The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiasts

[zener]

They typically have 3-5 charger on a post with cords hanging down, and each one has a switch for 24v or 36v.

What for Plugs are they compatible with?
Have all ebike manufacturers a standardised charge plug?

 

[liveforphysics]

They typically have 3-5 charger on a post with cords hanging down, and each one has a switch for 24v or 36v.

What for Plugs are they compatible with?
Have all ebike manufacturers a standardised charge plug?

Most often XLR plugs.

My preference would be something tiny, lightweight, non-latching, high current, and weather-resistant. There are some amazing and economical connectors used on OEM vehicles, now more than ever since widespread development of mass production hybrid vehicles.

Amp makes a nice 60A weatherproof connector for up to 600vdc, its compact and ~$10/pair. Is there nothing weatherproof in all of the RC connector options? If so, we should leverage our 3D printing and CAD skills on this forum and have a tiny o-ring sealed high-current connector tooled up specifically for Ebike use and an open design. I have the connections to get the message to HobbyKing that they should make this connector so the RC and LEV world have something weatherproof, as well as high current and tiny.

 

[zener]

Thats a good idea.

We should start something like a "E-S 100A Waterproof opensource Charger plug Design contest"
Winner gets a Satiator for free ? (maybe) :wink:

 

[r3volved]

Why so complex, supply public plugins and people should bring the charger for their bike if they want to charge. Nobody supplies public power supplies for laptops at coffee shops, people simply bring their charger.

Like most people, for the sake of my personal charger's longevity, I would like to avoid carrying around at all costs. Even as the satiator is rated to be driven around, I'd rather not have the extra weight if at all possible.

My initial thought was to make an appropriate adapter harness for whoever wanted to use the 'workplace charge station' as users would be registered and it would be easily maintained but that wouldn't work as easily with a public station.

RFID sounds like a slick way to carry around a 'profile' as oppose to a charger and an ES open source solution would be phenomenal. There would still be a market for adapter harnesses for current and older production bikes and batteries.

Not just bikes either...I could see stations set up at air fields, race tracks, campgrounds, trailer parks, golf courses, beach-side...anywhere you'd see a golf cart/scooter/bike/RC - eventually auto

I hate cluster-frocks and am a huge proponent of standardization (and open source for that matter - money is the bane of my existence)

 

[bspalteh]

I agree it would be nice to have compatible chargers everywhere and not have to carry one, but I just don't see it as a feasible reality anytime in the next ten years. Also, I would not want to rely on those chargers, connectors, etc all working when I get there, and would rather know I have a good quality charger with me that I can use at any regular 110V plugin, which is an infrastructure has been added to and built for the past 100 years to get to where we are now (plug at every corner).

 

[liveforphysics]

I agree it would be nice to have compatible chargers everywhere and not have to carry one, but I just don't see it as a feasible reality anytime in the next ten years. Also, I would not want to rely on those chargers, connectors, etc all working when I get there, and would rather know I have a good quality charger with me that I can use at any regular 110V plugin, which is an infrastructure has been added to and built for the past 100 years to get to where we are now (plug at every corner).

No infrastructure starts out existing while still in the idea/concept stage. If people followed that line of thinking, new infrastructure could never mature or develop.

 

[Marc S.]

Did you remove the protective plastic sheet over the display before using it, maybe that is what is scratched and bubbled, not the actual display? I haven't had any problems with scratches.

Ahem...what can I say...smarter guys have roamed the earth?
Sure I didn't. Thanks for stating the obvious (obvious for others at least)!

Hey, my Satiator looks pristine again!

 

[bspalteh]

No worries, The only reason I know about that mistake because I made it myself, was wondering why the display was already bubbling up for a few days before I found the plastic protective cover, haha.

 

[mrbill]

I hooked up two of my idle 7s batteries in series that gave 53.3v. Then I programmed a new Lithium profile for 53.4v at 4.0A and compared the Satiator display with my multimeter as close to the battery as I could get. For all practical purposes the readings were the same, moving quickly from 53.3v to 53.4v almost but not quite in lock-step. If anything the multimeter was reading a tad lower, based on when each display flipped from 53.3 to 53.4.

OK, that's good to hear, and thanks for checking.

Does the calibration drift with voltage? If the error can be characterized, perhaps compensation could be applied in firmware.

We haven't seen anything to suggest other than pretty nearly perfect linearity on the ADC's so far. In later hardware revisions we'll be doing a 2 point calibration on voltage for both a slope and offset since we'll be introducing a bias in the voltage sense input so that we can differentiate between a reverse polarity on the output and a short. But I don't think any kind of characterization curve would be needed or helpful given that +- 0.1V is the expected error over the range, which for the target 36-48V batteries is about +- 0.2% accuracy.

Hi Justin:

To help give a more complete picture I went back to my workbench and observed the differences between voltages measured at the battery and the Satiator display over the range of supported voltages.

In earlier tests I found that the display showed the same voltage measured at the battery when output voltage was 53.3 volts. And, at 26.6 volts on the Satiator display I was seeing 26.75 volts at the battery, an increase of 0.15v.

I did another two tests. At 42.0 volts I was seeing about 42.08 volts at the battery. At 14.4 volts I was seeing about 14.58 volts at the battery.

So, I think it's safe to conclude that the Satiator voltage calibration is accurate for charging 36-48 volt nominal batteries, but drifts a bit high when charging batteries at lower voltages, although the error isn't quite linear with voltage as the output voltage went from 0.15v high at 26.6v to 0.18v high at 14.4v.

Perhaps an initial calibration near the mid-point of the supported range (e.g. 30 volts or 36 volts) would minimize the maximum error. A user option to fine-tune the calibration over a narrow range of two to three-hundred millivolt, for example, would be nice.

Having full charge voltage a little high is not a concern for me at this time as all of my batteries include a BMS that regulates maximum charge voltage to 4.18-4.2v/cell. But, users who do not use a BMS with a sensitive chemistry such as HobbyKing LiPo bricks might run into cycle life issues if the Satiator regularly overcharges their batteries by a small amount (4.23v/cell instead of 4.2v/cell).

 

[Marc S.]

No worries, The only reason I know about that mistake because I made it myself, was wondering why the display was already bubbling up for a few days before I found the plastic protective cover, haha.

Thanks! I feel a bit less stupid now.

You've got a nice Aurora in your profile pic btw!

 

[mrbill]

I realize this is a bit nit-picky, but I notice that while I'm charging and the Satiator temperature is high, my display shows some visible fingerprints. (See photo.) The problem is purely cosmetic, and they only appear when the unit is hot, but I thought I'd mention it just the same. Perhaps a bit better attention to QC during assembly would prevent the problem.

I thought to pop the case and clean the inner display surface, but although it appears the base plate might separate from the shell, I could find no screws (unless they're hidden beneath the rubber feet), and I didn't want to force anything or risk breaking any watertight seals. Is there a way for the user to get inside the Satiator, or should I learn to live with this minor flaw?

 

[Ypedal]

sort of gives it a Cosmic look

 

[justin_le]

I realize this is a bit nit-picky, but I notice that while I'm charging and the Satiator temperature is high, my display shows some visible fingerprints. (See photo.) The problem is purely cosmetic, and they only appear when the unit is hot, but I thought I'd mention it just the same. Perhaps a bit better attention to QC during assembly would prevent the problem.

Thanks Bill, that is really interesting and thanks for the notice. I wonder if the reason it only shows up when it is hot is that you are then getting a minute amount of condensation on the prints from the temperature differential between the core of the charger and the display window?

I thought to pop the case and clean the inner display surface, but although it appears the base plate might separate from the shell, I could find no screws (unless they're hidden beneath the rubber feet), and I didn't want to force anything or risk breaking any watertight seals. Is there a way for the user to get inside the Satiator, or should I learn to live with this minor flaw?

You can definitely pop it open, and indeed the beta units were all opened up at our end for some small PCB rework. The 4 screws are located under the rubber feet, and there is a thin rubber gasket between the lid and the enclosure meaning it can be opened up and closed at least a couple times and remain water tight. Just be careful when reclosing it that the gasket is seated in the trough and hasn't popped out. However, in order to access the polycarbonate display window for cleaning you would need to peel the front enclosure label, I don't think you'll be able to access it from the inside since the OLED display itself wold be in the way. We don't have a supply handy of spare front overlay labels, but that is something we'll get with our next batch so in principle this will be replaceable.

Has anyone else observed visible prints coming from inside the display window or is Bill's case here unique?

 

[underdog]

Hello.

I just recieved the beta-product. It has been tested and found working beautifully on some custom packs we had laying around in the shop. We want to mount it to our service-bike that we use to get around to our customers when service-calls is needed. If I have understood the information in this thread right, it will run without modification from a 74 Volt Lithium pack, for charging other bikes? I where thinking of taking power from the service-bike-pack before the CA3-shunt, feeding it threw a watt-meter-logger, and in to the Satiator AC-in. Am I correct doing it this way regards to the Satiator-input?

edit: I am sorry, I just now saw that it will need 120+ volts to initiate charge. Disregard my stupidity please

 

[amberwolf]

Well, if your 74-volt pack can be "split" into two halves, for it's parallel cells, you could then series those two halves to get the voltage you need.

Alternately if you have any other packs laying around that add up with the main pack to the right voltage, you could series those just for the CS's input.

 

[JoyRiddin]

Report update.
1. I have transported the satiator in my paniers constantly since purchased. There is no noticeable affect on charging. No exposure to water though as I am a fair weather rider, (no rain or snow and temps above 25 F).
2. I have not noticed any fingerprints on my display while the unit is hot or cool.

Rich

 

[justin_le]

Random thought: maybe the pack/charge cable could help determine the correct profile? I'm imagining DIP switches on a tiny board that identify a profile and use the LIN bus connector thingy.

It's not a bad random thought. We've deliberately left automatic profile selection process uncommitted at this stage. One of the easiest ones to implement would just be a fixed resistance between the signal pin and ground. Currently, the signal pin can do digital communication via LIN or it can measure the thermistor resistance between the Pin and Gnd for temperature sensing in NiMH/NiCad modes. But in lithium and lead modes and -dV Nickel modes it isn't used, so we have an option where the profiles are chosen automatically based on the resistance, so you could have it like

0.8-1.5 kOhm = Profile 1
1.5 - 3K = Profile 2
3K - 5K = Profile 3
...
...
>20K = user select

This would mean you'd just need to put a resistor on the XLR charge port of any battery pack you have and map it to the correct profile on the satiator, without any additional smart logic or communication, and have all your batteries load their profile automatically. It'd work fine for individual or private fleet applications, but not really a widerspread universal solution. For that I think we're going to wait and see what happens with the energybus standard and most likely adopt that route, with a charge calbe that has a LIN->CAN converter built in.
http://www.energybus.org/

On a different note, the 0.815 firmware available for download, just small internal tweaks over the 0.814
http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/cycle-satiator.html

And, we're also getting very close to having the computer software for setting up and custom naming and ordering your profile list.


Our target is to have this ready for beta users in time for demonstrating at Interbike, so give it a week or so.

 

[crezzy2k1]

Received my Satiator last week and have been using extensively with a couple of my packs. First thoughts are well built rugged device, Interface is very easy to use.
It did seem to get a little hot charging 6s5p LIPO (72c), but charging the same pack in a 15s2p configuration its much cooler (45c) i'm no battery expert so i can't explain that...

Today was the first day it traveled with me to work and it sits behind me charging as i type this. So far no issues.

The only thing i wish it would do is make a noise once charging is complete, but i can live without that.

 

[zlagger]

Been using the Satiator for a couple of weeks now. Had my first glitch.

Had a pretty dead 12s Lipo pack I was charging to 48v at 8A. Charger was placed in a cool well ventilated area.

Charging was working great so I went to work on a project. When I came back 20min later things looked good. Checked again later and display showed 3.3ah put in and still running at 7.6 amps. Continued the project and came back to check charge and WTF happened to the screen? It's blank! Clicked the up button and the OLED came on in a garbled mess, static, and flashing. So I unplugged it... It was very warm.

So I'm thinking the screen was glitching cuz it seemed to be charging fine. Heat maybe.

So I plugged it back in after cooling and all is well.

Firmware 0.814

 

[mrbill]

On a different note, the 0.815 firmware available for download, just small internal tweaks over the 0.814
http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/cycle-satiator.html

I get the "Whoops, our bad..." page (404 - Not Found) when I click on the link for V0.815 update.
http://www.ebikes.ca/downloads/Satiator_V0.815.hex

 

[johnrobholmes]

Put about 30 cycles on mine so far on the regular 36v lipo setting. Love it! As a regular joe user its all it ever needs to be, what an excellent product I have. I bumbled around the menu easily enough to set it as needed, and it automatically starts charging when the battery is connected. Although I'm a technically inclined person, I enjoy products that are easy to use that I don't have to fuddle or program or hack to get it right. It gives me more time to do other things in life.



Home run here fellas! I hope it is a hit at Interbike this weekend! I'm very glad that I purchased one, it is in my backpack everywhere I go.

 

[peters]

Justin,
in the brochure on page 3 there is a chart about cycle life increase by decreased charge voltage.
I would like to know more about this (3x improvement is surprising for me), is there an analysis or study somewhere on the web describing it?
Is this characteristic similar for LiFePO4? Is it also true for discharge rate, i.e. 80% discharge significantly increases cycle life?

 

[Miles]

Great addition to the Grin range. I'm sure there'll be a lot of interest in it at Interbike.

Just starting to play with mine (thanks again Justin!).

One thing that occurred to me.... Is there any way to implement the option to invert the display readout? For cases where there's a need to mount the unit on the bike from below.

 

[liveforphysics]

Justin,
in the brochure on page 3 there is a chart about cycle life increase by decreased charge voltage.
I would like to know more about this (3x improvement is surprising for me), is there an analysis or study somewhere on the web describing it?
Is this characteristic similar for LiFePO4? Is it also true for discharge rate, i.e. 80% discharge significantly increases cycle life?

Not typically true for LiFePO4, as it already has minimal voltage stresses to decompose it's electrolyte even while charged to 100%. (~3.6v)

True of most all the type that can be charged to ~4.2v.

 

[johnrobholmes]

Amp makes a nice 60A weatherproof connector for up to 600vdc, its compact and ~$10/pair.

Have a part number? I have a local rep that is really knowledgeable about their catalog and we couldn't find anything to those specs.