Sturmey Archer IGH with cassette and mid drives

[john61ct]

The hub I was talking about originally has a direct drive middle gear, 1st is lower for hills and 3rd faster.

Can't find a reference to that, can you link to it?

 

[john61ct]

"Nexus Inter 5"

aka SG-C7000

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/component/city---trekking-e-bike-e6100-series/SG-C7000-5D.html

also Inter-5E aka C7050, Gates belt? other options?

https://electricbikereview.com/forum/threads/e-bike-specific-internal-gear-hub-by-shimano-for-2019.26708

 

[wturber]

The hub I was talking about originally has a direct drive middle gear, 1st is lower for hills and 3rd faster.

Can't find a reference to that, can you link to it?

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/internal-gear-theory.html

The common three-speed hubs from Sturmey-Archer, SRAM and Shimano have a single-stage, simple planetary system, with the sun gear locked to the axle. Shifter parts direct power through the planetary system in either direction for step-up and step-down ratios, or drive the hub shell directly for the middle, unity ratio.

 

[minimum]

SA also has 5-speed "heavy duty" IGH:
http://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/products/detail/rx-rk5
Total gear ratio range may be a bit small but looking at the weight, the "heavy duty" might be worth it.

I have destroyed 2 Alfine-8's within last 1,5 months with cyclone3k/nucular. 1st lasted for more than year (until new controller) . Pawls disintegrated. I'm not sure it was due to bad shifting as I was (trying to be) careful when shifting, especially with 2nd one.

 

[john61ct]

The Inter-5 can pair with Di2 for self protective automated shifting

 

[Little Voice]

Yes, a wider spaced 5 speed hub would be great! It really seems not popular as even something like the Pinion C6 has less than 300% range I think - I guess people worry about big jumps between gears a lot.

In terms of strength, I have also put a fair few (3,500km) of hard loaded (200kg) tandem miles on a Nuvinci 380 without any issues to date. It is just very heavy, a bit less efficient and less (380%) than the range the OP is after, but on the plus side, can do a good degree of shifting under load. I would also say that the usable range was more like 360% as it gets less efficient at the extremes but even that is enough to get over mountains if you don't need to go faster than say 20 mph.

I guess this is why they still sell lots of Rohloffs!

Cheers Matmaxged. I think there is a lot o be said for the CVT of Nuvinci keeping the cadence steady and the sports and cargo Envilios being able to take higher torque etc, however there are some downsides too. The completely sealed form of the hub gave me some concerns that they couldn't be maintained, unlike a Sturmey Archer or a Rohloff. It has the same Grease packed into it and can't be changed like other gear hubs. So somewhere in the blurb for Envilio I saw the wording 'lifetime' so I sent them an email to them asking what lifetime meant, as Rohloff say 100,000 km or maybe more with careful use and regular maintenance. The answer I got was not so clear or satisfactory at least for me, I think they guy said they had opened them up after 20,000 miles and tested them and they were OK, which for me didn't inspire confidence, it is not quite a third of the distance Rohloff says, and at over a third of the cost.

 

[matmaxgeds]

Then again you can get greater than 550% range on a 1x these days, maybe that just keeps it all simpler!

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review-ethirteen-trs-12-speed-cassette-offers-a-whopping-556-range.html

I prefer the Box 2, 9 speed cassette for Ebikes, it is cheaper and packs one less gear into the same space allowing a thicker chain. 11-50 teeth sprockets.

Thanks - I didn't know about this one, I also much prefer 9 speed chains but had only seen 11-42 before.

 

[donn]

what lifetime meant, as Rohloff say 100,000 km or maybe more with careful use and regular maintenance.

For me, figures like that just mean "long time". Not a real number such that you could for example say, "will be fine for this trip, I'm at only 80,000 km". The failure rate of this product is sure to be a function of km, but with a broad statistical distribution; within that, 100,000 km is one possibility among others. I can't imagine how they'd know, but if they did, a more useful statistic would be how many will still be OK at 100,000 km. 99%? 90%? 50%? Anyway, when one of them says 100,000 km and another says 20,000 km, to me that just means both last a long time. One might last longer than the other, but it's hard to say for sure.

 

[john61ct]

No for sure, Rohloffs have proven to last a very long time, much longer than others all the rest being equal, and certainly in a high torque context.

Of course MTBF is an average WAG, but still. . .

 

[Little Voice]

No for sure, Rohloffs have proven to last a very long time, much longer than others all the rest being equal, and certainly in a high torque context.

Of course MTBF is an average WAG, but still. . .

Also some of the really old 3 speed Sturmey Archers are going from the 70s and even older ones with care and maintenance. There are videos of old SAs getting restored and still running.

I am not too sure what MTBF and WAG stand for John61ct, care to clarify please?

 

[Little Voice]

Then again you can get greater than 550% range on a 1x these days, maybe that just keeps it all simpler!

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review-ethirteen-trs-12-speed-cassette-offers-a-whopping-556-range.html

I prefer the Box 2, 9 speed cassette for Ebikes, it is cheaper and packs one less gear into the same space allowing a thicker chain. 11-50 teeth sprockets.

Thanks - I didn't know about this one, I also much prefer 9 speed chains but had only seen 11-42 before.

No worries you are welcome, just one of the many options I have come across and looked into in the course of studying up on ebikes
The Box 2's biggest sprocket is not steel and so best not to put too much power through it just in case.
I was unable to find a review of Box 2 ebike version, but a guy who reviewed a non-ebike version showed the chain dropping off the largest sprocket when he back pedalled, there are big jumps in gear ration between each sprocket, so this is something to be aware of also perhaps. Maybe that guy hadn't set up his derailer properly, I don't know.

 

[wturber]

The Box 2's biggest sprocket is not steel and so best not to put too much power through it just in case.

OTOH, there are more teeth to take the force applied by the chain on a larger sprocket. So less material strength is needed. This is probably why we get away with having aluminum chain rings.

 

[donn]

I am not too sure what MTBF and WAG stand for John61ct, care to clarify please?

Mean Time Between Failure and Wild Ass Guess were my associations. Engineering terms of art.

 

[john61ct]

yes

 

[Little Voice]

The Box 2's biggest sprocket is not steel and so best not to put too much power through it just in case.

OTOH, there are more teeth to take the force applied by the chain on a larger sprocket. So less material strength is needed. This is probably why we get away with having aluminum chain rings.

Its true there are more teeth to spread the load on so manufacturers often figure its OK. But there are folks who do try and go full power up steep hills on powerful ebikes at high torque and I have heard of at least a few large sprockets on the back buckling. So I mentioned it as there are many different ebikes out there and so for some it may be something to be careful of

 

[Little Voice]

I am not too sure what MTBF and WAG stand for John61ct, care to clarify please?

Mean Time Between Failure and Wild Ass Guess were my associations. Engineering terms of art.

Thanks very much Donn and John61ct for the clarification on the above point

 

[Little Voice]

The hub I was talking about originally has a direct drive middle gear, 1st is lower for hills and 3rd faster.

Can't find a reference to that, can you link to it?

http://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/products/detail/cs-rk3-black
Gear Ratio
• Overall Range - 177%
• Gear 1 - 75% (Gear 2 - 25%)
• Gear 2 - 100% (Direct Drive)
• Gear 3 - 133% (Gear 2 + 33%)

PLUS it you can put a shimano compatible sprocket cassette on it. They say 8 to 9 speeds but I think smaller spaced larger ones can fit with the cost of a thinner chain.

 

[Little Voice]

SA also has 5-speed "heavy duty" IGH:
http://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/products/detail/rx-rk5
Total gear ratio range may be a bit small but looking at the weight, the "heavy duty" might be worth it.

I have destroyed 2 Alfine-8's within last 1,5 months with cyclone3k/nucular. 1st lasted for more than year (until new controller) . Pawls disintegrated. I'm not sure it was due to bad shifting as I was (trying to be) careful when shifting, especially with 2nd one.

Maybe you need to add a gear senor to stop the motor when changing gears, or tap the breaks (assuming you have brake sensors) before changing gears.
The 3 gears of Sturmey Archer are reconned to be more sturdy than many hubs as they are less complicated, try to pack less gears into the hub and the 2nd gear doesn't use dogs but just direct drives (so is stronger and more efficient in terms of energy transmission). Some really old SA 3 gears are still going, of course they just had human torque going through them.

 

[flat tire]

Letting off for shifts is lame.

 

[Little Voice]

Letting off for shifts is lame.

It is that vs potentially; chain-line issues, wearing through chains quickly, wearing through cassette sprockets quickly, and possibly derailing the chain often.

Its a choice, life is not perfect.

 

[Grantmac]

The big selling feature of that 5spd Shimano is the direct first gear. Provided you run it correctly that should take a lot of power with ease.

 

[qwerkus]

Not too sure what power, torque and gear range the SHIMANO STEPS E-BIKE Dedicated Mechanical Internal Geared Hub Disc Brake 5-speed can take.
Anyone found any more info on it please?

I've been trying to get data from shimano, but they are classic b2b-only-pain-in-the-ass-giant-corporation; you need to be registered as a manufacturer (not even a bike shop) to access the data...

 

[matmaxgeds]

The seem to be recommending a minimum gear ration of 1.27, see: https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-CASG002-01-ENG.pdf maybe if you compare that to their recommendation for other hubs it might give some hint as to how much stronger they feel it is e.g. for an Alfine 8 it suggests between 2 and 2.25: https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-SG0004-04-ENG.pdf but I don't know how much of this is because of the need to get a usable set of speeds out of them.....

 

[Little Voice]

Commuting on flat terrain mostly, on bad roads, but often against high winds.
Quick release is the skewer that goes through axle and allows wheels to be removed quick and easy, probably most common on road bikes.
Direct drive hub motors are not as easily removed because of the wires.
Dual drives are somewhere in between, i would say.
BBSHD is quite a though and versatile mid drive, it can take a lot of abuse without complaining.
The CYC seems even more so but it is too new so time will tell.

@andrebandre
I don't know if it varies depending upon the type of dropouts (horizontal or vertical), but do you know if something like a torque bar or similar is needed or recomended with the SA 3 speed Hub with 8-9 speed cassette please?
Thanks for sharing you knowledge

 

[amberwolf]

All IGHs require some form of torque transfer device from it's axle to the frame, exactly like a hubmotor, for the same reason.

Some use just a tabbed washer; some use a reaction bar that clamps to the frame, etc. All should come with the device that manufacturer designed it for, but you can always choose to make your own "better" one for your particular application.