bowlofsalad
100 kW
What is the down side to too much suspension?
Suspension
- Thread starter bowlofsalad
- Start date
Kingfish
100 MW
You can make suspension shocks quite firm, and mine can even be locked out. If there's not enough pressure then they become spongy or boaty - like a car with bad shocks - and create difficult handling conditions. I particularly dislike low pressure in the front shock which causes nose-diving when you hit the brakes. Too low pressure on the rear shock can lead to bottoming-out.bowlofsalad said:
Make sense?
~KF
bowlofsalad
100 kW
The only situation I can imagine by bottoming out is where one of the pedals hits the ground, which could be very bad. I can't really say I understand what boaty, spongy, or a car with bad shocks is or feels like. All I imagine in hitting a hard bump and the shocks allow the wheel to move rather than the bike, keeping even traction and a comfortable smooth ride. I might guess the boaty or spongy effect would likely relate to the quality or type of shocks/suspension.
bottoming out simply means the suspension has reached its maximum travel. So if you hit a bump that is greater than the suspension travel, you will get a sharp jolt thru the frame once that happens. The less travel vs size of bump, the worse this will be.
Chalo
100 TW
bowlofsalad said:
Just off the top of my head--
bob and squish when pedaling, wastes muscle power
excessive pitching and weight shift under acceleration or braking
too high ground clearance/top heavy when extended
easier to smash drivetrain parts when compressed
crowds out more important bike and e-bike components
weaker, more laterally and torsionally flexible frame
lots and lots of needless weight to drag around
incompatible with most bike luggage accommodations
Inability to lift wheels or hop on demand
radically increased cost, like 10X an equal quality rigid frame
many extra points of failure and maintenance
not suitable to a wide range of rider or cargo weights
sloppy handling in tight and slow conditions
makes you look like a total wanker
I'm sure y'all can come up with some others I've left out.
full-throttle
1 MW
:lol: Most of those ONLY aply to Chalo,
No one makes bike suspension for his weight
He has very limited experience and doesn't understand the basis of suspension setup
He rides too slow to benefit from suspension
Inability to lift the wheel off the ground?? :lol:
No one makes bike suspension for his weight
He has very limited experience and doesn't understand the basis of suspension setup
He rides too slow to benefit from suspension
Inability to lift the wheel off the ground?? :lol:
Ykick said:
A walmart bike with a spring out back is definitely better than nothing. Many times more comfortable than my more expensive Trek 4500 hardtail with a slightly above bottom grade RST front fork ( GILA model, i think ).
The big difference is that i can put a better rear shock on the walmart bike, but i can't put one on the expensive hardtail.
The genesis bike with a fox shock rides great.
full-throttle
1 MW
Nothing personal nep.neptronix said:
Tell him to play nice (or better still don't write about things he doesn't understand) and you will not see any more "attacks"
Ykick
1 GW
neptronix said:
Very true. Did so with a cheap "Jeep Cherokee" open FS triangle. Still, quite POJ compared to roller bearing Cannondale with Fox Float but a welcome improvement for the "bushed" pivot stuff.
Most of "it" boils down to formula of weight/speed/surface, IMO. Mild performance categories may be fine with non-sus platforms.
Chalo
100 TW
"Mild performance":
[youtube]B9ODgLx5caI[/youtube]
[youtube]BEWt8pzufN4[/youtube]
[youtube]VD4NHUtw1kk[/youtube]
[youtube]8wJjZ34ZQl0[/youtube]
[youtube]B9ODgLx5caI[/youtube]
[youtube]BEWt8pzufN4[/youtube]
[youtube]VD4NHUtw1kk[/youtube]
[youtube]8wJjZ34ZQl0[/youtube]
rp3
100 W
Nice vids Chalo. :wink: An F1 car could be driven as a rally car, but would you really want to? Would it be as good a s a dedicated rally car?
full-throttle
1 MW
Yes Chalo, mild performance indeed. You wrote it yourself. The BMX is alright, but the rest is pretty lame actually, the last one is 20years old. Not sure why you brought all those videos though, especially track racing. What does it have to do with ebikes??
Here is what those guys would be riding if they had suspension
[youtube]cns4lXV9odA[/youtube]
[youtube]b6keWj_iLeo[/youtube]
[youtube]LDHgUeDDAtc[/youtube]
[youtube]GO8Z8g8difg[/youtube]
Here is what those guys would be riding if they had suspension
[youtube]cns4lXV9odA[/youtube]
[youtube]b6keWj_iLeo[/youtube]
[youtube]LDHgUeDDAtc[/youtube]
[youtube]GO8Z8g8difg[/youtube]
dogman dan
1 PW
Chalo has some valid points there. Disagree if you want, in nice language. Some of his comments argue more against the quality for the price of FS, others pertain to personal riding style.
For me personally, crushed lumbar disks make even shoddy full suspension worth the trouble.
Re cheap wheels, somebody we know rode across a continent with no suspension, and broke a wheel. I don't know how good his first wheel was, but he did the second half of the ride on a wheel from a trash pile. What's the point? Scavenge an old enough wheel, it might actually be better than it looks. New stuff, well, we know you can pay a lot and still get crap spokes nowdays.
Which brings us to the wallmart bike. At the lowest end, they really do suck.
You know, pinched steel tube forks, and a rear shock hooked to the seat tube. 3000 miles at 30 mph on one of those myself. I bet Chalo never stood one for that long. I do mean standing it, because it did suck. But I immediately stopped breaking spokes, and my crushed disks stopped howling like a wolf. This bike shaped object was truly horrible, but it helped me ride the long distances by a lot.
Rider does matter.
No offense intended, but at 185 pounds, I was overloading that cheap bike built for kids weighing 110. Anybody heavier would very likely find in worse than no suspension. If the suspension is overloaded enough, spoke breakage on cheap wheels might not be any less. Without a doubt, the frame would be doing alarming things.
Set up matters hugely.
Again, at the very low end, set up what? the system is almost completely un tunable. So you are screwed, unless you happen to weigh 110 pounds. There will be preload adjustment on the rear, but nothing on the front shock. In the high to middle end, you get to set preload and rebound. This means you can really screw it up, or really improve it. But again, if you weigh more than average, the system may not tune for you as nice as it does for somebody that weighs 150 pounds. Set it up too cush, and you will bob up and down like a clown going nowhere. I like a pretty darn stiff setup on my commuter and cargo bike. Very little pedal bob when pedaling hard, but a big enough pothole will wake up several inches of travel rather than bend a rim. For both the wheels and my back, I don't need a silky ride, I just need the big one tamed some.
The type of suspension matters hugely.
In front shocks, you want to at least have adjustable preload, and ideally you get to adjust rebound too. No pogo sticks with zero damping allowed. The more you spend the nicer it gets. The cost of a marzocchi bomber is an ass reaming, but worth it for a single track trail bike. Not worth it for street though. Do get something tolerable though. My FS longtail has an entry level rockshocks on it. Just tunable for preload, but good enough for street.
In the rear suspension, the last thing you want for trail riding is a shock attached directly to the seatpost. You want something with the shock attached to a rocker, then to the frame. The classic is the four bar rocker link. You see this on some fairly cheap bikes like the genesis and the mongoose blackcomb, and on some good stuff like kona's. Four bar, or other kinds of rockers will definitely reduce unwanted pedal bob by a huge amount. Again, adjustability is crucial. If you don't have rebound and preload adjustment, and you have a primitive suspension, you will get unbearable pedal bob. But if you have a decent adjustable rear shock even crude suspension can be improved a lot with a good tune. But not if the bike is designed only for 110 pounds.
I'm no suspension tuning expert, but If you bunny hop the bike with your battery and other cargo loaded, you should see a level hop. If the front or the back dips more, keep trying. Get the preload right, then start tweaking the rebound. Again, I set both preload and rebound fairly stiff for street. I want it to ride almost like a no suspension bike right to the moment I turn onto that washboard dirt road, then shazam!!! A miracle happens.
Re the vids. Watch the Red bull competition from this year. This year I didn't spot one single hardtail left. A few years back you saw some, but guess what the winners rode? It's like the rally car analogy. I tore up the desert real good in a 66 bug I used to own. But would I rather be in Travis Pastrana's Subaru? Hell yeah. Sometimes "improvements" are entirely market driven, and the engineers are just putting bangles on it. Sometimes though, improvements are improvements. The first few years they cost a lot. A decade later, you may see the same improvement on a walbike.
Weight doesn't concern me, I just strapped 30 pounds of motor and battery to the bike. How to carry that battery can be a bitch though, especially with old Y frames like the blackcomb.
For me personally, crushed lumbar disks make even shoddy full suspension worth the trouble.
Re cheap wheels, somebody we know rode across a continent with no suspension, and broke a wheel. I don't know how good his first wheel was, but he did the second half of the ride on a wheel from a trash pile. What's the point? Scavenge an old enough wheel, it might actually be better than it looks. New stuff, well, we know you can pay a lot and still get crap spokes nowdays.
Which brings us to the wallmart bike. At the lowest end, they really do suck.
You know, pinched steel tube forks, and a rear shock hooked to the seat tube. 3000 miles at 30 mph on one of those myself. I bet Chalo never stood one for that long. I do mean standing it, because it did suck. But I immediately stopped breaking spokes, and my crushed disks stopped howling like a wolf. This bike shaped object was truly horrible, but it helped me ride the long distances by a lot.
Rider does matter.
No offense intended, but at 185 pounds, I was overloading that cheap bike built for kids weighing 110. Anybody heavier would very likely find in worse than no suspension. If the suspension is overloaded enough, spoke breakage on cheap wheels might not be any less. Without a doubt, the frame would be doing alarming things.
Set up matters hugely.
Again, at the very low end, set up what? the system is almost completely un tunable. So you are screwed, unless you happen to weigh 110 pounds. There will be preload adjustment on the rear, but nothing on the front shock. In the high to middle end, you get to set preload and rebound. This means you can really screw it up, or really improve it. But again, if you weigh more than average, the system may not tune for you as nice as it does for somebody that weighs 150 pounds. Set it up too cush, and you will bob up and down like a clown going nowhere. I like a pretty darn stiff setup on my commuter and cargo bike. Very little pedal bob when pedaling hard, but a big enough pothole will wake up several inches of travel rather than bend a rim. For both the wheels and my back, I don't need a silky ride, I just need the big one tamed some.
The type of suspension matters hugely.
In front shocks, you want to at least have adjustable preload, and ideally you get to adjust rebound too. No pogo sticks with zero damping allowed. The more you spend the nicer it gets. The cost of a marzocchi bomber is an ass reaming, but worth it for a single track trail bike. Not worth it for street though. Do get something tolerable though. My FS longtail has an entry level rockshocks on it. Just tunable for preload, but good enough for street.
In the rear suspension, the last thing you want for trail riding is a shock attached directly to the seatpost. You want something with the shock attached to a rocker, then to the frame. The classic is the four bar rocker link. You see this on some fairly cheap bikes like the genesis and the mongoose blackcomb, and on some good stuff like kona's. Four bar, or other kinds of rockers will definitely reduce unwanted pedal bob by a huge amount. Again, adjustability is crucial. If you don't have rebound and preload adjustment, and you have a primitive suspension, you will get unbearable pedal bob. But if you have a decent adjustable rear shock even crude suspension can be improved a lot with a good tune. But not if the bike is designed only for 110 pounds.
I'm no suspension tuning expert, but If you bunny hop the bike with your battery and other cargo loaded, you should see a level hop. If the front or the back dips more, keep trying. Get the preload right, then start tweaking the rebound. Again, I set both preload and rebound fairly stiff for street. I want it to ride almost like a no suspension bike right to the moment I turn onto that washboard dirt road, then shazam!!! A miracle happens.
Re the vids. Watch the Red bull competition from this year. This year I didn't spot one single hardtail left. A few years back you saw some, but guess what the winners rode? It's like the rally car analogy. I tore up the desert real good in a 66 bug I used to own. But would I rather be in Travis Pastrana's Subaru? Hell yeah. Sometimes "improvements" are entirely market driven, and the engineers are just putting bangles on it. Sometimes though, improvements are improvements. The first few years they cost a lot. A decade later, you may see the same improvement on a walbike.
Weight doesn't concern me, I just strapped 30 pounds of motor and battery to the bike. How to carry that battery can be a bitch though, especially with old Y frames like the blackcomb.
There is a reason that the mountain biking video chalo posted has the title of 'old school' 
No modern mountain rider would be interested in doing that again without suspension.
Ask an experienced downhiller if they are wistful for that good ol' feeling of being in a 7.5 richter scale earthquake as they ride along, they'll probably give you a priceless facial expression and ask what drug you're on.
For many of us here, our ebike is our commuting vehicle. Would you take the shocks and springs off your car just to get a vehicle that is lower maintenance, or more efficient? that'd be the stupidest thing ever, no? but an electric bike which is capable of doing 20-45mph is really just as absurd.
Why are about >95% of motorcycles and scooters built with suspension on both sides? Don't they know that maintenance could be easier, they could have less body flex, and better acceleration?
The lycra / roadie mentality doesn't apply here.
No modern mountain rider would be interested in doing that again without suspension.
Ask an experienced downhiller if they are wistful for that good ol' feeling of being in a 7.5 richter scale earthquake as they ride along, they'll probably give you a priceless facial expression and ask what drug you're on.
For many of us here, our ebike is our commuting vehicle. Would you take the shocks and springs off your car just to get a vehicle that is lower maintenance, or more efficient? that'd be the stupidest thing ever, no? but an electric bike which is capable of doing 20-45mph is really just as absurd.
Why are about >95% of motorcycles and scooters built with suspension on both sides? Don't they know that maintenance could be easier, they could have less body flex, and better acceleration?
The lycra / roadie mentality doesn't apply here.
Chalo
100 TW
rp3 said:
Nah. So we might as well use one of these for the workday commute:
http://www.f150forum.com/attachments/f2/33701d1298521495t-9-12-lift-kit-big_truck04f150.jpg
That's not a wanker, right? He's just reaping the benefits of decades of improvements to make his commute better.
Chalo
100 TW
full-throttle said:
Speed realized for limited power. The first guy covered 1000m in less than 1:03 from a stop with just legs. How fast would he have done it on a boinger bike? Let alone a bike with as much suspension as possible?
Bicycles illustrate "less is more". E-bikes, at their best, are motor vehicles that cleave to the same principle. Otherwise what you have is a feeble, creaky little motorcycle with no balls and the operating radius of a person on foot.
Yes, I understand that those videos depict the daily transportation rides of ESers who see suspension as an absolute requirement. Was that you in the first one?
We here are just a wee tad more likely to top out at a blazing 27mph as we bomb the local EXTREME bike path or INSANE neighborhood street to bring back a half gallon of milk. I question the wisdom of wasting money, vehicle weight, luggage space, maintenance, and the opportunity to have a much nicer bike, just so we can have suspension to do a non-suspension bike's job.
Chalo
100 TW
neptronix said:
Got one in front of me as I write this; I could rest my feet on it. It's one I made for my wife, though. The three e-bikes I built for myself have all been reverted to a de-electrified state. I still have all three bikes (one with a recently broken frame) and I still ride them all, just without the assist now. They were decent problem solvers in steep, rainy Seattle, but like all motorized things-- when they aren't working for you, they are working against you.
My wife's e-bike is good for about 24mph at 48V, with plenty of towing torque from my old front X5305. Steel ladies' MTB frame, front handlebar/basket unit, Hawker Odyssey SLAs slung as panniers from the sides of the rear rack. 26 x 2" tires, with no extraneous monkey motion, of course. 21 speeds with a 52/42/30t crank, so she can pedal along at cruise speed.
I have a Transmagnetics 800W project in the works, and a 25cc propane/NuVinci crank drive project. There's not a lot of pressure on me to finish those, though, with half a mile between home and work and less than five miles to just about anything I need or want.
Chalo
100 TW
neptronix said:
I get something of value in return for that weight.
When I bought my X5 years ago, there was no more efficient or more powerful hub motor available to me at any price. If I spent the same $600 today that I paid to Kenny way back when, I'd surely have something even better.
The Odyssey cells are heavy, but they were surplused from work so they cost me $0.00. If I had to pay market rate for them now, I'd get something else. It is nice to have the simplicity, reliability, and self-balancing of SLA batteries though.
Your battery weighs 3-5 times more than an equivalent watt hours worth of lithium.
That's a pretty gross benefit to pound ratio right there, compared to suspension.
What i get out of suspension is less pain, and less of a feeling that i'm riding during an earthquake as my bike goes over the cracked, potholed southwest pavement. kind of a bonus to me. Well worth the 3-5 pounds.
It is even a rough ride out if you drive an econobox car like i do.
That's a pretty gross benefit to pound ratio right there, compared to suspension.
What i get out of suspension is less pain, and less of a feeling that i'm riding during an earthquake as my bike goes over the cracked, potholed southwest pavement. kind of a bonus to me. Well worth the 3-5 pounds.
It is even a rough ride out if you drive an econobox car like i do.
Chalo
100 TW
neptronix said:
You can't stand up and "float" your econobox when you encounter rough ground. To read folks' thoughts about suspension here, you'd think they can't stand up on their bikes either. But they can; they just don't.
Sitting is more comfortable than standing. Shoot, i'd have to stand the entire time on my bike since the potholes, irregularities etc just keep coming for the multi dozen mile long rides i take. No need for a seat.
I think the jury is out on which is more comfortable though, when choosing whether to sit or stand. 99% of office workers, assembly line workers, bike commuters, motorcyclists, couch surfers, etc etc etc agree: sitting is best.
I think the jury is out on which is more comfortable though, when choosing whether to sit or stand. 99% of office workers, assembly line workers, bike commuters, motorcyclists, couch surfers, etc etc etc agree: sitting is best.
Chalo
100 TW
That line of thinking ends with a heart attack in a Buick.
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