Ultra Caps?

[paultrafalgar]

Surely, the point about both batteries and ultracapacitors is that the rare (or not) elements in them are not used up, just rendered to another state by chemical degradation. If you can reprocess the batteries, there is no problem. I understand that a very high percentage of lead is recycled from batteries.
Yes, if the volume of element X is insufficient to make all the batteries/ultracapacitors needed, you have a problem, but I suspect a rational society would soon now find a way to harness/store sunshine in a way that is pretty much indefinately sustainable.
First find your rational society :wink:

 

[Link]

To add to my last post about lithium's rarety, I check the same wiki chart and came up with a couple other interesting comparisons:

Lithium vs Copper: 10 times more.
Lithium vs Lead: about 50 times more.

Now who wrote up that blurb about lithium's rarety?

It's not that lithium is rare, it's that FREE lithium is rare. It's very reactive, so it's not common to find it in its elemental state. If I remember correctly, there are only a handful of lithium mines in the world. And, since nobody's come up with an easy, cheap way to extract it from ore/compounds, its price is way higher than copper or lead. Once someone figured out a good processing...um...process, I'd expect the price of all types of lithium-based chemistries to go down quite a bit.

 

[swbluto]

True. Both truths can be inferred from it's chemical make up. If I remember correctly, it has a proton number of 3 so that means it's going to be relatively abundant(the further up you go in atomic number, there's a tendency for it to become rarer due to a star's nucleosynthesis) BUT it's also going to be very reactive as the next stable point is 8 and it comes right after the last stable point of 2(So it has 1 valence electron). So, that means, it's going to readily attach to any element it encounters and it's going to be quite a booger(a lot of energy) to extract it.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

...What has got me interested in ultra caps is EEstor's new patent...

They are using multilayered barium titanate ceramic capacitor and are boasting a healthy 450 W/H per KG thats a good 4500 watt hours for a 10 kg pack that can charge in minutes.

The only limitation to these ultracaps is they won't charge under -20c temperature and don’t like anything above 60c and this is a small set back to some consumers. Like if you charge somewhere in northern canada mid winter you may need to include heating elements just to take the temp up a little.

The main limitation is they are vaporware.

Does anyone know why the voltage limit on these ultra-caps is so low?

Generally, to increase capacitance with "standard" dielectric material(the insulator between the plates to prevent a short-circuit), the plates are brought closer together which ends up reducing the "safe voltage" as it takes less voltage for the short-circuit to happen. (larger voltages can short-circuit across longer gaps in a given dielectric, including air. Believe or not, but "static electricity" is beyond 1000v which is why it seems to be able to jump across longer distances than the voltages we work at.)

The reason for a little bit of optimism is they EEStor claims to have a dielectric material that they can mass produce and the purity has been independently certified (my sister works for the company that did the certification). A dielectric that meets their specifications seems to be the main obstacle to doing producing a product that meets their claims.

This might turn out to be interesting:
http://greenlight.greentechmedia.com/2008/10/21/is-this-the-way-to-build-electric-cars-669/

The first project out of the company is KERS, which stands for Kinetic Energy Recuperation System. It is an “energy recuperation” system commissioned by a company that supplies components to Formula 1 cars. The KERS charger will consist of 200 of APowerCap’s cells. That is a single cell in the picture. The company showed off a 14-cell prototype at a meeting.

APowerCap will subsequently move onto producing ultracapacitors for electronic bike...

I sent an email requesting information last Friday and so far don't have a response:

I am very interested in what you plan for electric bicycles. Would it be feasible to completely replace a Li-Ion battery pack with ultracapacitors? By feasible I mean available, affordable and would weight or space be issues?

If you don't want to give out specific details at this time some general information would be nice. Do you plan to power the bicycle completely with ultracapacitors or use them to supplement batteries?

Very rough ballpark figures on pricing and size and weight would also helpful.

This is their site:
http://www.apowercap.com/

 

[paultrafalgar]

APowerCap website under products says:
"APowerCap offers ultracapacitors that have been designed using our proprietary breakthrough ultracapacitor technology. This unique technology allowed us to reach values of specific power that exceed 5 kW/kg at a 95% efficiency that corresponds to more than 20 kW/kg at a 50%, keeping the energy density within 1.5-4.5 Wh/kg despite the use of low-cost nanoporous carbon."

The crucial figure is that 1.5-4.5Wh/kg. Our ebikes are doing about 20Wh/mile so that means the range is about 7kg/mile. That make Lead Acid look featherweight/superwonderful! Or have I missed something?

 

[Ben]

I think that Wh/kg is correct based on a couple of assumptions I made.

Ultracaps still have a fair way to go before they're ready for our needs.

I really want to believe in EEStor, but I'm finding it hard with no real data open for analysis.

 

[paultrafalgar]

You might find this page informative:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEstor

 

[Ben]

I'll believe it when I see it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not EEStor bashing or anything, but it will take a lot more to convince me than some specifications published in patents and permittivity.

Hopefully the interest shown by Lockheed-Martin means they're the real deal.

 

[swbluto]

I don't really take much faith in the fact Lockheed martin signed an exclusivity agreement with military applications. Have they actually paid anything YET for such an agreement? If not, who WOULDN'T sign such an exclusivity agreement in the hopes they'll have monopolistic applicative control in the event the technology comes to fruition? Such a signature signifies high reward and no risk which means nothing.(Of course, if they paid for such an agreement, than that's another thing. But I don't remember such a detail.)

And given the increase in general faith in EESU that Lockheed Martin's agreement gave, EESTOR's benefit from the deal is rather clear.

 

[MitchJi]

And given the increase in general faith in EESU that Lockheed Martin's agreement gave, EESTOR's benefit from the deal is rather clear.

Hi,

How does that help them? If it were a pump and dump stock situation the benefit would be clear.

 

[swbluto]

Well, if a company is given to be more credible, that means more investment money and more public attention, which further increases its publicity. I don't know of a startup-technology business that wouldn't want that.

Of course, the fact the stock hasn't been pumped and dumped yet is reassuring... But, do they have public stock? I've heard EESTOR was a private company meaning investors have to be "professional investors" to buy company equity(assuming they offer it, which I think they do.).

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

It is a privately held company. I think Kleiner and ZENN are the largest investors. I think the Kleiner investment shows that at least they are legitimate. I have a friend who is a principle in a Hedge Fund and has done very well. He said when you do due diligence and meet the principles you can always tell if they are honest and competent.

 

[317537]

http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com/

A good resource centre blog hits the net for everything to do with new emerging technologies along the EEstor patent. Looking good folks, looking very good.

I am a little weary about GM's involvment, however I dont think this tech is going to get buried as it is way too important for all.

 

[317537]

http://theeestory.com/files/EEStorTrademarkInfo.pdf

Here is an idea of what to expect from eestor..

EEStor, Inc.
Preliminary Ceramic Battery Specifications
EESU 24V-BDHDDC Output Voltage: 24VDC +/-0.5%
Output Current: 20A continuous
Output Current Transient: *80A for 2 seconds maximum
Output Current Protection: fast opening fuse
Volume: 9.44 x 10 mm (101.6 mm cubed)
Weight: 2.2 kg
Energy Storage: 26.7 A#hrs
100% Deep Cycle
Usage: 10 to the power of 6 Cycles
Charging Time (0 to 100%): 90 seconds
Operating Temperature Range: -40° C to 49° C• Includes ultra fast charging
Maximum Storage Temperature: 150° C
Certification: UL and European Standard
Estimated Price• Low Volume (5Ok/year): $62.50• High Volume (500k/year): $52.25

* Time can be extended with a slight increase in the OEM price. At the end of the 2 seconds the output current will revert to the 20A level, if maximum power is required. If the unit power is terminated for 4 seconds, and then reapplied, 80A powercan be applied for another two seconds if required.

A 24v 26ah 2kg energy storage unit that can charge in 90 seconds. Whooooahhh Good news for E-bikers, you would need a power/service staion to charge a car in this manner though.

They obviously are going to produce these suckers with voltages compatible in our universe.

 

[paultrafalgar]

If I'm not mistaken, 26 amp hours will take the average ebike about 2 miles? Why the optimism?

 

[swbluto]

If I'm not mistaken, 26 amp hours will take the average ebike about 2 miles? Why the optimism?

I believe you are. The average Wh/mile is about 20-30/mile for current 24 volt bikes, and this thing would have 26*24 Wh or 624 Wh, so this energy storage device could propel an ebike with an average distance of 24.96 miles(@ 25 wh/mi.) for only 2.2 kg or about 4.85 pounds. With ping's lifepo4, the equivalent amount of lithium of 5 pounds would propel one to about 9-10 miles. But I think li-poly might rival this on the basis of energy density and has a much greater ability to supply current. For current e-vehicle needs, this seems like it might only be suitable for lower powered ebikes. But, you could probably extract some higher current with paralleling and such and they may improve on the product's current density in the future.

But, IF this is energy storage comes alive and it meets its specs, it'll be a revolution! One of the greatest barriers to electric vehicles is cost and range. If this can seemingly so substantially reduce the cost, you can get absurd range while still having absurd power. Of course, you could also supplement it with "Booster packs" like a123s and the such if you really need really high currents for more prolonged periods.

 

[tostino]

If I'm not mistaken, 26 amp hours will take the average ebike about 2 miles? Why the optimism?

Umm 26ah at 24 volts is roughly 600wh. That will get you a hell of a lot further than 2 miles (probably over 20 at 20mph).

Looking at that spec sheet though, I am VERY disappointed. 20a discharge? Umm wtf... the point of a cap is to have the ability for insanely high discharges if necessary. Cheap Lifepo4 has better discharge rates than these caps!

I guess if these really only cost $62 than they will be an amazing revolution in EV's, because the energy storage cost will have plummeted, and you will be able to afford enough caps to over come that pitiful 20a discharge.

 

[paultrafalgar]

Whoops! Confused AmpHours with WattHours!
Facial egg!

 

[317537]

Would I throw an egg? Yes! :lol: But if Eestore fail to deliver I'll gladly wear that facial egg. Or even a dozen..



24v (12vx2) lead acid batteries @ 24 ah weighs about 30lbs. lifepo4 24v @ 30 ah weigh in at about 14lbs or less. And this eesu is only 4lbs.

Im thinking a 48v pack is going to weigh about 10lbs. Damn those ultralight racing frames will go fast and far with this powering them along. E-Ultra light aircraft (EULAC) is going to be practicle. And solar charging, wind power and regen will be a smash hit.

There is a lot of hoo haa about this company being a sham however I am seeing enough public and private involvment around this tech and enough hush for me to at least get a little bit excited.

 

[317537]

If I'm not mistaken, 26 amp hours will take the average ebike about 2 miles? Why the optimism?

Umm 26ah at 24 volts is roughly 600wh. That will get you a hell of a lot further than 2 miles (probably over 20 at 20mph).

Looking at that spec sheet though, I am VERY disappointed. 20a discharge? Umm wtf... the point of a cap is to have the ability for insanely high discharges if necessary. Cheap Lifepo4 has better discharge rates than these caps!

I guess if these really only cost $62 than they will be an amazing revolution in EV's, because the energy storage cost will have plummeted, and you will be able to afford enough caps to over come that pitiful 20a discharge.

Yeah 20 amps sucks. You could combine two to get 40 amps. Or switch 3 on and off in turn within the 4 second mark to get 80 amps .

I think that the 20amp limitation is for the small 2 kg pack and is limited by the DC to DC converter they were talking about.

Larger packs will obviously have better ratings and I for one would load at least 20 lbs if I could afford it.

I wouldnt trust those specs anyway. Eestor are only stating these energy storage units will compete with current technology not obliterate it. Lithium and nano tubes are set to change the field posts again, but they dont charge like the caps will.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

I believe you are. The average Wh/mile is about 20-30/mile for current 24 volt bikes, and this thing would have 26*24 Wh or 624 Wh, so this energy storage device could propel an ebike with an average distance of 24.96 miles(@ 25 wh/mi.) for only 2.2 kg or about 4.85 pounds. With ping's lifepo4, the equivalent amount of lithium of 5 pounds would propel one to about 9-10 miles. But I think li-poly might rival this on the basis of energy density and has a much greater ability to supply current. For current e-vehicle needs, this seems like it might only be suitable for lower powered ebikes. But, you could probably extract some higher current with paralleling and such and they may improve on the product's current density in the future.

But, IF this is energy storage comes alive and it meets its specs, it'll be a revolution! One of the greatest barriers to electric vehicles is cost and range. If this can seemingly so substantially reduce the cost, you can get absurd range while still having absurd power. Of course, you could also supplement it with "Booster packs" like a123s and the such if you really need really high currents for more prolonged periods.

For Ebikes A123 and Lipo are more than adequate. For Ebikes the advantages are price (supposed to be about half) and size and weight.

Capacitors can dump all their power (current) in seconds so power with caps isn't an issue. Part of EEstors method to increase capacity is to store at at high voltage (which requires a breakthrough insulator) so high voltage (if desired) with high amps with no voltage drop is the promise. The issue with caps is energy capacity which Eestor claims to have solved (according to their claims much better than lipo). Also life rated in 10's of k's.

 

[317537]

Hi,

Capacitors can dump all their power (current) in seconds so power with caps isn't an issue. Part of EEstors method to increase capacity is to store at at high voltage (which requires a breakthrough insulator) so high voltage (if desired) with high amps with no voltage drop is the promise. The issue with caps is energy capacity which Eestor claims to have solved (according to their claims much better than lipo). Also life rated in 10's of k's.

Yeah it looks as though there is a sweet spot in the higher primary voltage of the actual caps coupled with their ability to dump all their power. If people dont know already these are voltage driven and the voltage is converted into amps by the regulator that keeps it at say 24v.. The actual farad of these ultra caps is similar to low energy ultra caps, at 30 farad. My 2.5v @ 55 farad maxwell caps have more capacity than these. However the eestore patent store 3500v at 30 farad and regulate it to a praticle nominated voltage. There is a big serious sweet spot of energy potential between 3500v and 24v. 30 farads doesnt look such a small figure when you have all thatevolatge to tap from.

For those who dont understand the relationship between capacity and volts. High voltage is like compressing the air within a whole room into a small cube and high capacity is like a big room air possibly under a lower pressure. Its best to have both, however you can get better results with higher voltages as you can contain more energy potential in a smaller areas.

Electricity is lighter than gas and IMO there is or more chance of petrol gas exploding releasing its energy in a short burst than a cap has doing this. The efficiency of ICE is lower than that of electric powered. So in essence, pound for punch, fuel gas has the need to store more energy potential than a battery does due to ICE efficiency issues.

All we need to do in this race is cram as much voltage as possible into the lightest smallest area and reap the rewards.

Even a lead acid battery would be a almost a practicle alternative if you could charge each cell from 2v (discharged) to 10 volts (charged).

Metaphoricaly speaking

You could even run a motor off the pressure stored in a O2 tank,

A smaller high pressure O2 tank would offer more of its contents out than a large lower pressure tank. A large tank holds too much unusable energy at the end of decompression and weighs lots more.

Voltage (pressure) is king, capacity (energy storage area) is only relevant to how hard you try put the energy into the said device.

A big battery with no voltage is usless and a little battery with lots of voltage has more meaning.

 

[paultrafalgar]

Here's a good Hedge idea:
1. Take out a bet with Ladbrooks that EEstor will NOT produce a commercially viable purchasable product by 1st Jan 2010.
2. Invest the same amount of cash that you put in the bet in EEstor shares.
What do you think?
It's called an each-way bet

 

[Link]

But I think li-poly might rival this on the basis of energy density and has a much greater ability to supply current. For current e-vehicle needs, this seems like it might only be suitable for lower powered ebikes.

Beef up the regulator they're using to keep the voltage at a usable level and I suspect it could rival LiPo pretty easily (but not for a comparable price). Plus, there's this:

Estimated Price
Low Volume (50k/year): $62.50
High Volume (500k/year): $52.25

I really hope they're right on this. 640Wh for barely over $60? That's less than SLA.

 

[swbluto]

Here's a good Hedge idea:
1. Take out a bet with Ladbrooks that EEstor will NOT produce a commercially viable purchasable product by 1st Jan 2010.
2. Invest the same amount of cash that you put in the bet in EEstor shares.
What do you think?
It's called an each-way bet

I like the idea of "each way" bets as it helps to ensure an expected gain greater than 0%. If you know something is going to take off by more than 100% among a set of "almost" mutual exclusivities, but not sure which, you could invest equally and ensure at least some gain. Depending on the "More than x percent" factor, you could adjust your investment proportions to ensure that you don't lose money but also maximize your likely gain. But, if the gain is not greater than 100%, then it seems there's no way to ensure no loss. I believe this basic idea is called "Hedging your bets".

I believe it's the basic idea among investment groups with holdings in oil companies that invest in electric technology. Some might say "Hey, the oil companies are trying to suppress the electric vehicle industry!", but it's really an insurance that their losses will be minimized in any case where electric vehicles/"whatever alternative technologies" take off or oil just simply keeps rising in the long term(Or both.). Both of those things not happening, for example, seems extremely unlikely.