Ultra Caps?

[317537]

Here's a good Hedge idea:
1. Take out a bet with Ladbrooks that EEstor will NOT produce a commercially viable purchasable product by 1st Jan 2010.
2. Invest the same amount of cash that you put in the bet in EEstor shares.
What do you think?
It's called an each-way bet

Nope. I don’t gamble and don’t invest.


I’ve read some data on this and they explain the ways around the limitations sincerely IMO. Although I would need to research a lot more before I say "quote me on this"

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Pars ... /7,466,536

An electrical-energy-storage unit (EESU) has as a basis material a high-permittivity composition-modified barium titanate ceramic powder. This powder is single coated with aluminum oxide and then immersed in a matrix of poly(ethylene terephthalate) (PET) plastic for use in screen-printing systems. The ink that is used to process the powders via screen-printing is based on a nitrocellulose resin that provide a binder burnout, sintering, and hot isostatic pressing temperatures that are allowed by the PET plastic. These lower temperatures that are in the range of 40.degree. C. to 150.degree. C. also allows aluminum powder to be used for the electrode material. The components of the EESU are manufactured with the use of conventional ceramic and plastic fabrication techniques which include screen printing alternating multilayers of aluminum electrodes and high-permittivity composition-modified barium titanate powder, sintering to a closed-pore porous body, followed by hot-isostatic pressing to a void-free body. The 31,351 components are configured into a multilayer array with the use of a solder-bump technique as the enabling technology so as to provide a parallel configuration of components that has the capability to store at least 52.22 kWh of electrical energy. The total weight of an EESU with this amount of electrical energy storage is 281.56 pounds including the box, connectors, and associated hardware.

This EESU capacitor is missing the middle man of chemical battery application with al203 being the dielectric separator, If I understand this correctly.

Ahhh Aluminium! Aluminium is the holy grail IMO.

Off topic

Aluminium has more energy per pound than gasoline and you can burn it to recycle the electrolysis power that was used to smelt it.

You can make a good battery out of air, aluminium foil, blotting paper, salt water and carbon. "Al-Air batteries" have one of the highest energy densities of all batteries believe it or not.

I did some experimentation early last year with aluminium foil (anode), an Australian 50c piece I electroplated with the alloy they use in an AU $1 coin (cathode). I used a nylon scourer spounge and split it thiner to use as a plate separator, and kitchen electrolytes.

I didn’t journal the data but I found that the cell could recharge. I had a lot of leakage due to poor construction, wet electrodes, and gots lot of oxide build up every time I would discharge the cell. Recharging seem to re-expose the AL anode to the aqueous electrolyte and the oxide would get stuck in the plate divider material and the upon next discharge cycle reform new layers of oxides, causing an ever increasing insulation barrier between dielectric fields and making a complete mess of the battery in the process.. EG gel sludge crap formed from al oxide, , impurities, water based electrolyte and ionic activity.

I charged this home made cell up to 12v and watched the voltage drop real fast. I forget the voltage decline and I should of marked it on a chart. But from what I remember the voltage drop slowed under 5 volts. There be potential at voltages definitely as high or higher as/than nimh and possibly up to Lifepo4 cells. It all depends of the anode cathode protection and electrolyte base. High H2O base electrolytes seem to evaporate and evolve into H and O2 too readily at higher voltages and give aluminium a fresh supply of O2.

I pulled the cell apart and my copper alloy electroplated nickel coin was seriously damaged deep into the surface due to the 12v initial charge I used to test the immediate voltage decline. The aluminium anode showed no serious scortching or ill effects other than the excessive oxidisation caused by the discharge.


Lead acid has a higher cell voltage than nimh and is awesome for a water based secondary battery. Get rid of all that water it has more potential than current designs.

I believe if lead was researched extensively, I see an advanced lead alloy powder or nano thing beating the pants off nimh chemistry.

Back on Topic!

One of the key word in the EESU patent I see is VOID FREE” I’d like to try replicating this one technique or finding something similar that will work.

I came to conclusion that aluminium oxide could be used more as the insulator with strong ionic bonds between the molecules AL2 and O3. AL is very good at oxidizing and hard to deoxidise and pure al2O3 is indeed stable at high temperatures and does not readily absorb heat.


AlO3 ion battery idea.

I think with my next battery experimentation I'm going to try, constructing a high surface area aluminium anode, Use a transient layer of al oxide that can be charged from and discharged to the surfaces of both cathode and anode. Use a proper commercial electrolyte that’s stable with Al, contains no water or molecules that will not cause further oxidation of the cathode or anode plates. Find a good dissimilar alloy cathode material possibly galvanised Al (Id have to look at polarization properties) and anodize or electroplate it. Now comes the hard part, find a carrier insulator or method that allows for the short movement (fast charge) of the oxide material from the plate to plate and sandwich this shit together and charge it to the max voltage before it burns.

I don’t think I will win an award but I will have lots of fun

Disclaimer

Don’t do this at home kiddies, but!

If you wana play chemist do a lot of research on the dangers of your chosen materials. Do not use large amounts of anything when trying new ideas as you can get good results from the smallest amounts of materials while limiting the dangers.

Don’t try to build a 3500 volt cap and charge it, you may be burnt. Stick with single cell low voltage chemical batteries.

Usually the best materials are the most dangerous to experiment with.

 

[swbluto]

But I think li-poly might rival this on the basis of energy density and has a much greater ability to supply current. For current e-vehicle needs, this seems like it might only be suitable for lower powered ebikes.

Beef up the regulator they're using to keep the voltage at a usable level and I suspect it could rival LiPo pretty easily (but not for a comparable price). Plus, there's this:

The only "real specifications" have been 20 continuous and 80 amps burst for a 5 lb container. Considering 5 pounds of lipos can continuously sustain upto 100 or more amps, I think for the "low weight" segment of the market, lipos have the advantage. But if someone doesn't mind strapping on 20 pounds of weight, you could get upwards of 80 amps or so continuously. And, iyou're a motorcycle, who cares about weight? :lol: It doesn't take much to reach the desired 300 continuous amps.

Estimated Price
Low Volume (50k/year): $62.50
High Volume (500k/year): $52.25

I really hope they're right on this. 640Wh for barely over $60? That's less than SLA.

[/quote]

Ditto. But, I'd be cautious in assuming that's the private cost as opposed to the manufacturer's cost. It seems monopolized resources have a way of multiplying their private cost upto the proportionate price level to the nearest comparable product. But, in 10 or 20 years, these things might become ubiquitous and cheap assuming they're developed.

 

[317537]

No I think that $60 ball park figure is not retail price its production cost. Add from 7 to 10 times that amount onto that once insurances, taxes, profits, transport costs, retail markup and advertising are considered.

Id say this 24v unit might retail to begin with at about $600+ bucks, but the EESU will love you a long time.

Edit:
Some guy is building easy diy 1v 150f capacitors from activated carbon here.>>> http://www.ultracapacitors.org/forum/6806.html

 

[Link]

Ditto. But, I'd be cautious in assuming that's the private cost as opposed to the manufacturer's cost.

Given that they list high- and low-volume prices, I figured that's what it was.

Regardless, even at 10x that price, that's still a good deal. Considering it _should_ outperform almost other battery in pretty much everything except power density.

 

[317537]

Indeed very good value.

Energy density or power capacity?

Energy density is related the maximum voltage a metal can carry, store along the surface. Voltage does not travel within a wire core instead travels on the outside surface of a the materials, how much surface area includes how much capacity the material will contain. Aluminium as stated has one of the best energy density of all materials.

I'll take a guess from my head without Google

Because aluminium is so light in weight its crystallisation is sparse allowing much more electrical pressure without resistance. With voltage pressure, resistance does cause the electricity to leap from the material and arc back damaging any wire or electrode in the process. With Caps they use aluminium for electrodes i think for this very reason. Aluminium away from an O2 environment must have an insane low resistances and this is why we see such high voltages with low heat in caps.

The big advance is how to store very high voltages with large capacities in small areas without the medium between fracturing and the electrolyte boiling spewing its guts out, or the thing exploding, thus not allowing the electrodes to short circuit.

Now I had to Google.

http://205.243.100.155/frames/Shrinking_History.htm

Some capacitors can allow 12,000 volts to pass. The energy density is astounding. you will never get a chemical battery store this type of energy.

I was able to locate a batch of reasonably priced (and VERY robust) Maxwell 70 uF 12,000 volt energy discharge capacitors. Each capacitor is rated at 100,000 Amperes/shot for 300,000 shots(!). I'm now redesigning the system so that it can deliver up to 24,000 Joules, or about 17,800 foot-pounds of energy per shot. This is about the same energy as dropping a one ton weight from a height of 9 feet!

Power capacity is all down to size. There must be a theoretical limit based upon size and area alone of any comparable cell or cap. A big battery will always carry more capacity.

Ouch this guys is crazy....

To tired to investigate more.

 

[swbluto]

I was able to locate a batch of reasonably priced (and VERY robust) Maxwell 70 uF 12,000 volt energy discharge capacitors. Each capacitor is rated at 100,000 Amperes/shot for 300,000 shots(!). I'm now redesigning the system so that it can deliver up to 24,000 Joules, or about 17,800 foot-pounds of energy per shot. This is about the same energy as dropping a one ton weight from a height of 9 feet!

Power capacity is all down to size. There must be a theoretical limit based upon size and area alone of any comparable cell or cap. A big battery will always carry more capacity.

Ouch this guys is crazy....

To tired to investigate more.

E = .5*.00006*(12,000)^2 = 4320 J ~ 1.2 Wh.

Lol. I wonder what the price is, though. At three dollars a piece, it might be worth it - now I just need 2000 of them.

 

[Link]

Energy density or power capacity?

Power density, as in W/kg and/or W/l. And, ATM, that's really only because it's limited by the regulator on it. The raw capacitor is capable of way more than any kind of battery (except maybe one of those ridiculous 100C continuous/250C burst Saft li-ions).

In any case, anybody get anything more definite on when I can buy one?