The psychology of why cyclists enrage car drivers

[HAROX]

Typical manipulation of the facts to support your invalid arguments. Elvis, other than the limited roadways actually built primarily for bicycles upon which the "bullies" are prohibited, please name even a handful of roads in your area that were built for bicycles. No, something that was a bike path back in the late 1800's and later got widened and paved to accommodate cars doesn't count, because that would be a road "built for cars".

John
just another motor tater

John please clarify, like this:

Manipulation of facts to support arguments... Elvis, other than roadways built for bicycles , please name roads built for bicycles. A bike path, widened and paved to accommodate cars would be a road "built for cars"...

and then see if it really makes sense (in the long tube of the waves at Waimea). Because what you got here is just a big wipeout. edit: a little wipeout. run the tube again. you'll get it :lol:

 

[John in CR]

Yes professor. Now please take Chalo to the woodshed.

 

[John in CR]

There are different laws for truck drivers, do you guys know that? They can't turn right on red, and often have lower speed limits. Does that make sense?.

Why then, can't a bicycle have slightly different laws? Reasonable ones, like passing stopped traffic, yielding when making a right turn at a stop sign.

It's a fact that a cyclist has better visibility, hearing and maneuvering, as well as a much smaller footprint than a car.

So the fact is, a car is not equal to a bike. Forcing the same exact laws on both is unfair.

I don't advocate reckless biking, or blowing red lights in front of traffic, but there are a handful of times when a slightly different law would really help a cyclist.

There's nothing at all wrong with changing laws to make better sense. Get everyone some benefit while you're at it, such as changing most stop signs to yield signs for all. ie Work in at least one beneficial rule change for the motorists, so they don't harbor jealously over being left out. Also be sure to make plenty of public announcements about the rule change including specifics about how yield signs work. While you're at it include some guidelines about cyclists rights and the dangers cars pose to them. I think it would go a long way toward improving attitudes, especially if the cops crack down on brazen offenders in both groups.

It won't stop Chalo from trying to stir up friction though. Look at how he tries to drive a wedge between pedalists and ebikers, and we're on the same side.

 

[HAROX]

Hey John truce if neccessary. I've got your interest in mind. If you never wanted to speak to me again, t'would make no diff, because you already do speak to me, whether I speak back or not. I've got no greater answer for you.

I'm a monkee. I'm a King. I'm a Turd. I'm a professor with a disclaimer. You need to catch what you are feeling about the rage issue and memorialize it. If it speaks to the mass here, all 15,226, it could speak to law makers, peace makers (ddk), vehicle makers etcetera.

Getting it right isn't easy is it? I mean 500 watts=2 strings of batteries=5 miles. That's easy to verbalize. Psychic shit-anger, rage, depression, oppression, that's hard. Not impossible though, especially today. You CAN make a difference.

Your interests = mine in the end.
I tell you what I hear.
John: freedom, choice, peace, respect,+X, unity, because I'm sure there's more.
Fingers: i can't put fingers into words yet
LFP: freedom, choice, peace, respect
Dogman: enlightenment, respect, peace
HAROX: parallel freedom respect
Amberwolf: respect, conservation, relief
Kent: sanity, clarity, respect
Chalo: sanity, clarity, peace, respect
BigMoose: sanity, clarity, peace, respect, freedom and more
veloman: peace, unity, clarity, respect
Those I have left out of the list, (15,219) accept my dumb ass apology
Like it or not we stand together.
Maybe you take for granted, I sure don't, that we can stand on different geographies and grapple with the same grievances. So, remember you can have the whole thing today, where before in history, you couldn't.
Consensus is the prize of the free world. The internet is the tool du jour. There are lawmakers inclined to follow just this sort of thing. They only require that we mean it, and say it, and write it where they can get emotionally charged enough to make it into something they can push. Then they give their life blood to make shit happen for their adoptive concerns.
That's hard work, law making. So is bike making, and car making, etcetera.

 

[John in CR]

Harox, what's the truce for? I didn't realize there was any issue. I certainly don't have any grievance. If you want to reorganize my words in a better order, feel free, and I'll speak up about wording changes. Artful writing was never my thing.

Chalo otoh has too much troll in him for a truce. While I realize that it's best to avoid feeding trolls, I find his odd combination of political correctness, hypocrisy, prejudice, and hatred of ebikes too offensive to ignore. I apologize to the rest of you in advance.

John

 

[HAROX]

Harox, what's the truce for? I didn't realize there was any issue. I certainly don't have any grievance. If you want to reorganize my words in a better order, feel free, and I'll speak up about wording changes. Artful writing was never my thing.John

oh but i disagree, artful is your ace.

Chalo otoh has too much troll in him for a truce. While I realize that it's best to avoid feeding trolls, I find his odd combination of political correctness, hypocrisy, prejudice, and hatred of ebikes too offensive to ignore. I apologize to the rest of you in advance.

John

john. so many words, few will do, most of the time. wish mr C felt the same way. he just goes off!
i'd point out that he's been servicing the U of frikken T for a spell. sometimes i think he's the authority, and then he gets wacko, more wacko than me. i could kick myself in the ass for saying some things, even today
i would but i'm using it to write with right now...

 

[Sunder]

Not following on from the last couple posts, today seemed a particularly bad day for road rage. Usually I go at least a month between the occasional honk, and never had I had a verbal threat yelled at me.

However, today, I had one honk (I did the last 300m in the right lane (outer high speed lane), as I needed to turn right there.) and one death threat. The second one disturbed me more, because I wasn't even doing anything that would hold anyone up. 1m from the kerb, 4 or 5 cars pass me without incident - they didn't even have to move to the next lane to over take - but the last one slows down, winds down his window and screams "Get off the road or I'll run your f***ing ass over".

The thing is, reading anti-cycling posts on the news board, there are plenty of people who have said "If I knew I could get away with it, or make it look like their fault, I'd run a cyclist over". And someone has - injured about a dozen cyclists, did about 50k worth of to bikes and ended an olympic hopeful's dream - and got away with a traffic fine for failing to stop at the scene of an accident.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/cycle-pack-smash-driver-questioned/2008/05/09/1210131206412.html

(There are others, but I can't find the links - there were follow up stories from this one, which make it fairly clear that it was intentional )

I'm thinking I should take a longer path that is then more dedicated bike path, even though it adds nearly 10 minutes to the ride (Slow speed zone, and about 1.5km longer).

What do people think? Worth just swallowing my pride, and letting go of my rights, and just go a safer, longer route, or just get people more used to having bikes on the road, and the risk of my own life?

 

[_Chris_]

Years ago I used to ride a normal bike everywhere and occasionally get abused by idiots who don't know road rules or put into precarious situations by worse idiots in cars.

Then comes my first 22 km/h 200w pedal assist bike and not much was different on the road. When I modified it to do 40 km/h I started noticing a lot more consideration from drivers as I was moving closer to their speed. Faster bike = less trouble. i always ride close to the gutter to allow passing and dont hog lanes holding up cars.

When the Ebike came I could catch them and give them some "education" if they compromised my safety or yell at me out the window while passing. They are much less brave when the car isn't moving and they are stuck at lights or something. It's amazing how the apologies begin when an enraged cyclist is a meter from them.

It hasn't happened to me in years which is good.

People in cars will risk your life so they are not late to their destination.

They annoy me at times to if they are going slow.

Thats why bicyclists annoy us because of the inconvenience slowing down.

 

[MattyCiii]

Sunder,
A helmet camera helps in this regard a lot.
Someone harasses you, point to the camera and say/yell/mouth "Police". Make sure you point that camera at their face, and at their license plate.

Whether or not you go to the police with the footage, post it to youtube and write state name and tag number in the title. Some day if they actually do harm someone while driving (accidental or not), the victim will hopefully google the tag number and the road rager will have an established pattern of motorcar brutality that speaks to intent. It can be the difference betwrrn an accident and assault with a deadly weapon.

 

[The fingers]

Sunder,
I would opt for the bike path during daylight hours, a few minutes of enjoyment is better than a day's worth of cager frustration IMO.

 

[Ykick]

Yes to the helmet camera! In my situation, it makes a big difference how Taxis and Busses behave. Even pedestrians can't help but notice and often decide against going through the crosswalk against the light.

And in the event I buy the farm at least my wife and loved ones may have some leads to work with. We should be using them as equalizers and evidence gathering everytime we ride.

 

[MadRhino]

Cars in town are slow, taking a lot of space, and behave like idiots most of the time. In the winter it is even worse on snowy or slushy streets, they become blind idiots with poor control and no brakes. To ride a bike in those conditions is fighting for your life every day, you need to have eyes on everything around and to plan escape solutions for all eventualities. I am lucky that my commute is not very long and I still can have fun riding it.

 

[John in CR]

Sunder,

The instant cure is a faster bike with more acceleration than cars. When you cross paths with far fewer cars, the odds of getting run down by one decrease by an even greater %. The spacing and timing of those interactions become your choice, not theirs, and you are never an inconvenience to them so they can't get upset.

Of course increased speed increases your risk in the event of an accident, but the responsibility to avoid accidents is your hands, not theirs. Plus it's quite easy to reduce the risk of an accident to such a low level that your overall risk is lower by orders of magnitude. Instead of being a slow moving object you must rely on them to avoid, they're the slow moving (relative to you) objects for you to avoid. I've seen how they drive, and I don't want my life in their hands.

Stop signs aren't a big inconvenience, and stop lights are a pleasure to wait for green, because it's an opportunity to show off. That means they have no reason to rage. Having them in awe is far better than them raging.

John

 

[Chalo]

The instant cure is a faster bike with more acceleration than cars. When you cross paths with far fewer cars, the odds of getting run down by one decrease by an even greater %.

Your feeble, crude little motorcycle has two problems in that scenario: First, it's not really engineered to withstand automotive speeds, and has an elevated risk of mechanical failure (and thus crashing) at those speeds. Second and more significantly, you'll still get overtaken due to your vehicle's limited top speed, but you'll be moving much faster when you get overtaken.

In practical terms, you avoided getting right-crossed at the cost of not being able to respond effectively when you get left-crossed. Oh boy.

In the meantime, you're plopped inertly on an improvised vehicle that long since ceased being a decent bicycle, and has an even longer way to go before it could be called a decent motorcycle. Congratulations. How long until you figure out that a good electric two-wheeler is an electrically powered version of something that is already a good two-wheeler?

 

[slacker]

can we please lock this thread as we seem to be beating a dead horse.everyone has valid points and should realize the automobile always wins in a crash.just my 2 cents

 

[MadRhino]

It is definitely an advantage to have a good top speed. Better acceleration and shorter braking distance is the best life saver against cars.

IMO, a well built performance ebike is better than a motorcycle to escape a crash on the street. It has better maneuverability and shorter braking distance. No motorcycle can follow me very long in town, cause none of them can react as fast in the traffic.

 

[Harold in CR]

Chalo, down here, 99.9% of ALL vehicles have a clutch to slip, to get moving. By then, John is half way across the intersection, or more. Also, MOST vehicles that stand a chance to have any hope of hitting you, are 4 Cylinder, vehicles, so again, they don't stand a chance.

You haven't ridden one of Johns bikes. I have. They are MUCH stouter than a Bicycle, and, are not about to have much problem with mechanical failure. They are nearly as simple a design as a bicycle.

Also, all you need to do is beat the lead cars off the line. The rest are still occupied with blowing their horns. :lol: :lol:

 

[HAROX]

please Don't sink this thread, anyone. Your valid points, plus GEOGRAPHY is a simple way to convey how Rage is the issue supreme, so needless to stray from That.
(geography+ environment/culture example:
This forum may not realize, you, Chalo, serve your school/community, you're in love with the physics in the design of any good machinery. And if that ain't complicated enough, then there's good old U-T's environment, turning you into a version of "Wonder Wart Hog",
(the cartoon, no disrespect! The most memorable cartoon in the world IMO.


You're knee deep over there. Location location location.
The rage threat remains the same. Rage is what this thread is about.
Other than your own bad self, you're as normal as me.
And as for everybody else, I'd rather hear chalo's "guts" on the subject than not.

BTW trolls don't sink threads. Members who got nothing to say do.

 

[Sunder]

Definitely agree that faster bikes get less agro, though, I think yesterday, they guy would have done the same thing had I been stationary at the lights. Some people just want to watch all cyclists burn, for past real or imagined inconveniences, where they couldn't get the insult or retort in, and it doesn't matter which cyclist.

Also, if I was going to build a bike where I couldn't pedal, I'd rather just get a second hand 600cc bike. I'd then be fully licensed and insured. Rego and insurance would set me back $200/year and petrol would be $15/month, but I'd be fully legit and get even less agro on the road.

 

[_Chris_]

What really annoys me is I have a car I pay for including the taxes that pay for the road. I am new than happy to remind someone of that. Most adult cyclists would be the same.

 

[Sunder]

What really annoys me is I have a car I pay for including the taxes that pay for the road. I am new than happy to remind someone of that. Most adult cyclists would be the same.

What most drivers are unaware of, is that registration doesn't go anywhere near the amount to pay for roads. All it pays for is... Get this... The administration of the registration system. This is why if you have two cars, you don't get any discount on the second rego despite not driving any more than the average person.

Roads are paid for from several places:

1. Federal roads out of income tax
2. State roads out of part federal funding and part land/payroll taxes
3. Local streets out of council rates

So if you have a job and own or rent a property, you're paying for the roads whether you cycle only, or own a car. What pisses me off, is when people say I don't pay anything for the roads. BS. I pay over $50k/year in income tax, before you even consider GST, land tax and council rates.

 

[John in CR]

Definitely agree that faster bikes get less agro, though, I think yesterday, they guy would have done the same thing had I been stationary at the lights. Some people just want to watch all cyclists burn, for past real or imagined inconveniences, where they couldn't get the insult or retort in, and it doesn't matter which cyclist.

The bravado of some of those jerks stems from thought that they can do it anonymously and be gone. Contrary to Elvis's feeble grasp of reality (my bikes will disintegrate while riding LOL!), on my daily rider said jerk could only escape if on or near the highway. I would run him down quite readily and explain in no uncertain terms that his attitude toward cyclists needs to change, because we aren't the insects he seems to think. There are infinite ways that can go, which depend on you, the situation, the offense, or the equipment you have such as video, but the incident can range from just following him in a quite obvious manner and pretending to write the license plate down at a stop, to a full blown conversation that ends with them agreeing. Just be sure to keep you own rage in check, so you aren't the gasoline on the fire of a regrettable incident.

Everyone with a sufficiently able ebike can be part of the solution. I haven't had a single incident, since going to my current extreme power ebike, but I did have a few when my cargo ebike was my main ride. One followed threateningly close and didn't heed my signals to back off, so I pulled to the side and then followed him. He was a bit too fast for the cops liking in front of school, so when I quickly explained and gave the plate number, and one of them took off on his moto to have a talk with the guy. The 3 others I was able to have conversations with, all of which ended with their apology. One passed when it wasn't appropriate. One passed well under a foot from my handlebar, and the other passed and immediately turned.

While there might be 1 in a million or 10 million that actually want to run us down, regular people don't. They make mistakes mostly because the risk to the cyclist doesn't cross their mind and don't appreciate how dangerous their mistakes because we're so exposed. Apparently some don't even understand our rights to be on the road. Explaining to someone about how you are still trembling with adrenaline because they just almost killed you, produces real results. I've seen a couple of these people around cyclists after our talk, and they were overtly careful. It works.

Also, if I was going to build a bike where I couldn't pedal, I'd rather just get a second hand 600cc bike. I'd then be fully licensed and insured. Rego and insurance would set me back $200/year and petrol would be $15/month, but I'd be fully legit and get even less agro on the road.

That's a completely different vehicle than an ebike, and feels like a big sluggish pig compared to a high power ebike.

John

 

[HAROX]

let's see. where's the suck-up-the-key-stuff button on this computer ?
so i can tally this up! Here are some triggers, as quoted from this thread.

I'd suggest separating the misunderstandings and miscommunications from the looney irrational stuff. irrational stuff is the rage that begets more rage that begets more rage.

what causes this rage against cyclists, and this rage against other motorists??
" we know they are subsidized to drive
"they rage against us, who share their subsidized roadway.
reality may be they couldn't drive if not subsidized, so more rage.
punishment of the people for using the roads causes more rage
rage and desperation are cousins
the moral order is breeched
breaking laws causes it
unpaid unacknowledged benefit causes rage
free riding is an accelerant
chasing a punishment is a sign of it.
against the machine there is rage
cheating is an accelerant
density, getting in the way causes it
annoyance triggers rage
ignoring without consequence causes it
people bring this upon themselves (duh)
the perception of ignorance causes it
keeping to the rules others break causes it
suffering no consequence for death causes it
when justice has no accountability, rage
rationalizing the cheating causes rage
fundamentally flawed attribution phenom
being annoyed with pedestrians is rage as well
threatening someone is rage
greed causes rage
free rides, breeding bad behavior causes it
jaywalkers break the rules causing rage
not being aware causes it
lack of understanding causes it
asinine behavior causes it
fight or flight can trigger it
a class oriented struggle can feed it
lack of respect
size disparity causes it
lack of acceptance causes it
being judgmental causes it
reprimanding some one strange can cause it
reprimanding your wife can cause it
trying to educate them triggers it
bad behavior
the double standard causes it
running a red light
ethical misunderstandings
ethical retardation
being unaware
being a low speed cyclist
being a high speed cyclist
running with traffic
running behind traffic
bending the law does it
shifting the rules
being discourteous
unconventional maneuvering
unsafe operation
rationalizing unsafe operation
endangering behavior
rudeness
disobeying the law
disregarding the law
disregarding the physics
riding with "personality"
shirking responsibility for blame
ethics trumping physics
being confrontational
having to submit
shifting blame
being out of control
knowing the truth can trigger it
being expected to share
disgusting reality
non conventional maneuvering
holding one's temper can trigger it
the riot act triggers it
jealousy could
feeling put upon could
feeling judged
feeling betrayed
feeling snubbed
feeling ostracized
wrong place wrong time syndrome
being confronted
slow dense traffic
built up sentiments explode into it
no acknowledgement
hiding one's own rage can
venting one's own rage
Some of this can be mitigated through understanding, some through education, some through, law, and some through shifting the paradigm I like this word. I think it's a key word for mitigating the whole mess.
Thanks to Chalo, for putting up with being riddled. Thanks to John, which BTW, rides a bike every bit as strong as one could wish for. And Thanks ahead of time, to any interested party who can take this list and make the experience safer.
Peace.

 

[arkmundi]

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20130212-why-you-really-hate-cyclists

Just saw this article ... very interesting.

No, my theory is that motorists hate cyclists because they think they offend the moral order. Driving is a very moral activity – there are rules of the road, both legal and informal, and there are good and bad drivers. The whole intricate dance of the rush-hour junction only works because people know the rules and by-and-large follow them: keeping in lane; indicating properly; first her turn, now mine, now yours. Then along come cyclists, innocently following what they see are the rules of the road, but doing things that drivers aren't allowed to: overtaking queues of cars, moving at well below the speed limit or undertaking on the inside.

But, and this is the really BIG but - that's without considering everything that the ICE'rs put out, including the carbon emissions, climate change and the perpetual war machine to protect the oil and keep accessible to the US market, to name just a few. So yea, eBikers arise! Impunity on the road. We are the new moral order of the world.

When players were confronted with a free-rider, almost everyone put themselves at the upper end of the anger scale. Fehr and Gachter describe these emotions as a “proximate mechanism”. This means that evolution has built into the human mind a hatred of free-riders and cheaters, which activates anger when we confront people acting like this – and it is this anger which prompts altruistic punishment. In this way, the emotion is evolution's way of getting us to overcome our short-term self-interest and encourage collective social life.

I do, I'm a free-rider free-rider free-rider . Love me or hate me, it ain't going to change.

 

[friendly1uk]

I have never thought of cyclists as getting something for free. It would be silly. The same opportunities are there for all.

I have the same rage for anything that gets in my way needlessly. Usually a motorbike that squeezes to the front when I need to get off the line quick before my lane vanishes. Que jumping is offensive when done by people at the bus stop, the shopping tills, or in vehicles. Bikes however are expected to creep up the inside, they are not competing vehicles, they are just on the same route. It is I that am in their way as often as they are in mine. Often I'm stopped, but they can hop off and cross as pedestrians. As could I if I was the cyclist. To feel bitter would just be selfish.


I have to say I'm an outsider. The least selfish person you will meet. So I won't conform and become an idiot. I can't sit back and let others carry me. I don't play with them. I'm self sufficient which I think makes a huge difference. I don't compete. I'm only effected if someone actually hinders my progress unfairly.