Tucson Death Race 2011 roll call. Results on page 1

[etard]

I'm not familiar with motorized bikes too much, what's the deal with the Morini's anyway? Do they have a transmission or a CVT or something? Also, these motors are available to the public, right, so of you wanna race and be fast wouldn't you just bite the bullet and buy the fast motor? It's not like you see the second place finisher at a MotoGP race say, " Yeah, I woulda beat Rossi if I had a Yamaha, I think he has an unfair advantage." Give me a break, I guess I will have to sign up for another forum and help you guys straighten this out.

 

[John in CR]

I wouldn't consider it a real win, unless the morini's could compete.

Agreed. I've raced regular stinkbikes a number of times. From a stop I easily triple their distance in the first 100, and when I see them on the road at max speed I blow by them like they're standing still and I'm at nowhere near max speed. I realize the Death Race competitors will have better tuned machines, but they're still in the same general class, and Dogman already outclassed that class and just a flag recognition error prevented him from bringing home the gold. With his recent step up in voltage Dogman will be significantly faster this year.

 

[FMB42]

Sure is fun to drift the corners though. And cool looking. Watching those motard vids is really good for jacking up for the race.

I used to drift corners on a KZ750 by putting power on the wheel. It was brake, lean, then power on till you start countersteering.

I used to drift my KZ650 (the father of your KZ750) on curvy rain slick mountain roads by just entering the corner a little too hot. Sometimes the only way you knew you were drifting was because of the "loss" of feed back. A lot of fun for sure...

However, I used to drift my my Bultaco 250, Husky 390, and Honda 480 "crossers" by applying power with an occasional tap on the rear brake (and/or by downshifting) as a means of initiating a bit of rear end swing out. This was on flat "no berm to ricochet off of " corners.

However, on my lighter road bikes (Yam RD 250, R5 350, and RD 400) I often used the "scrubbing speed" technique at the very apex of "slower and/or tight corners". Back then the term "scrubbing speed" = "lean so hard that it slows you down" (this is, of course, hard on your tires) . This technique was, in my experience, best used while never letting off on the throttle.

I'm wondering if pavement racing e-bikes might benefit from the "scrubbing speed" technique that was/is so popular on smaller light weight road machines...

 

[John in CR]

That's why my only chance is to overpower you guys on the straights. My goal will be no scrubbing, drifting, backing in, or anything else that loses traction of either wheel at anytime. I take that back, if the bike wants to, maybe I'll let the front tire come off the ground in that final straight after the race is already well in hand.

 

[Evoforce]

The thing is, it (is) about the money that you can afford. Most of the gassers, I know, say the electrics are too expensive to buy into. Especially if you are going to build one for racing. So I imagine, even the more expensive gas engines are (out) for many also. Most of us electric guy's are just bleeding for sponsors. I hope that I can afford to go myself. Of course, I couldn't let you guys down on trying to beat me out of the current e-bike championship position. :wink: 8) Soooo.....come hell or high water..... i'm going to try to make it again. I need some help with my racebike though. I need a lead on a good (inexpensive) 72 volt bms and charger(min 5 amp) for my headway pack. Might even be willing to go 80 or 100 something volts. The way things are going, I may still only have it ratted together for this race too. This time I hope it can race in the main event instead of having to race my tail heavy commuter. So to give hope to all of you out there considering racing, anyone can win but be prepared to bring it on.

 

[liveforphysics]

Evoforce- remember, a BMS is a very bad idea on anything designed for racing.

 

[Evoforce]

I fried one of my bms's the night before the race. They were not hooked up on the p- to controller anyway before that, Anyway... I went there without bms's connected and totally unbalanced my headways in the practice laps leading up to the race and consequently fried four batteries. I understand some that are racing motorcycles are having trouble with their bms's cutting out on them while racing and have talked about bypass switches in case of that moment. Of course, I also plan on riding this (if I can ever get it together) as a regular rider.

 

[AussieJester]

lil taste of the power we will likely see this year, too frighten the motoredbike.com member's that maybe snooping for information hehehe :lol:

How is everyone's builds progressing for those attending the race? are we on track so to speak? :lol:

KiM

 

[Evoforce]

I've got the guts to mine strewn about and the fiberglass battery holder remains unfinished. I am going to have to make a discision whether to run the 5303 or the 5304 motor on this rig at the race. Obviously, if I had the money and the know-how I would lighten this rig up a little with lipo. Basically, other than pulling all of the batteries out and working on them and patching the tire, I haven't had the time to do anything else. My schedual also looks completely full well past race day. I was rear ended in a vehicle at the beginning of last year and have an ankle that has to be rebuilt and haven't had the time to go into surgery. Still have to fight with their insurance company about replacing my car at a reasonable price(they totaled it) and then fight with them about my ankle. When I get my ankle done it will cost me thousands and put me down a good three months without being able to put any pressure on it. We had a storm come through here in Oct. and my battle with the insurance company is now beginning....ON and on I could write a book....

 

[dogman dan]

Get some voltage monitors from HK, and run them on the pack. You'll be able to see if a section of the pack is low. Or maybe even a bank of cheap voltmeters monitoring each 24v section of the pack. You'll be able to see if one part of it is sagging. Then since you are racing, you can ignore it and murder some cells anyway.

I'll be running some HK beepers on my pack, but no way am I going to get off till they are running in the 2.5v per cell area.

 

[John in CR]

...I am going to have to make a discision whether to run the 5303 or the 5304 motor on this rig at the race....

Both.

 

[etard]

Doubt you will be able to hear them beep amongst all those stinkers polluting the air with noise... That is when you are lapping them. :lol:

Dogman, is it just that one stretch that allows speeds above 30-35 mph and you have gotten over 50 on the straight. Or is there other parts of the track that riders get above 35 mph on?

 

[SoSauty]

The Morini's are rated at 5.8hp & 9.4hp, Not certain which are in common use. 9.4hp seems would run over 50mph in the 1/8th mile straights, so I'm guessing the 5.8hp versions are being used (with mods). An Astro 3220 is rated around 5.6hp for a very rough electric to ICE comparison.

Honda Musselman races start on a 740' straight if you include a fast gentle curve that prededes it, 2 little tight twisties, then the 560' straight that needs braking only if you're 40+ as there's 100' sweeping curve following. Then there's a half mile of turns where top racers peak around 35mph. The 3rd decent straight of 420' precedes an off camber hairpin #13turn before leading back on to the starting straight. Supposed to be .8 mile but maybe closer to .9 mile per lap with a racing line. Top lap times are 86-89 second range for average speeds of 31 to 34 mph; peak speeds in the 43-46mph range. Should be some records this April.

Yea, want to finish just ahead of Luke and hope they wave the checkered before he laps me! I'm grey headed and want to watch the main event from mid pack :wink:

My 'Toy Racer' a 50lb Schwinn/Astro3210 is on track. Ordering 10 to 14 more Lipo's next week. Need to implement a 2 speed chainring type shifter on the rear which will require designing and machining a fitting for derailer. Today I'm switching out the 44T for a 39T sprocket to get a more realiistic top end. Sunday I want to break in the Lipo's, understand how it performs (accelerates/handles/brakes outstanding) and get the CA fully functioning, on the Watts level and useage is reporting, no speed/distance recorded.

 

[etard]

Sosauty,
Thanks for that, I'm actually asking what the track will allow speed-wise. I'm thinking torque will be the winner in the race, lots of turns.

Good to hear you are about to embark on your maiden voyage! I believe your bike will be top 5 finisher easy. On the 2 speed shifter: I wonder if you could use the shift mechanism from the front shifter to get the necessary range of the 2 speeds? You could still use the rear der. just it's motion will match that of the front der. Sounds like you got a tone of batteries, I'm jealous! Did you take advantage of the 1 cent shipping?

 

[dogman dan]

I don't think I've even hit 40 mph on that track. The longest straight is only about 700' the real numbers are there on the track website. Mussleman P1 honda circuit. The long one may not be so fast though, since turn 2 is a SOB! But it's where you pass guys for sure, when you have the top speed. Ability to outrun em on the straight after turn 2 is our E advantage for sure. The fastest straight may be the shorter one at the finish line, since much higher corner speeds are possible on turn 13. On my bike, I spend a lot of time bouncing between 25 on the slowest corners and 35 on the short straights.

Chasing Alex in the main on last falls race, I could gain on him on the straights, but cornering as fast as him, fogettaboutit. The tricky middle portion of the track, as soon as I was no longer right on his wheel, I'd start taking the corners a bit slower. Only when following his line exactly was I cornering perfect. You know how it is, local track for him. And he's a madman. The tightest corner on the track on the backside gave me no trouble since there are so many corners one after another, I found it hard to hit that one too fast. Expect a lot of crowding on turn 4 in the first lap if you don't outrun em by then. That one suprises me more than any other turn, and something about it leads to lots of riders taking it with a goofy line.

 

[SoSauty]

Etard, here's a link to the track map, google earth gives a good view as well.
http://www.p1kartcircuit.com/track-map.html
Print it and place under your pillow at nite so 3 laps will be like 30 laps when you ride there in April.

NOoo, didn't get 1cent shipping. I missed the group buy; was offerred a small discount, but when trying to place my order it was 1st rejected due to weight, then due to high amp-hrs. Had to split it up into 3 parts, the latter 2 parts dropped my discount But there was some number indicating that particular Lipo was almost out of stock and so I grabbed enough for a 30amp-hr batt pack.

Dogmanz, by my estimates, I'm giving you a 41mph top speed You hung on to the tail of some guy (?Alex) that reported a 42mph top speed, I forget just who I talked to in garnering that info

 

[dogman dan]

Maybe I was. I just never actually saw it on the speedo, and didn't reset my speedo for the day on the track so I didn't get a track max speed from it. At those speeds, only looking at the next corner.

Fast guys are taking nearly every corner at 30 mph, Average fast guys are cornering at 25 mph. For me, getting into those corners above 25 is where the real riders show thier balls, and the wannabes show us how to leave the track. I found 25 mph conering fun but not really challenging. But approaching 30 mph, small mistakes get all huge.


35 mph in between corners is not unusual. For the average fast guys, I think 35 mph may be thier max speed. Pretty sure Alex is making it to , or close to 40 mph on the faster sections. Dave claimed to be topping out at 45 mph on the straights with his morini.

The race will be won by a quick response between 30 mph and 40 mph, and 156 perfectly executed corners.

Looking again at the track map, the longest straight is the start finsh straight. No wonder you are cooking it into turn 2 all the time. Turn 1 is nice and wide and not a hairpin. Turn 2 is a hairpin, and a gotcha. But when people slow down for turn 2, that straight after it is when the acceleration of ebikes can shine, and you can do lots of passing. Turn 3 is easy as pie, so you can really cook into it. 4 is where it piles up and the inside gets very crowded. What do you do? The outside line is going to have some dork shoving you further out. Inisde, you will rub wheels and elbows. Hitting that corner in 1st place is where it's at. The snakey part after turn 4 can be taken very fast. Turn 8 is not too bad, but a bit bumpy leading into it. It has a faster inside groove for sure. 9 looks like the hard one on the map, but turn 8 slows you enough to not have bad problems with 9-10. You do see a lot of weird lines taken in that one as the wannabees misjudge it. 11 and 12 are no particular problem, and you can still take a wide line to pass if you need to. 13 is a gotcha. You will take it at 30 mph + and it will give you real trouble if the inside groove is occupied. You'll get sucked into the pit lane exiting, and may do a patch of dirt to get back on track. You can now throttle all the way to the finish line without worrying about turn 1 coming up, you'll have room to brake in time after the finsih line. So hang on, pass a few more, take turn 1 fast, but get ready for turn 2! On lap 2 you will hit that turn a LOT faster.

 

[Thud]

Rumers have started we may have a live feed on the net during the event:

http://motorbicycling.com/f35/death-race-4-16-2011-a-26743-13.html

 

[dogman dan]

That will be very cool, No sleep that night for Jester and Hyena. I'll be running a helmet cam in the main event for sure this time. Last fall I got one lap of the main when the card got full.

Looks like we will have some awards for different classes too.

Sooo hard not to keep buying more stuff for the DR at HK. Not possible to have too many lipos, or too fast charging. Practice cornering hard guys. It's more important than having volts.

 

[dogman dan]

Speaking of Death Race coverage, How many of you guys are going to be camera equipped?

I just made a new mount for my helmet cam, on my full face helmet. Right on the chin, so no wierd pov you get from top of head mounts. Should be filming exactly what I look at.


So I will have a spare mount I could loan for the day. the loaner is a small tripod mount bolted to a metal strap. The strap can be screwed to the top of a helmet, or could perhaps be hose clamped to a handlebar stem. Then any camera with a tripod mount can be attached. Lets get this thing filmed from every bike we can.

 

[Thud]

I have been watching e-bay for a decent Go-pro to show up...I missed a couple real deals
But I have 2 of the little keychain cameras & a turnigy micro cam also...just need to get some decent mounts made for the in action stuffs. (& i wish they didn't have such a goofy turn on proccedure...you are never sure if your on the correct "record" senario On the turnigy cam, & the key chain units seem to just turn off whenever they please.

I will have a lap top along to download into so "full" sd cards shouldn't be an issue.

 

[John in CR]

I just looked at the map...Clockwise racing, WTH? Is that something fairly common so people can wear the tires more evenly?

 

[dogman dan]

On a road course, direction doesn't matter. Lots of lefts and rights. There was some talk of running the other direction this time, but the course is set up to run clockwise. Run anticlockwise would be wierd, with such a tight corner right on the finish line. As it's laid out, you have your fastest corner before the long final straight.

Re the cameras, I had lots of problems being sure my hobbyking cam was actually working last time. And thought the card would fit both races. This time I'm using a regular pocket size digital cam that shoots decent video. About the same quality as the go pro. Nice big card, so no problems there this time.

There was lots of cams on heads last fall, but dangit, only Dave and I put em up on you tube. Woulda loved to see the vid from the guy in the white shirt that crashed.

 

[John in CR]

It looks like a pretty big difference to me with 4 of the 5 > 90° turns being to the right, so hard righties are definitely something to be sure to practice. Also, it's a 720° swing in the turns required RH or LH between clockwise and counter clockwise racing. In daily riding I left turn at significant lean so much more on my bike that the tires are more worn on the left. That's primarily caused by many of my RH turns being sharp 90's that require extremely slow upright turns due to loose rocks and sand. I've just never seen clockwise for any kind of racing, so it just seems unnatural.

Maybe it's just me, but at least before any practice I'd be more comfortable with LH turns at speed. If that is typical it might very well be a factor in the number of crashes too, since it sure looks like mostly casual type riders instead of experienced racers.

FWIW, the finish line seems to be in the wrong place for either direction, since in the clockwise direction that sharp 90° turn is only 1.5 seconds or less after the finish line. I better make sure it's not a close finish, so I don't have to be at WOT at the line.

 

[Thud]

John,
One of the most enjoyable facets of track riding is the subtle diferences between each track..& since most tracks are visited several times a year there are often sections that are re-routed for some events & at most tracks we never know which direction will be run before morning practice that day. (not counting ovals) regarding turning right....its a funny thing how humans are more confortable turning left.......but realy, I expect no one competeing will have any bias for left or right turning...most of these guys have some 2 wheele racing experiance & any one who has "practiced" controlling bikes has spent hours turning right until it is as natural as any left. My favorite riding drill is chasing the barrels. A simple exorsize of 100' straights followed by 180deg turns. absolute murder on the equipment, but its fun practice with a buddy.

plane tickets are booked.....I will be staying in Tuscon till mondy morning. Time to start traiing in earnest. 8)