Twist throttle with good mapping

[Swemil]

Can anyone recommend a twist throttle with a nice “feeling”? I want there to be an intuitive relation between the twist angle and the torque/power.

A couple of years ago I bought a 1kW kit from Leaf bike. It is great except I don’t like the throttle.

When I start twisting the power stays at 0W and then suddenly, at around 50% twist I get 1000W almost immediately. I need to focus and look carefully at the hand to get something in between, but even then I can’t control if it’s 200W or 600W.

As a comparison, all motorbikes (combustion) I have driven have had an intuitive relation between wrist movement and torque. I never had to look at my hand while driving.

I heard you can use a resistor to get a different output but I assume that would not change all the dead twist at the start?

 

[eee291]

I think the Cycle Analyst would be the perfect thing for you.

It lets you program and monitor all sorts of neat things

 

[amberwolf]

It depends not just on the throttle, but on the controller's response. Some are programmable, some are not.

The Cycle analyst from http://ebikes.ca would let you "tune" a throttle, taking the input range and matching it to the actual response range of the controller. See the throttle setup pages of Teklektik's UUG linked on the CA page of ebikes.ca for details on how to do that.

Doesnt' change the physical deadzones of a throttle, wehre it's output doesn't start changing, or stops changing, though. You'd have to physically modify the throttle, or try different ones until you find one that works for you. There are threads about modifying throttles of various kinds, I can't find the ones I know are there, though. :/



Also, a potentiometer throttle may have a better physical range of movement / output than a hall throttle; you'd have to test them out and see where their voltage starts to change and ends, vs the rotation.

 

[TommyCat]

I heard you can use a resistor to get a different output but I assume that would not change all the dead twist at the start?

Here is the modification to which you refer.

Yes, it does change the starting dead zone of a hall sensor throttle depending on resistance added, example as mapped...

But from your description of it's operation I would seriously suspect a faulty throttle or other problem. To verify your throttle operation please make use of my Hall Sensor Throttle Thread link below for information on how to do that!

Guide to Hall Sensor Throttle operation, testing, and modification.

There are threads about modifying throttles of various kinds, I can't find the ones I know are there, though. :/

Book em Danno! :lol:

 

[Swemil]

Here is the modification to which you refer.

Wow! I checked out your old post.
Will start to analyze and try some different resistors.

 

[TommyCat]

Terrific!
Recommend checking that throttle's sensor output first. :?
And nothing beats a mini pot to easily dial in exactly what you need as far as resistance. Then you can always replace it with the known set resistor value that can't be accidently changed, and takes up less space.

 

[Swemil]

Thanks for the advice, evenryone. I might look into the cycle analyst in the future.

For now I will start with trying out some different resistances and throttles.

I am still curious if someone can recommend a twist throttle that is good in general. Apart from what i mentioned in my first post I am also looking for something more robust and less plasticky.

 

[amberwolf]

These are a few threads with discussion about "quality" throttles, but there's no perfect solution.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=topics&keywords=throttle%2A&sf=titleonly
Nobody appears to make a metal-body throttle except for cable operated ones, and one (domino?) potentiometer based unit.

Everything else is plastic (including magura and most motorcycle / atv / etc throttles).

The cable oeprated throttles for gas engines can be used to control a pot box, or a cable-pulled hall throttle; there's a number of products out there for ATVs/etc that will do it. (some info in some of the throttle threads)

 

[Tolkano]

I made the same thread a while ago. I ended up adding a 150 ohm resistor on the ground of my throttle and it moved the idle point from 0.83v to 1.17v (wheel moves at 1.23v)

Removed almost all the dead zone and there's just a tiny bit left for safety

 

[AHicks]

If this is anything like the Leaf System I have, it uses a KT based controller and an LCD3 display. Point being it's very adjustable as is.

I noticed this same very poor throttle modulation. It was more like an on-off switch giving you full throttle or nothing. What I figured out is this is happening only while the PAS system is working/engaged. If you stop pedaling, the throttle modulation changes to something more along the lines of what one might expect from a throttle.

 

[E-HP]

If this is anything like the Leaf System I have, it uses a KT based controller and an LCD3 display. Point being it's very adjustable as is.

I noticed this same very poor throttle modulation. It was more like an on-off switch giving you full throttle or nothing. What I figured out is this is happening only while the PAS system is working/engaged. If you stop pedaling, the throttle modulation changes to something more along the lines of what one might expect from a throttle.

I just switched out my throttle, but had several observations on my crappy old throttle (also using a KT controller and LCD3).

1.When using throttle only, I get about 7 degrees of rotation (dead zone) before there is any response, and then over the next 7 degrees, the response goes from zero to near full throttle.
2. When the motor is already operating under PAS, then any movement of the throttle (the "dead zone"), provides near full throttle response, so sort of additive to what PAS is providing.
3. This is the most interesting; when using throttle only, and dropping down to the dead zone, the motor will brake, but without regen. Feels sort of like driving a manual transmission in first gear, where letting off the accelerator slows the car due to engine braking. This doesn't happen when coming off of PAS and throttle, only when operating throttle only.

I know with the open source firmware, the KT/LCD3 can utilize variable regen, so maybe this behavior has some connection to that capability.

 

[AHicks]

E-HP, would you mind expanding a little on the throttle you went with? What is it (a link would be nice)? Your impressions regarding available throttle modulation with/without PAS in play - how the new compares to the old?

I've never cared for twist throttles (hard on your wrist, impossible to let go of in some situations, etc.), preferring thumb instead. So when ordering the Leaf, I bought their thumb throttle.

 

[E-HP]

E-HP, would you mind expanding a little on the throttle you went with? What is it (a link would be nice)? Your impressions regarding available throttle modulation with/without PAS in play - how the new compares to the old?

I've never cared for twist throttles (hard on your wrist, impossible to let go of in some situations, etc.), preferring thumb instead. So when ordering the Leaf, I bought their thumb throttle.

It's just another cheap one from Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07PN5HMVY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I don't use throttle much, except on a hill or from a stop, so I never knew how bad my old one was until I messed up my leg and had to ride throttle only for a while. The new one is better, but I've only ridden the bike twice with it. The dead zone is more narrow, but I'll likely add a pot to tune some of it out. I did notice that the strange braking behavior is still there, so maybe a function of KT controllers. The motor brakes, but the display doesn't show regen or braking. I'll do more testing this weekend.

 

[AHicks]

I think that MAYBE what you are interpreting as braking in that dead span area, is just the normal resistance from an un-powered direct drive hub. Or, put another way, if you have the bike upside down and give the rear wheel a spin, it pretty much stops in a quarter turn or so. That's the downside of DD in many people's minds, though personally, it doesn't bother me a bit as I'm nearly always pedaling, so the bike nearly always has SOME power on it. FWIW, -Al

 

[E-HP]

I think that MAYBE what you are interpreting as braking in that dead span area, is just the normal resistance from an un-powered direct drive hub. Or, put another way, if you have the bike upside down and give the rear wheel a spin, it pretty much stops in a quarter turn or so. That's the downside of DD in many people's minds, though personally, it doesn't bother me a bit as I'm nearly always pedaling, so the bike nearly always has SOME power on it. FWIW, -Al

Thanks. I thought maybe that was it, but if I'm coming off of PAS, the bike coasts pretty freely when no power is being delivered, but when putting the throttle into the dead zone, the bike slows a lot more. I'm going to try adjusting/up the regen level and see if the motor braking is affected/increased just to see if there's any correlation. I actually noticed the weird behavior back when I first installed the kit, but didn't really put a lot of effort into figuring out what was going on since I don't use throttle that much anyway.

I'm going to experiment a little with pedaling from a stop, applying no throttle, and then doing the same but applying a little throttle into the dead zone to see if the motor resistance increases.

EDIT: quick test just now. When at speed and releasing the throttle, the bike coasts freely. Applying throttle in the dead zone and the motor brakes and slows the bike.