buy a complete 26" hub kit that would include the far superior SW900, AND a 1500 watt hub that would double the available power of the stock hub.

I do all of my own work, so will likely never use the warranty. Those matters a moot point.

Ideas/suggestions welcome. Thanks
 
Well, Radbikes uses custom-programmed controllers, which don't have much in the way of settings available to be changed. My guess is you'll have to replace the controller and the LCD at the same time to actually be able to change settings other than whatever is available in the original LCD.

Cvin (another member here) wanted to change just basic stuff like current limits/etc on a Rad bike, and the entire controller/LCD had to be replaced. (in that case because connectors/wiring on the new one from Rad weren't compatible with the rest of the bike's existing stuff, so teh whole wiring harness, brake levers, etc had to be changed out as Cvin wanted no splicing/etc).

You could get lucky and it works like you want, or perhaps they didn't do it the same way on the bike you have.

Best bet is to ask Radbikes first.
 
Thinking it's not going to be real difficult to guess what Rad is going to say about modifying any part of their design. The word "heresy" comes to mind....

Trying to minimize/eliminate the "luck" factor going into this. I'm OK with modifying the harness as required. That kind of thing doesn't bother me. The brake handles for instance, those are simple 2 wire on-off switches. The thing that concerns me is more about the electronics. Like the parts where the settings are held. I don't know enough about them, or even where they are at! The amount of regen, or max wattage, for instance. Is that held in the controller, or in the LCD? Anyway, that's why I was hoping for somebody that's been there/done that to be around, or somebody that knows a lot more about it than I do.

If I need to change the controller, I think I'd just get an entire hub kit. Doubling the available power, from the stock 750 watts to a possibly more efficient 1500 watts, would help make the project a little more justifiable.

Thanks for the input!
 
I think Cvin was going for *lower* power, more of just an assist and less of a motor-powered bike, so rather opposite of what you may be after.

I actually have the nearly complete wiring harness/controller/LCD Cvin took off, since there wasnt' any use for it on anything else. If I had one of the other LCDs I could do the test you want to do, but unfortunately I don't.

I do have an LCD from a completely different kit manufacturer (Fusin, no longer around) that looks just about identical, but I don't know if it's even compatible.

I am tempted to test that, though....

Personally I suspect the controller has more to do with what the LCD can do/change than the LCD itself, but not having the stuff to swap around and test with, couldn't say for sure.


FWIW, there is a set of projects / threads by Casainho and others to rewrite the controller and LCD software on a few different controller systems tobe much more user-programmable. You might look thru his posts to see if any of these projects are compatible with the hardware you have (you may have to open the controller and see which MCU it has on the board).

If you're considering replacing the whole kit anyway, you wouldn't have much to lose by trying out that project firmware (if yours turns out to be compatible).
 
Will pull the controller to see if I can find some sort of ID, then use that info to see if I can find any data for it. The fact the existing LCD is a SW, and the one I want to use is an SW as well, gives me hope for the project.

Went for a 20 mile ride today, lots of mid size hills/rolling terrain. Am pretty disappointed with the bike as is. There seems like there's a long delay from the time I ask for additional power (to help climb a hill for instance) until it actually starts delivering it. This means a lot of lost momentum, and a good chance the throttle will be wide open (showing 750 watt drain) just 25% of the way up the hill (with me pedaling like hell!). Almost like it's charging a big capacitor or something. I don't remember my other bikes doing that at all. Suppose too though, it might have something to do with the fact this bike is down 250 watts from what I'm used to? At this point, not sure what to blame/where the issue is.

Big question is, do I mess with it and try and find the issue, or just yank all the electronics and do another Leaf Bike conversion? They (LeafBike) have a new 18 mosfet controller rated for 1800 watts. Just a few bucks more than the one supplied with the 1000 watt conversions (that has 8-10 mosfets). Sounds nice and heavy duty, especially if it will handle some heavy duty short term regen on occasion. Hate those big hills with a stop sign at the bottom!
 
If it has a delay in increasing power, there is probably a "throttle ramp", meaning it's programmed to slowly increase power.

There might be settings for that, but it's just as likely that they're not accessible to the user, only at the factory.

It's possible that your Rad uses the LiShui (Li Shui, LS) controller, which I've seen before including on Cvin's bike. I don't have any detailed info on them, but if you search on those names in the forum you'll find a number of posts/threads about various versions.
 
Yes, exactly. I think your "throttle ramp" is what I know as a soft start. Either way you dice it, likely has something to do with how much torque is being applied to the axle. The reason clean installs would always use a torque arm.

Been doing a LOT of reading. Turns out I am not after an SW 900 LCD after all. From what I see, they have no more control than what I have. The one I'm after is the KT-LCD3. That's the one I'm used to - which I thought was the same as an SW900. Learn something new every day.

Turns out guys with Sonders bikes like this conversion as well, which also requires the use of a new controller - which answers another question I had....

Now looking into a complete kit, that I can afford, that includes regen. If I have to change out all the electronics to do what I need to do to get the control I'm after, I might just as well double the wattage rating on the hub while I'm at it.

Thanks so much for the guidance! This Endless Sphere e-bike rookie really appreciates it. -Al
 
If you do use a KT controller, as long as it's the right model/series, you can also use one of the Casainho-thread projects to replace it's firmware with much more customizable stuff. :)
 
After spending an hour trying to find any info I half way understood in user Casainho "speak", I realized you may have been kidding. Though I admire his electronic abilities, his stuff is WAY over my head....

I did, somehow, find reference to the manf of the KT series controllers. Looking through the available options, found a controller that would imitate a sine wave controller, and had plenty of extra headroom/capacity for my planned 1500 watt hub here:
http://www.szktdz.com/en/news_show.php?article_id=502

I believe this same manf produces the KT LCD3 that can be used to easily access the advanced controller functions I was looking for (without having to reflash or update the firmware/software/whatever!).

From there, it was a matter of tracking down a US source, to avoid the 100 dollar freight bill from China.

I did that here:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/48V-1500W-E-Bike-Conversion-Kit-Hub-Motor-26-Rear-Wheel-with-LCD-Display/322775038659?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

and after bugging the owner with various questions that he answered very patiently, ordered the kit today.
 
AHicks said:
After spending an hour trying to find any info I half way understood in user Casainho "speak", I realized you may have been kidding. Though I admire his electronic abilities, his stuff is WAY over my head....
Click to expand...
No, not kidding, but I haven't kept up with it all in detail so don't know how far they've gotten in making it user-friendly to upgrade firmware and setup options.

I don't know if their firmware will give you the options you want, but I'd guess it's more likely than the stock KT firmware.

I'd guess you might have to talk to one of those using it already, in those threads, and see if they can give a simple "how to" on it, if you're interested.

But you should try out the new kit as-is first. If it doens't have the options you're after, then you could still pursue the alternate firmware stuff. :)
 
Amberwolf, you've been around a while and know a lot more about this than I ever will. So let me ask you a question if you have an extra minute or 2? Are you familiar with the stock/factory P and C parameter options available using an LCD3 LCD and a KT series controller?

So we're on the same page, here's a copy of the current manual (as I know it, shows parameters through C14, earlier manuals sometimes only get up to 11 or 12), good stuff starts on page 16. Fairly easy reading, not too technical, some "chinglish" translation required, but not too bad.

https://880b28d3d003e6b1c176-ee9159906b823979ce618332e73bec87.ssl.cf4.rackcdn.com/other/en_KT-LCD3.pdf

These capabilities in mind, available from first power up (with no updating), do you still think it worth the trouble to come up to speed/compare notes with what user Casainho is doing? I ask as I don't know what more to want or even ask for.

Thanks a ton for your patience/guidance here. It's really appreciated. -Al

PS, if anyone else has any input here, would love to hear from you as well.
 
Ahicks, it seems like you're getting something like the S12S 12 mosfet 25A controller. Mine (from BMSBattery) is mostly air inside. The big case was needed to be long enough for the 12 MOSFET's. The circuit board on mine is only 2/3 the width of the case.

All the settings for the C and P in an LCD3 are impressive at first sight, but when you're done, about all you really can do is turn on throttle to be active always, set the LVC a little lower (or higher), and throttle down current a little bit. There is really little else in the performance category to program. The main thing is that you have twelve MOSFET's, not the six in the S06S from BMSBattery or the similar sine wave models from PSWpower.

Too bad about the Radcity, but it is a smaller DD motor? Gives away the hills, I guess.
 
AHicks said:
Are you familiar with the stock/factory P and C parameter options available using an LCD3 LCD and a KT series controller?
Click to expand...
I'm afraid not. I've read a bit about them in various KT / Kunteng / Kun Teng threads, and have poked around at the Casainho project threads but not followed them intensely, simply because these do have some alterable settings (where most generic controllers don't, or require you to program them via USB/serial on a computer, and can't do this while out and about riding).

But I don't know enough to help. There are various threads that go into more detail about what the settings mean in various versions of the controllers (as they are not all the same, so they don't all respond to the settings the same way, or even all have them all available, which is part of why I didnt keep up with the threads very much). But you'd have to poke around for those threads, whcih is difficult with the search engine setup the way it is. :(




These capabilities in mind, available from first power up (with no updating), do you still think it worth the trouble to come up to speed/compare notes with what user Casainho is doing? I ask as I don't know what more to want or even ask for.
Click to expand...
For that, you'd be best off to ask in the main KT controller project thread, so those with experience could help. I wish I knew the answers to help you right here. :/
 
docw009 said:
Ahicks, it seems like you're getting something like the S12S 12 mosfet 25A controller. Mine (from BMSBattery) is mostly air inside. The big case was needed to be long enough for the 12 MOSFET's. The circuit board on mine is only 2/3 the width of the case.

All the settings for the C and P in an LCD3 are impressive at first sight, but when you're done, about all you really can do is turn on throttle to be active always, set the LVC a little lower (or higher), and throttle down current a little bit. There is really little else in the performance category to program. The main thing is that you have twelve MOSFET's, not the six in the S06S from BMSBattery or the similar sine wave models from PSWpower.

Too bad about the Radcity, but it is a smaller DD motor? Gives away the hills, I guess.
Click to expand...

Doc,
I could deal with the smaller motor. I was prepared for that. It was the lack of control over it that drove me to action. From there, if I'm going to get my hands dirty, I'm going to do it the best way I know how. With the experience gained doing 2 LCD3/KTcontroller conversions I've done already, going with info I know.

Thing that made me craziest was the time it took for the motor to start giving me a hand when asked for (soft start/throttle ramp up issue), and the Sw900 trip meter resets every time the power is cycled, making it near impossible to track the miles you have on a charge.

So at minimum, in addition to the features you mention, KT system also offers remedies to the ramp up and trip meter issues, and additionally offers a usable cruise control, and ability to customize levels of regen.

Controller is the KT 10A66, w/12 Mosfets, 40a max, and 2880w max.
http://www.szktdz.com/en/news_show.php?article_id=502

I get the part about the can holding a lot of air, but if they feel they need for something that size, guessing it also has something to do with heat dissipation? Bike is often used in a coastal area with plenty of hills, so the control's ability to handle heat is important to me.

Not a speed demon. I'm very happy with the 20mph speed limit. Way more concerned about handling heat while lugging up long hills and dealing with the regen when coming down those same long hills (I understand there's a lot of heat developed there as well?), many of which feature a stop sign at the bottom!

So, all this in mind, what is that I am missing regarding potential performance and/or features that I might find wading through, trying to understand info on 100 pages of techno speak only an electrical engineer can follow?

Grateful big time for any insight or guidance. -Al
 
That would be upgradeS with an S now!
The upgrade to the KT components is exactly what Kyle Bolton is now supplying in kit form for the RAD bikes, and very popular with those that have installed it. The difference between his kit and what I did are the connectors. His kit is plug and play using all of the OEM connectors. I see that as a mixed blessing as it does offer somebody that might be electrically challenged the chance to just plug in much better performing electronics (IMHO). Downside to his kit being I was able to beef things up in the area of the battery and controller to something a little heavier than OEM.

The 1500w direct drive hub was very successful as well - to a point. Though it offered an incredible top end (40 mph bursts), my usage is more about much slower speeds. I rarely even run 20 mph. I also enjoy maxing out my battery mileage, so I pay attention to my speed. Not in any hurry, so I'm generally riding in PAS 1 or maybe 2 on a windy day, while using different gears as necessary to provide what I can/feel like at the moment. I also found the DD lacking in long hills which we see on occasion. This is where I felt it lacking most.

So, enter the MAC 12t from EM3ev. Others sell the MAC motors, but nobody else sells the 12t. It's wound with low end toque in mind and not recommended for speeds over 20-25mph. Because most of my riding is done at low speeds (well under 20 mph for the most part) and with the frequent hills found in a coastal area, I wanted to try a gear driven rear hub. From what I was able to gather while doing research, the MAC 12t geared hub pretty much demanded the most respect for it's abilities at low speeds.

Done just recently, this was a marriage made in heaven. I was able to swap motors to the 12t with no other changes to the bike, other than adding an external speed sensor. The original would register the speed, but the speed would drop to 0 when coasting. The new speed sensor fixes that issue. Everything else remains the same, giving me the chance to do a heads up all else equal comparison. For my purposes, the gear drive wins hands down. The ONLY downside is I've lost regen. While not much of a factor for flatlanders, in the hills it's a very desirable attribute. The gear drive is no noisier than the direct drive, and I may be using a hair less power. I find the MAC just kind of powers through short sections where I would have to downshift earlier.

There may be yet ANOTHER upgrade in my future, we'll see. That would be the GMAC with a proportional braking set up. With what I now know about the MAC, that may be the ultimate setup - for MY purposes! -Al
 
I love the bike. It's surely taught me a TON! Even with all the mods I've done, it's still reasonably priced, especially since you'll go a LONG way to find something comparable. There's very little anywhere to make anyone think it's not a Class II production bike!

Phaserunner + GMAC = potential for serious fun..... and it would still look like a production bike. Not something that's going to draw a lot of attention. Not any more than any other e-bike anyway. -Al
 
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