The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiasts

[chvidgov.bc.ca]

I'd like to report success on updating my firmware to the latest .809 firmware.

It was rather a puzzle, as on Windows 7, 64bit machine...my device "FX230X Basic UART" device was non functional, but visible in my list of devices, so I had to guess as to where to download a possible driver for the Virtual Com Port driver (VCP), by googling FX203X", downloading the driver, and installing it, using the device tab for installation, by pointing it at the unzipped driver in my download folder.

It was here... http://www.ftdichip.com/Drivers/VCP.htm

After that the virtual Com Port in the Device manager wasn't functional, until I played with it a bit, and it detected the new driver and set a virtual com port to Com3.. Which then showed up in the firmware updater dropdown...

And then the flasher worked fine.

I'm not sure what percent of the beta testers will have a functional device driver which will just work without a similar puzzle.

New firmware is working, and Satiator is ready to charge, and preserved my profiles.

I haven't had a chance to use it on a longer trip yet, as I'm off to Lasqueti/Texada Island on the weekend and kayak preps take some time. And its hard for me to accept that I can "pound the hell of out it" - it seems too precious for that.
But I have been using it a lot on my bench.

 

[bspalteh]

I had similar problems in Windows 7, work computer with access restrictions. I got boost rights which is normally all that is needed for any software installs, but maybe drivers need a higher access right. Driver did not install automaticaly, downloaded it, tried to install it manuall but it would not let me. The strange thing is that I am pretty sure I installed the CA V3 driver updates with this same computer and don't remember any problems at all. Hmm..will have to try to find a computer that is not locked down or wait for the Mac version.

 

[tomjasz]

I have the following batteries, and would like to be able to set charge levels, 50% and 90%. Neither source has a solution and each minimilaze the importance. However I get the idea that better battery management means longer life. I believe both BMS limit the charge to 3A.

Will the Cycle Satiator be my solution?


EM3ev 3.8Ah Samsung NMC INR18650-29E 10S 5P, 29E cells, 36V, 13.8Ah
Lectric 11Ah Panasonic NMC NCR18650PF 10S 5P, ??? cells, 36V 14.5Ah

Regardless, this is impressive work!


Tom

 

[cal3thousand]

I have the following batteries, and would like to be able to set charge levels, 50% and 90%. Neither source has a solution and each minimilaze the importance. However I get the idea that better battery management means longer life. I believe both BMS limit the charge to 3A.

Will the Cycle Satiator be my solution?


EM3ev 3.8Ah Samsung NMC INR18650-29E 10S 5P, 29E cells, 36V, 13.8Ah
Lectric 11Ah Panasonic NMC NCR18650PF 10S 5P, ??? cells, 36V 14.5Ah

Regardless, this is impressive work!


Tom

Yes! This is exactly what the Satiator does. I have at least 5 profiles just for 1 battery based on where I am and when I anticipate needing the juice. Overnight, less than an Amp charged to 85% and topped up with another profile if necessary. If I just got to work and anticipate needing the bike for lunch, a 5A charge to full does well. etc.

 

[mrbill]

How accurately calibrated is the Satiator, and can this be adjusted?

I ask because I notice that the final charge voltage reads about 0.15v higher on my calibrated DVM at the battery than it reads on the Satiator's internal display. And, as best I can tell the current is also running a tad higher than shown on the Satiator display.

E.g. I set up a profile to charge my batteries to 3.8v/cell for storage. Since I'm using 7s batteries, this is 26.6 volts. When the Satiator says charge is complete at 26.6 volts, the voltage measured at the battery terminal is 26.75 volts.

It's not a big deal at storage voltage but could affect cycle life of the cells if I were intending to charge to 4.2v/cell (29.4 volts) and instead was getting 4.22v/cell (29.55 volts) on a regular basis.

 

[Warren]

Bill,

What folks at GrinTech told me.

"The satiator is actually showing output watts into the battery not the watts out of the device, which is a bit higher because of the resistance and losses inside the charger cable itself. So if it says 54.0V on the satiator screen, that is the voltage at the battery pack, but the voltage out of the satiator may be more like 54.8V to account for the IR drop over the line"

Warren

 

[mrbill]

What folks at GrinTech told me.

"The satiator is actually showing output watts into the battery not the watts out of the device, which is a bit higher because of the resistance and losses inside the charger cable itself. So if it says 54.0V on the satiator screen, that is the voltage at the battery pack, but the voltage out of the satiator may be more like 54.8V to account for the IR drop over the line"

Hi Warren:

But, I'm reading the voltage at the battery pack as higher than that shown on the Satiator screen. That suggests one of the following: that the Satiator is overcompensating for the voltage drop in its cable, the output voltage of the Satiator is miscalibrated too high, or my DVM is miscalibrated.

I know that my DVM agrees exactly with the voltages given on the Cellog display, which is known to be well-calibrated from the factory, and I also know that when charging to a programmed 4.2v/cell with the Satiator, the battery BMS cuts off voltage to all cells early, before the Satiator current tails off to less than 1A. These both suggest that the Satiator is aiming for a higher final voltage at the battery than its program commanded.

 

[Warren]

Bill,

Yes. Just quoting what they said. My DVM, and my CA both show slightly higher voltage than the Satiator display.

 

[justin_le]

How accurately calibrated is the Satiator, and can this be adjusted?
E.g. I set up a profile to charge my batteries to 3.8v/cell for storage. Since I'm using 7s batteries, this is 26.6 volts. When the Satiator says charge is complete at 26.6 volts, the voltage measured at the battery terminal is 26.75 volts.

Hi Bill, the devices are initially calibrated at 60V with a 0.1% voltage reference, but the bitwise resolution of the output is really just to 0.1V, so it would be normal and expected that you could have up to a 0.1V difference between what the satiator shows and what a multimeter shows.

Do you have a pack that is more like 50V? If the calibration is off, then it should be that at 50V you see 50.2V on the satiator when you have 50.0V on the multimeter. However, if they are still within 0.1V of each other then the actual calibration term is correct, but there is a slight offset that might need to be accounted for.

In the current firmware you can't adjust the calibration from the satiator itself. We haven't decided yet if we'll allow for tweaking of the calibration via pushing buttons on the device itself, or only from a software suite. Unlike with the CA, there are a lot of potentially bad consequences and ramifications if someone changes their calibration values.

 

[mrbill]

How accurately calibrated is the Satiator, and can this be adjusted?
E.g. I set up a profile to charge my batteries to 3.8v/cell for storage. Since I'm using 7s batteries, this is 26.6 volts. When the Satiator says charge is complete at 26.6 volts, the voltage measured at the battery terminal is 26.75 volts.

Hi Bill, the devices are initially calibrated at 60V with a 0.1% voltage reference, but the bitwise resolution of the output is really just to 0.1V, so it would be normal and expected that you could have up to a 0.1V difference between what the satiator shows and what a multimeter shows.

Do you have a pack that is more like 50V? If the calibration is off, then it should be that at 50V you see 50.2V on the satiator when you have 50.0V on the multimeter. However, if they are still within 0.1V of each other then the actual calibration term is correct, but there is a slight offset that might need to be accounted for.

In the current firmware you can't adjust the calibration from the satiator itself. We haven't decided yet if we'll allow for tweaking of the calibration via pushing buttons on the device itself, or only from a software suite. Unlike with the CA, there are a lot of potentially bad consequences and ramifications if someone changes their calibration values.

Hi Justin:

I hooked up two of my idle 7s batteries in series that gave 53.3v. Then I programmed a new Lithium profile for 53.4v at 4.0A and compared the Satiator display with my multimeter as close to the battery as I could get. For all practical purposes the readings were the same, moving quickly from 53.3v to 53.4v almost but not quite in lock-step. If anything the multimeter was reading a tad lower, based on when each display flipped from 53.3 to 53.4.

Does the calibration drift with voltage? If the error can be characterized, perhaps compensation could be applied in firmware.

 

[Marc S.]

My Satiator arrived yesterday. (FW 0.808)

Looks great, works great!

Since its so quiet it might be a nice idea to include some audible 'end of charge' signal in the next generation of Satiators...
Something like a microwave oven 'ping!' maybe?

 

[justin_le]

I hooked up two of my idle 7s batteries in series that gave 53.3v. Then I programmed a new Lithium profile for 53.4v at 4.0A and compared the Satiator display with my multimeter as close to the battery as I could get. For all practical purposes the readings were the same, moving quickly from 53.3v to 53.4v almost but not quite in lock-step. If anything the multimeter was reading a tad lower, based on when each display flipped from 53.3 to 53.4.

OK, that's good to hear, and thanks for checking.

Does the calibration drift with voltage? If the error can be characterized, perhaps compensation could be applied in firmware.

We haven't seen anything to suggest other than pretty nearly perfect linearity on the ADC's so far. In later hardware revisions we'll be doing a 2 point calibration on voltage for both a slope and offset since we'll be introducing a bias in the voltage sense input so that we can differentiate between a reverse polarity on the output and a short. But I don't think any kind of characterization curve would be needed or helpful given that +- 0.1V is the expected error over the range, which for the target 36-48V batteries is about +- 0.2% accuracy.

 

[justin_le]

My Satiator arrived yesterday. (FW 0.808)
Looks great, works great!

Hey nice to hear. First thing to do next would be updating the firmare! I've just posted a link to the 0.814 firmware build here. Most of the appearance of glitchy behavior when a battery was disconnected mid-charge has been resolved it now pretty quickly goes to say "connect battery" once you unplug a pack that has been charging. You can double button press to abort a charge and return to the profile menu, and the charge status display is more informative with NiMH/NiCad packs.

For those wondering, while the Beta units were all shipped out some time ago, we have more recently had about 100 pieces from the first production run air shipped to us which are gradually being made available. The initial plan was to hold them until the firmware/software quite was a bit further along but if people are happy with jumping in at the current state that is fine too, just send an email.

Since its so quiet it might be a nice idea to include some audible 'end of charge' signal in the next generation of Satiators...
Something like a microwave oven 'ping!' maybe?

That's come up but for some reason I'm always tempted to smash to bits electronic devices that beep and ding at me, phone and microwave oven included . So it'd take a lot of really hard convincing to get any kind of beeping piezo speaker on the satiator's BOM list for fear I might smash it too.

It is true that I used to use the fan noise of the high-power brand chargers a cue of sorts for when it was charging or if charge had been completed. The hope was that the large display screen could convey this just as well, but perhaps it's not quite contrasting enough between charging and charge complete.

 

[Marc S.]

My Satiator arrived yesterday. (FW 0.808)
Looks great, works great!

Hey nice to hear. First thing to do next would be updating the firmare! I've just posted a link to the 0.814 firmware build here. Most of the appearance of glitchy behavior when a battery was disconnected mid-charge has been resolved it now pretty quickly goes to say "connect battery" once you unplug a pack that has been charging. You can double button press to abort a charge and return to the profile menu, and the charge status display is more informative with NiMH/NiCad packs.

I have to start my PC again?
Updated yesterday to FW 0.809...

Since its so quiet it might be a nice idea to include some audible 'end of charge' signal in the next generation of Satiators...
Something like a microwave oven 'ping!' maybe?

That's come up but for some reason I'm always tempted to smash to bits electronic devices that beep and ding at me, phone and microwave oven included . So it'd take a lot of really hard convincing to get any kind of beeping piezo speaker on the satiator's BOM list for fear I might smash it too.

It is true that I used to use the fan noise of the high-power brand chargers a cue of sorts for when it was charging or if charge had been completed. The hope was that the large display screen could convey this just as well, but perhaps it's not quite contrasting enough between charging and charge complete.

:lol: I know the feeling.

One ping.
Just one little subtile ping! (submarine ecolot 'ping' for enhanced coolness factor, maybe?)

The display is not really useful telling you the charge has completed if you and the satiator don't share the same room... I only would need a 'ping' to know I can charge the second battery. I charge in the kitchen but most of the time I'm in the living room.

I found often the next available wall plug in a hotel room is in the bathroom. The plug at the desk often is already occupied by the phone charger, camera battery charger, any other gizmo charger or the notebook.

------
OK, fired up the PC and update to FW 0.814 went as painless as yesterday.
Stopping the charge with double button press is a nice feature!

 

[amberwolf]

. The hope was that the large display screen could convey this just as well, but perhaps it's not quite contrasting enough between charging and charge complete.

Does it have a backlight? If so, and the MCU has control over it, you could have it flash the backlight on and off, and at the same time black or blank the whole LCD itself, for the highest contrast between on and off.

 

[Ypedal]

Personally , i like it the way it is ( no sound ) .. unlike some of my RC chargers that beep until you stop them and drive my dog berserk..

edit : at least, if you ever did implement it, have it as an option in setup ON/OFF defaults.

 

[Marc S.]

Personally , i like it the way it is ( no sound ) .. unlike some of my RC chargers that beep until you stop them and drive my dog berserk..

edit : at least, if you ever did implement it, have it as an option in setup ON/OFF defaults.

Ja, my RC charger is particulary annoying...

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̶a̶̶n̶̶d̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶i̶̶n̶̶c̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶m̶̶y̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶a̶̶t̶̶i̶̶a̶̶t̶̶o̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶h̶̶i̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶7̶̶0̶°̶c̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶w̶̶i̶̶c̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶o̶̶d̶̶a̶̶y̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶e̶̶r̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶r̶̶i̶̶n̶̶k̶̶l̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶p̶̶l̶̶a̶̶s̶̶t̶̶i̶̶c̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶c̶̶r̶̶o̶̶s̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶o̶̶t̶̶h̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶u̶̶t̶̶t̶̶o̶̶n̶̶s̶̶ ̶(̶a̶̶b̶̶o̶̶u̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶r̶̶e̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶u̶̶t̶̶t̶̶o̶̶n̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶l̶̶o̶̶n̶̶g̶)̶.̶̶ ̶̶:̶(

Solved, I didn't peel the protective plastic off.

̶a̶̶h̶̶,̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶m̶̶e̶̶t̶̶h̶̶i̶̶n̶̶g̶̶ ̶̶e̶̶l̶̶s̶̶e̶̶:̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶i̶̶t̶̶h̶̶ ̶̶f̶̶w̶̶ ̶̶0̶̶.̶̶8̶̶1̶̶4̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶h̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶n̶̶d̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶h̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶n̶̶ ̶'̶l̶̶i̶̶f̶̶e̶̶t̶̶i̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶o̶̶t̶̶a̶̶l̶̶s̶'̶ ̶̶s̶̶t̶̶a̶̶y̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶0̶̶.̶
Thats already listed in known bugs.

 

[cal3thousand]

Personally , i like it the way it is ( no sound ) .. unlike some of my RC chargers that beep until you stop them and drive my dog berserk..

edit : at least, if you ever did implement it, have it as an option in setup ON/OFF defaults.

Ja, my RC charger is particulary annoying...

Anyway, what I found out 'on the road' today while topping up my battery is, the plastic over the display has already a lot of fine scratches that make it much more difficuld to read the display in direct sunlight. I kept the Satiator in a well padded Lowepro lens pouch when riding.
And since my Satiator hit 70°C twice today there is a wrinkle in the plastic across both buttons (about three buttons long).

Ah, something else: with FW 0.814 the Ah and Wh in 'lifetime totals' stay at 0.

I have a fix for issues like that, but not sure how it will pan out with the Satiator screen. It will definitely work with CAs. I haven't done it on a CA, but I'm confident the method will work.

My multimeter's plastic face was VERY scratched (some were quite deep) to the point that reading numbers was getting difficult and quite annoying. While working on a project to clear epoxy coat some things, I ended up with some extra. I took a small amount and dripped it on the face until I had a nice even cover. Then I let it cure.

Now, the screen is absolutely pristine. I still abuse it the same as before, throwing it in my tool bag and basically not caring much for it. And the screen is still like the day I fixed it. One thing I don't do is expose it to direct sunlight very often as that might effect the epoxy. If doing this on a Satiator or CA, I would spray it afterwards with some UV resistant topcoat.

 

[Marc S.]

I have a fix for issues like that, but not sure how it will pan out with the Satiator screen. It will definitely work with CAs. I haven't done it on a CA, but I'm confident the method will work.

I think the clear plastic over display and buttons is too soft for covering it with epoxy.

 

[bspalteh]

Did you remove the protective plastic sheet over the display before using it, maybe that is what is scratched and bubbled, not the actual display? I haven't had any problems with scratches.

 

[tln]

Question to the testers and Justin...
Would this be a suitable solution to create a couple "universal charge stations" at work, where anyone could plug-in and choose their configuration to charge?

Yes, for sure, but they would need to be mindful to pick the correct profile for their bike.

Random thought: maybe the pack/charge cable could help determine the correct profile? I'm imagining DIP switches on a tiny board that identify a profile and use the LIN bus connector thingy.

 

[Ypedal]

RFID charge port anyone ?

 

[liveforphysics]

RFID charge port anyone ?

That would be such a cool protocol for something like public ebike charge stations. A near-field RFID tag at the charge-plug could store the needed data for the charger. You just get the plug near the charge socket and it configures the charger.

 

[bspalteh]

Why so complex, supply public plugins and people should bring the charger for their bike if they want to charge. Nobody supplies public power supplies for laptops at coffee shops, people simply bring their charger.

 

[liveforphysics]

Why so complex, supply public plugins and people should bring the charger for their bike if they want to charge. Nobody supplies public power supplies for laptops at coffee shops, people simply bring their charger.

Perhaps you are not aware, but public ebike chargers is not merely a concept, it's very much current practice. I've personally seen them in the Netherlands and Japan. Cafe's were a common place to see them. They typically have 3-5 charger on a post with cords hanging down, and each one has a switch for 24v or 36v.

If the charge stations instead had Satiator's setup to receive the NFC tag, it could prevent the failure mode of not manually setting the charger correctly, as well as open the door for a wide variety of battery typologies rather than only 12s or 18s SLA.

To answer your question of why not just bring your own? If it's fixed to a post, it's not burdening anyone riding around with it, no matter how big of power output it may be capable of delivering. I'm picturing 12 of the cycle Satiator's ganged up 6p2s, and setup with NFC tag programming capability and linked control. That would completely charge virtually anyone's bike from hotrod to mild commuter safely and faster than your cells could even handle for most builds <10-20min charge to 80%? The Tesla-supercharger setup is a real working system that makes roadtrips by EV an effortless experience, we could create the ebike version of it. Imagine what long-distance ebiking would be like if every city had >4kW universal ebike charging station available.