So I bought an Ego-Kit,the 3400W one. Worst Idea Ever. HELP!
- Thread starter tuu
- Start date
izeman
1 GW
ok. thanks for testing again. makes more sense. one broken group. as this group is most probably down at zero volts for month now i don't see a chance reactivating it. even if you could reactivate it, it will NEVER compete with the other groups. it will have much less capacity and lower current capability.
but maybe it's worth trying to charge it, observing it while doing so.
do you have some rc-charging equipment? or at least a nokia cell phone charger and a soldering iron? nokia charger because they charge to 3.7v which is safe for 18650. going to 5v like a regular usb charger will be too high in case you don't look at it all the time. on the other hand: charging the dead group with a cell phone charger takes AGES anyway
if you think of 300mA charge it will need 17.000/300=56h until full. with 500mA it's still 34h. *lol*
so: do you have a soldering iron, a nokia charger, and a 2pin header that will fit into the balancing plug? two thin solid wires will do as well. an rc-charger is still prefered.
but maybe it's worth trying to charge it, observing it while doing so.
do you have some rc-charging equipment? or at least a nokia cell phone charger and a soldering iron? nokia charger because they charge to 3.7v which is safe for 18650. going to 5v like a regular usb charger will be too high in case you don't look at it all the time. on the other hand: charging the dead group with a cell phone charger takes AGES anyway
if you think of 300mA charge it will need 17.000/300=56h until full. with 500mA it's still 34h. *lol*
so: do you have a soldering iron, a nokia charger, and a 2pin header that will fit into the balancing plug? two thin solid wires will do as well. an rc-charger is still prefered.
emcee
100 mW
It looks like you may have a wire disconnected. I threw the numbers you gave into excel to make sure i'm not going mad.
It could save you alot of headache if thats all it was. It could be a bad connection at the plug or the cells or the wire might be severed somewhere in between
48.3 ---4
44.3 ---4
40.3 ---4.1
36.2 ---4
32.2 ---4
28.2 ---4
24.2 ---4.1
20.1 ---4
16.1 ---4.1
12 -----4
8 ------0.1
7.9 ----0
7.9 ----4
3.9 ----3.9
It could save you alot of headache if thats all it was. It could be a bad connection at the plug or the cells or the wire might be severed somewhere in between
48.3 ---4
44.3 ---4
40.3 ---4.1
36.2 ---4
32.2 ---4
28.2 ---4
24.2 ---4.1
20.1 ---4
16.1 ---4.1
12 -----4
8 ------0.1
7.9 ----0
7.9 ----4
3.9 ----3.9
izeman
1 GW
no can't be. he measured the voltages from the same reference point - GND.
so voltage needs to go up by around 4v per measurement. and it would need to be 14*4v=56v.
but it's 48v. so it seems there are two broken groups.
i just realized that tuu missed two measurements: #10-#11 (or #12-#13) - which obviously is 0v as well
so voltage needs to go up by around 4v per measurement. and it would need to be 14*4v=56v.
but it's 48v. so it seems there are two broken groups.
i just realized that tuu missed two measurements: #10-#11 (or #12-#13) - which obviously is 0v as well
izeman said:i just realized that tuu missed two measurements: #10-#11 (or #12-#13) - which obviously is 0v as well
#10-#11=4.0
#12-#13=0.1
If I'm reading this right the lead #12 is to the bad cells considering #11-#10= 4.0v as well as #13-#14= 3.9v.
izeman said:
No Nokia charger or rc car chargers sitting around. Which RC charger do you recommend I buy so I can move forward?
waynebergman
100 kW
Tuu, I hope things get up and working for you soon.
It's frustrating that a place of business often can respond to a sales inquiry quickly but not give the same attention to detail to serving that same customer when things go wrong.
Its interesting when calling your average place of business as to how long you are put on hold if you are an existing customer compared to when you request to speak to customer service. I am mostly referring to the bigger companies that use the computer automated stuff that asks you to press a certain button if you speak English etc. Drives me crazy.
All the tech stuff here in this thread is baffling to me and over my head but its great to see how the forum here can come to rescue and help a fellow.
Shame on you EGO....at least have the decency to chime in here and say something either in defence or give an apology. I won't be buying any of your stuff any time soon I can say that for sure. I know some vendors that make point of looking out for there names to be mentioned on this forum and then have the decency to say at least SOMETHING in response.
It's frustrating that a place of business often can respond to a sales inquiry quickly but not give the same attention to detail to serving that same customer when things go wrong.
Its interesting when calling your average place of business as to how long you are put on hold if you are an existing customer compared to when you request to speak to customer service. I am mostly referring to the bigger companies that use the computer automated stuff that asks you to press a certain button if you speak English etc. Drives me crazy.
All the tech stuff here in this thread is baffling to me and over my head but its great to see how the forum here can come to rescue and help a fellow.
Shame on you EGO....at least have the decency to chime in here and say something either in defence or give an apology. I won't be buying any of your stuff any time soon I can say that for sure. I know some vendors that make point of looking out for there names to be mentioned on this forum and then have the decency to say at least SOMETHING in response.
izeman
1 GW
tuu said:izeman said:i just realized that tuu missed two measurements: #10-#11 (or #12-#13) - which obviously is 0v as well
#10-#11=4.0
#12-#13=0.1
If I'm reading this right the lead #12 is to the bad cells considering #11-#10= 4.0v as well as #13-#14= 3.9v.
izeman said:
No Nokia charger or rc car chargers sitting around. Which RC charger do you recommend I buy so I can move forward?
i guess i'll give some more battery basics before proceeding.
you're still missing the #11-#12 reading. it's like a daisy chain. the pack voltage increases by every group put in series. so you start with zero volt. between GND and first balance wire you have 4v. the GND wire is connected to negative pole of the first battery. the first balance wire to the positive pole of the first battery, which is the same as the negative pole of the second battery. the second balance wire is the positive pole of the second battery, which is the positive pole of the third battery, and so on and so on.
so you ALWAYS need to measure from one balance wire to the next. but you're leaving out one measurement, as you move your test probes to the next two wires, whereas it should be only one wire steps. do you know what i mean?
we need mesurement of
#8 to #9
#9 to #10
#10 to #11
#11 to #12
#12 to #13
than we can be totally sure which cell groups are damaged.
as you have no charger: there was a cheap one posted in the long post on last page. something like that. it really doesn't matter. you want need it any more, but it comes handy one in a while. $20-$30 on ebay is more than enough. it need to be able to charge lithium chemistry - which this imax is able of.
izeman said:
Again, you guys are rock stars, thanks again for all of the guidance, I really think I may get to use this kit someday.
Here you go, looks like lead 12:
#8 to #9=4.0v
#9 to #10=4.0v
#10 to #11=4.0v
#11 to #12=0.1v
#12 to #13=0.1v
#13 to #14=3.9v
Do you feel this charger fit my needs? It was mentioned before in this post. (its $20 on amazon) Let me know and I'll order it up.
iMAX B6 OEM Battery Balance Charger For 1-6 cell Lipo, Li-ion, LiFe (A123), Pb, 1-15 cells NiCd and NiMH Batteries
Microprocessor controlled Delta-peak sensitivity; Individual cell balancing Li-ion, LiPo and LiFe capable Ni-Cd and NiMH capable
Large range of charge currents Store function, allows safe storage current
Time limit function; Input voltage monitoring. (Protects car batteries at the field)
Data storage (Store up to 5 packs in memory); Battery break in and cycling.
Support new generation A123 system (LiFe) battery
izeman
1 GW
you're welcome
thanks. your measurement confirms that TWO groups are dead. not good, but nothing unsolveable. just more work to replace, and more cells to buy.
the charger looks good. not that i would like to work with it all day long, but it will do the job perfectly fine.
something like those pins in the picture will help you a lot as they should fit directly into the balance plug. unfortunately you only need TWO pins, not 40
these are the cells needed: just in case here's the link:
http://www.amazon.com/2500mah-discharge-Samsung-INR18650-25R-li-ion/dp/B00QKD4V4C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1453564116&sr=8-1&keywords=samsung+25r+18650
thanks. your measurement confirms that TWO groups are dead. not good, but nothing unsolveable. just more work to replace, and more cells to buy.
the charger looks good. not that i would like to work with it all day long, but it will do the job perfectly fine.
something like those pins in the picture will help you a lot as they should fit directly into the balance plug. unfortunately you only need TWO pins, not 40
these are the cells needed: just in case here's the link:
http://www.amazon.com/2500mah-discharge-Samsung-INR18650-25R-li-ion/dp/B00QKD4V4C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1453564116&sr=8-1&keywords=samsung+25r+18650
fellow
1 kW
IMAX B6 stands for maximum of 6 groups (each 4.2V) charging at the same time. There is iMAX B8 too (8 groups of 4.2V each). I recommend to charge one group at the time, until you get familiar with the charger. Balance charging several groups with this charger may be tricky as there is special wiring order (consult your manual). iMAX chargers are suitable because they can show the capacity left thru the discharge menu, but it takes few hours.
[youtube]w8ijfcjU-rc[/youtube]
Make sure to choose the right chemistry in the menu, as Imax B6 supports NiCd and NiMh too.
Check that the power adapter "brick" is included if you do not own a suitable laptop power adapter or similar. There are several different versions of iMAX B6 chargers (original, fake/clone, with internal power adapter, without power adapter...), as said in that youtube video...
Ykick
1 GW
Hey Tuu - have you traced the wires back to the 7P groups and verified the cells in that group are indeed 0V or thereabouts?
If so, why did they drain to 0V? That’s what I’d wanna know before investing in replacement cells. Perhaps the balance bleed transistors shorted on those channels?
That’s about the only scenario which makes sense. Those are good quality cells so the chance of dud is very very low. If they’re indeed 0V, something screwed them up…
Yes, an RC Charger can be very useful but so can scavenging old cellphone 1S lithium battery packs for 1S BMS/PCM circuits that can be powered from USB ports or wall warts to charge single cell voltage Li-ion/Lipoly @ a nice rate.
If so, why did they drain to 0V? That’s what I’d wanna know before investing in replacement cells. Perhaps the balance bleed transistors shorted on those channels?
That’s about the only scenario which makes sense. Those are good quality cells so the chance of dud is very very low. If they’re indeed 0V, something screwed them up…
Yes, an RC Charger can be very useful but so can scavenging old cellphone 1S lithium battery packs for 1S BMS/PCM circuits that can be powered from USB ports or wall warts to charge single cell voltage Li-ion/Lipoly @ a nice rate.
emcee
100 mW
time to peel that BMS off the top and start digging into that battery dude. Once you have it apart you can check everything at the cell level. never hurts to double and triple check.
izeman
1 GW
of course it could also be that the two balance wires don't connect to the battery any more. but how could they have come off? maybe you could measure directly at the battery?
but first of all i would wait for the charger to arrive and see how it behaves. MAYBE you can charge them, then let them sit charged for a day or two and see if it holds charge. if it does, re-connect the balance plug and observe state of charge. if it keeps charge you're fine, if it does not, than the BMS is damaged most probably as it drains down the cell(s).
but first of all i would wait for the charger to arrive and see how it behaves. MAYBE you can charge them, then let them sit charged for a day or two and see if it holds charge. if it does, re-connect the balance plug and observe state of charge. if it keeps charge you're fine, if it does not, than the BMS is damaged most probably as it drains down the cell(s).
www.recumbents.com
10 kW
I think you should be able to use any old cell phone charger to charge the bad cell groups. If you don't have one ask your friends, chances are they have a drawer full of them. When you are charging make sure you to connect the + from the charger to the + of the cell group...
I agree, its time to take that BMS off of the battery pack and look to see what could be shorting out those cells groups before you try to charge them.
Also you may want to send another email to EGO to let them know that two cell groups in the brand new battery that they sold you are bad. Now that you have confirmed its not just a stupid consumer issue they may be more willing to provide a replacement.
Warren
I agree, its time to take that BMS off of the battery pack and look to see what could be shorting out those cells groups before you try to charge them.
Also you may want to send another email to EGO to let them know that two cell groups in the brand new battery that they sold you are bad. Now that you have confirmed its not just a stupid consumer issue they may be more willing to provide a replacement.
Warren
waynebergman
100 kW
For what its worth here is some text pasted from the EGO site........
9. Warranty
Pursuant to clause 10 of these GTC, EGO shall also issue a separate warranty for
its products. However, the legal warranty provisions also apply.
If the purchased product is found to have a defect warranty claims exist for the
customers. These warranty claims must be legally exercised within 2 years. In
accordance with § 932 ABGB the customer is entitled to a correction, an
exchange, a price reduction, the cancelation of the contract, whereby the
customer can initially only request correction, or replacement of the item, unless
a correction, or replacement is impossible, or it is connected with a
disproportionately high expense for EGO. In this case, the customer has a right
to a price reduction or, provided it is not a case of a minor defect, the right to
change. The notice of defects from the customer must be directed to the EGO
directly per Post or e-mail.
The transfer of the warranty claims from the customer to a third party without
the written consent of EGO is not permissible.
The EGO-Kits currently do not yet have a TÜV (Association for Technical
Inspection) or CE certification. The relevant authorizations are still in progress.
The customer is also specifically informed of this on the homepage during
completion of the contract. However, no claims of any kind whatsoever result
from this circumstance for the customer with regard to EGO.
10. Guarantee
EGO guarantees that the product is free from defects in material or processing for
two years from the initial purchase date. This guarantee only applies for the first
buyer and requires a copy of the original proof of purchase in order to be
exercised. In the case of a guarantee claim, the customer must immediately
contact EGO. E-mail: support@ego-kits.com
The user of an EGO-Kit is obliged to exercise care during use and to regular
maintenance of the product. Wear and tear parts must be replaced when required
and in accordance with the manufacturer’s specifications. Included in the EGOKits
guarantee are all
• Manufacturing defects
• Processing errors
• Material defects
Wear and tear parts, normal wear and tear are excluded from the guarantee. For
the normal wear and tear of components that might occur among other things as
a result of proper use, the non-compliance of recommendations from EGO and/or
driving under terms other than those recommended.
The guarantee does not apply for EGO-Kits which are not professionally installed
and/or adjusted by EGO, or in accordance with the assembly instructions. The
EGO-Kit assembly instructions can be found on the internet at www.ego-kits.com.
I guess if they don't respond to your inquiries the above does not mean much. Hopefully you can talk to a real person from EGO to at least give a response to yourself and also inform forum members as to how they treat you when you fill them in on the details of your battery pack.
Best of luck
9. Warranty
Pursuant to clause 10 of these GTC, EGO shall also issue a separate warranty for
its products. However, the legal warranty provisions also apply.
If the purchased product is found to have a defect warranty claims exist for the
customers. These warranty claims must be legally exercised within 2 years. In
accordance with § 932 ABGB the customer is entitled to a correction, an
exchange, a price reduction, the cancelation of the contract, whereby the
customer can initially only request correction, or replacement of the item, unless
a correction, or replacement is impossible, or it is connected with a
disproportionately high expense for EGO. In this case, the customer has a right
to a price reduction or, provided it is not a case of a minor defect, the right to
change. The notice of defects from the customer must be directed to the EGO
directly per Post or e-mail.
The transfer of the warranty claims from the customer to a third party without
the written consent of EGO is not permissible.
The EGO-Kits currently do not yet have a TÜV (Association for Technical
Inspection) or CE certification. The relevant authorizations are still in progress.
The customer is also specifically informed of this on the homepage during
completion of the contract. However, no claims of any kind whatsoever result
from this circumstance for the customer with regard to EGO.
10. Guarantee
EGO guarantees that the product is free from defects in material or processing for
two years from the initial purchase date. This guarantee only applies for the first
buyer and requires a copy of the original proof of purchase in order to be
exercised. In the case of a guarantee claim, the customer must immediately
contact EGO. E-mail: support@ego-kits.com
The user of an EGO-Kit is obliged to exercise care during use and to regular
maintenance of the product. Wear and tear parts must be replaced when required
and in accordance with the manufacturer’s specifications. Included in the EGOKits
guarantee are all
• Manufacturing defects
• Processing errors
• Material defects
Wear and tear parts, normal wear and tear are excluded from the guarantee. For
the normal wear and tear of components that might occur among other things as
a result of proper use, the non-compliance of recommendations from EGO and/or
driving under terms other than those recommended.
The guarantee does not apply for EGO-Kits which are not professionally installed
and/or adjusted by EGO, or in accordance with the assembly instructions. The
EGO-Kit assembly instructions can be found on the internet at www.ego-kits.com.
I guess if they don't respond to your inquiries the above does not mean much. Hopefully you can talk to a real person from EGO to at least give a response to yourself and also inform forum members as to how they treat you when you fill them in on the details of your battery pack.
Best of luck
waynebergman
100 kW
This is also from there site....
STORING THE BATTERY • Store the battery halfway charged (3 illuminated LEDs on the battery display), in a dry place,
at room temperature (never below 5°C/41°F), protected from direct sunlight.
• Check plugs regularly for moisture, corrosion or other damage.
• Store and transport the battery only in fireproof containers. Riding with the EGO-Kit is the only
exception, and the battery should of course be placed in the backpack during this time.
• When not in use, the battery voltage must be checked every four weeks, and, if needed,
be recharged.
In case the battery was not stored properly, or if a deep discharge has occurred, take the battery
to your dealer immediately. The battery has been designed with a special function to save battery
cells that have been severely drained.
NEVER OPEN THE BATTERY !
They say to take the battery to your dealer if its faulty, not sure if your local dealer is an option for you or are you only trying through head office at EGO
STORING THE BATTERY • Store the battery halfway charged (3 illuminated LEDs on the battery display), in a dry place,
at room temperature (never below 5°C/41°F), protected from direct sunlight.
• Check plugs regularly for moisture, corrosion or other damage.
• Store and transport the battery only in fireproof containers. Riding with the EGO-Kit is the only
exception, and the battery should of course be placed in the backpack during this time.
• When not in use, the battery voltage must be checked every four weeks, and, if needed,
be recharged.
In case the battery was not stored properly, or if a deep discharge has occurred, take the battery
to your dealer immediately. The battery has been designed with a special function to save battery
cells that have been severely drained.
NEVER OPEN THE BATTERY !
They say to take the battery to your dealer if its faulty, not sure if your local dealer is an option for you or are you only trying through head office at EGO
izeman
1 GW
normally a battery is seen as wear and tear part
even though the battery had that issue 7mo ago makes a claim now very uncertain. they could argue that he should have claimed his loss immediately, and not doing so caused more harm to the battery than necessary.
this is NOT my argumentation, but tuu should be prepared for that.
i still can't understand why ego didn't reply. they are known to be VERY customer focused, and i can only confirm their high state of customer support.
if you want i could call them and make them aware of your issue?!
emcee
100 mW
'waynebergman said:
define "disproportionately high expense"
izeman
1 GW
even if i posted about the "guarantee" issue, i don't think it makes sense to discuss it here before tuu got a definite reply/answer from ego. maybe the problem will vanish anyhow ...
Ok, so when you measured the whole pack voltage you got 53.4V.
There are 14 cell groups, each of which when fully charged is probably supposed to be 4.2v, maybe 4.1 or even 4.0v (depends on where the BMS cuts off and balances at).
If it is 14s x 4.0v (what most of your cells are at right now) then if it is just broken balance wires, you should read 56.0V on the two main wires coming from the pack to the BMS itself (the big fat red and black wires that come from the actual cells, rather than the ones that go outside the case).
If two cell groups are dead, 0V, and the rest are 4.0v (average), then at 14s there are 12 groups at 4v, and so it should read 48V at those red and black wires.
If you're getting more than that, maybe one of the cell groups that reads 0V at the BMS is really 0V, and the other is just disconnected but actually is reading about the same as the other cells.
You'll have to check at those red and black wires first, and see what that voltage is.
There are 14 cell groups, each of which when fully charged is probably supposed to be 4.2v, maybe 4.1 or even 4.0v (depends on where the BMS cuts off and balances at).
If it is 14s x 4.0v (what most of your cells are at right now) then if it is just broken balance wires, you should read 56.0V on the two main wires coming from the pack to the BMS itself (the big fat red and black wires that come from the actual cells, rather than the ones that go outside the case).
If two cell groups are dead, 0V, and the rest are 4.0v (average), then at 14s there are 12 groups at 4v, and so it should read 48V at those red and black wires.
If you're getting more than that, maybe one of the cell groups that reads 0V at the BMS is really 0V, and the other is just disconnected but actually is reading about the same as the other cells.
You'll have to check at those red and black wires first, and see what that voltage is.
www.recumbents.com
10 kW
Great point Amber. The numbers do not add up. I am thinking that the balance wire that is common to the two cell groups that are reading 0v is not connected to the battery. Those cell groups are low, but probably not zero. All the cells groups you measured were ~4v. You measured 53.4v for the entire pack. Two cell groups were measured to be 0v but if one wire is not connected that is what you'd see. 12 X 4 = 48, so the two funky cell groups are not 0v, they are 5.3v total or 2.65v each. This should be pretty easy to fix.
Warren
Warren
izeman
1 GW
please read the whole thread. he already measured ALL single values and confirmed 48.3V. which is 12 groups at 4.0-4.1V and 2 dead groups - whether they are connected or dead ... but if it was only a loose balance wire then he should still be able to measure FULL pack voltage at the GND and POSITIVE terminal. which seems to be 48.3V as well. 53.4V seems to be the charge output - which is too low for my understanding as well. i don't know what voltage ego charges its batteries to, but 53.4V would be 3.8V which is too low. i would expect 58.8V which is the standard setting for the 14s Nova-360SR.
@tuu: please measure again and confirm!
@tuu: please measure again and confirm!
I appreciate all of your help and interest, while I wait for the battery charger to arrive I wanted to cover a couple points brought up:
waynebergman- The reality is ego is of no help and I dealt directly with one of the owners. I have waited 7 months for them, I will wait no longer. Just to note, I contacted them about this problem within days of receiving my kit, this kit has never worked and they know that.
emcee- has a good point as well, I am on my own on this one.
izeman/amberwolf- 53.4V is my measurement at the output the battery (top and bottom most pictured fat red wires from the BMS) that goes to the bike. (the 48.3v measurement was balance lead #1,bottom red wire)
I will trace wires and look for wire brakes when the charger arrives and update with details asap.
Thanks again everybody!
waynebergman- The reality is ego is of no help and I dealt directly with one of the owners. I have waited 7 months for them, I will wait no longer. Just to note, I contacted them about this problem within days of receiving my kit, this kit has never worked and they know that.
emcee- has a good point as well, I am on my own on this one.
izeman/amberwolf- 53.4V is my measurement at the output the battery (top and bottom most pictured fat red wires from the BMS) that goes to the bike. (the 48.3v measurement was balance lead #1,bottom red wire)
I will trace wires and look for wire brakes when the charger arrives and update with details asap.
Thanks again everybody!
OK little cell charger arrived today and I used that little plastic shim pictured to separate the hot glued covers. What I am left with puzzles me a bit in regards to how to charge and test cells/sets individually, see below. How much more should I dissect? Is anybody familiar with this type of battery case? Will it even come apart without being destroyed? OK enough doom and gloom, here are the pictures: (note the missing upper right case corner in the 1st picture, it was like this when I opened it up and there were extra no loose parts in the whole case, so I can only assume they assembled it broken) 
thoughts?
thoughts?
Jon NCal
1 kW
You don't have to take the welds off. First double check the "bad" cell group voltage with your meter. Then to charge/discharge just use the alligator clips to clamp on where the sense leads are soldered on for the particular parallel cell group. Suggest unplug your sense leads from the circuit board when doing so in case there is a fault. Also test the sense leads back to the circuit board with a meter to help troubleshoot problem.
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