reverse operation with Crystalyte V2 controller

[hejo]

Hi,

rkosiorek posted some time ago a picture showing a DSP pad on the V2 controller which, shortened against GND should reverse direction of motor.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3896&p=68174&hilit=DSP+pad#p68174

Since i have to operate the motor in reverse direction for my trike, i tried this,
but surprisingly i get only 40% of the rated speed.
The moto runs smoothly, no rippling, no higher current.
but only at low speed.
Any reason for this ?
What could i do?
Re. chaning direction by changing hall and phase wires of motor
Is there a safe method (without trying many possible dangerous combinations) to get proper reverse operation?

 

[fechter]

Interesting.
Perhaps it's designed to limit the speed in reverse for 'safety'?

You can reverse it by changing the motor wire connections. I wish I could tell you exactly the color combination for reverse, but I'm not sure about it. I do know you need to change both hall and phase wires.

I would try this combination: Watch the current carefully when testing.

Hall wires-
Controller Motor
Blk Blk
Red Red
Yel Yel
Grn Blu
Blu Grn

Phase wires-
Blu Yel
Grn Grn
Yel Blu


Has anyone else rewired a motor to run backward?

 

[The7]

Are you using an Crystalyte 4xxx/5xxx motor?

Kelly controller has such feature:
"Max reverse speed is configurable to half of max forward speed"

 

[hejo]

Thanks guys,

i am using the 409 Crystalyte motor.
It would have been too easy to just use this one wire to reverse the motor.
But i do not need both directions,
thus i am going to connect the controller to my adjustable power supply, limit the current to 2-3Amps and try / test the combinations of motor / hall wires to obtain the right direction.

At least it should be known that the digital V2 controllers from Crystalyte /not having a reverse switch anymore) cannot be reversed by just using this DSP pin/pad.

 

[hejo]

here is a pic of my drive system.

 

[The7]

Very good drive system for trike!

Noted that the trike is moving forward when the C-motor is rotating in reverse.
Trike forward => C-motor reverse.

The C-controller should be 100% match in colour wiring with the C-motor.
This means if the colour wiring is 100% match, you should set the C-contoller in reverse for trike forward direction.
For trike reverse, select the C-controller forward.
In this way, you should get identical speed in forward and reverse directions.

I have studied about the relative time space between the Hall signals and the phase BEMF of the C-motor. There is an 60 deg difference between the forward and reverse. The reverse switch is configurated for the C-motor with the 100% colour wiring match.

If the colour wiring is NOT 100% match, it will creat a phase angle giving a low power factor. If it is treated as a 3-phase motor, the output power will be proportional to the power factor of about 0.5 (cosine 60 deg = 0.5).

It was discovered by Fechter(?) that the reverse switch could not be used to reverse the gearless BMC motor. This 60 deg difference, together with the 20 deg phase in BMC itself, may give a very, very low power factor (say cos (60+20) = 0.17)). Sometime it may lead to a high motor current.

So this reverse switch is NOT for every motor.

 

[hejo]

this was just fine with previous version 1 controller from Crystalyte.
I wished i had the reverse switch as on the V1 controller!
But the new V2 controller does not have this switch!
There is a pad on the PCB called DSP which, shorted to GND should reverse the direction,
however this leads to just half the speed. Not usable.
Tonight i am going to test phase and hall wiring to obtain a suitable combination for reverse operation.

 

[The7]

So it sounds that the colour wiring of the V1 and V2 are different if they are used to connect to C-motor!?

1) Have you used the V1 on this trike before? Did you test its reverse switch?

2) How do you wire up the V2 controller to the C-motor for trike forward?
100% colour matching?

 

[hejo]

yes, i have used the V1 controller with 408 motor, 5303 motor, all in colour matching mode, just operated the reverse switch to acommodate it to my trike. No problem.
Now i have received from the German distributor a complete set (409 motor + 72V 25A controller V2, original wiring (color-matching) it operates forward, thus in lack of the reverse switch i cant change direction.
Surprisingly the German Distributor even stated, that it is not possible to use this controller for reverse operation.
I emailed Crystalyte, but no response from Kenny so far.
Tonight i am going to try different colour combis and shall report.

 

[The7]

yes, i have used the V1 controller with 408 motor, 5303 motor, all in colour matching mode, just operated the reverse switch to acommodate it to my trike. No problem.

Thanks for the clarification.
My statement only matches the V1. This means that you did use the C-controller "reverse" to rotate the C-motor in reverse in order to drive the trike forward.

Now i have received from the German distributor a complete set (409 motor + 72V 25A controller V2, original wiring (color-matching) it operates forward, thus in lack of the reverse switch i cant change direction.

It sounds strange that 100% colour match will rotate the C-motor in reverse for the V2!??

The colour code for V2 seems NOT to be the same as V1 !??

 

[hejo]

the V2 set ( V2 controller + motor) just plug and played, operates in normal forward operation!
I have to run it in revers on my trike a ssenn on the picture.
This unfortunately i could not realise yet :

DSP pad put to ground causes the drive to run in reverse, but only less than half speed.

I tried so far about 8 wiring possibilities (phases and hall) using the Excel sheet provided here

Phase-Hall-Wire-Combinations%20aa.xls

surprisingly all the combinations lead to forward operation, with one exception :

phases :

blue - yellow
green - blue
yellow - green

this turns reverse, but vibrating, could not find a suitable non vibrating hall combination.

I did not have much time yesterday (Germany surprisingly won the soccer match against Portugal) thus celebration was due!
Shall continue trying and reporting

 

[rkosiorek]

never had a chance to use the "Reverse" on the V2 controller. but the one that i have from Crystalyte came with a pair of wires going out to 2 pin connector labeled "Reverse". i know of one customer in texas who has a dozen of these all with the same connector.

the two wires are connected to the "DSP" pad and the B- pads inside of the controller. this is the way it came wired from the Crystalyte factory.

i think that The7 is wrong. the hall sensors and the phase wires are the correct color code. otherwise the motor either would not start from all positions or would run rough when switched to reverse. it does not. it runs smoothly and with good power, just it will not run faster than about 40% throttle.

i think that this is intentional. it is meant for use on trikes when a reverse is desired. and normally when you are backing up you want to do it slowly.

when i get a chance this weekend i will try to reassemble the V2 controller and try it.

rick

 

[The7]

i think that The7 is wrong. the hall sensors and the phase wires are the correct color code. otherwise the motor either would not start from all positions or would run rough when switched to reverse.

Please note that the drive mechanism of the e-tirke is contructed in such that that " the trike is moving forward while the C-motor is rotating in reverse" .

Will the trike move forward if the color code is 100% match without using the "reverse" in the V2 controller?

Glad to hear from your test when done.

 

[hejo]

I finally got it to work, but only with this combination :
Hall Wires
Control Motor
B Y
G G
Y B

Phase Wires
Control Motor
B B
G G
Y Y

I tried all the combis listed in the xls sheet recently posted.
I did not use the reverse (DSP) pad anymor, because this is just slowmotion.

The motor everything was nicely running,
but after some cleaning up in wiring the motor did not run at all anymore.
Thought the controller is faulty i changed the controller, same result.
It was the motor .
Since i am scared to open it (is there any special instruction how to withdraw the side plates (in which order) to get access to the insides to check wires / hall sensors ?)
i decided to use another motor i had (i believe it is a BMC motor.
I tried really all combinations listed in "Phase-Hall-Wires-Combinations.xls" but no chance!
None of the combis results in a smooth run, no forward, no reverse operation!

Not a good weekend

 

[Johnbear]

where is this spread sheet, Phase-Hall-Wires-Combinations.xls - I've been searching, no luck, any help?

 

[The7]

Here it is:

 

[Johnbear]

Thank you very much!

 

[micart671]

Thanks so much fechter,

The perfect combination, worked with crystalyte x5304 motor and unknown controller.

hall sensor;
Y - Y
B - G
G - B

Phase wires;
B - Y
G - G
Y - B

Ya gotta love this forum.

Funny thing is the customer came in saying, "it doesn't go that quick forwards, but you should see it in reverse!"