Chalo
100 TW
Interesting. US owners often report mpg 20% better than EPA estimates.
VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'
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speedmd
10 MW
These are econo boxes and many of the folks driving them are taking them out in hyper mile fashion so it is not too difficult to beat the estimates when doing so. Just like getting better millage when pedaling the throttle vs using the cruse control allows you to light pedal it a bit more.
Problem in many countries is the CO2- fuel tax- credits that are at risk and many politicians are out for blood / payback as they look like fools for being taken in with the scam. VW has already stated they will pay back for fuel.
Problem in many countries is the CO2- fuel tax- credits that are at risk and many politicians are out for blood / payback as they look like fools for being taken in with the scam. VW has already stated they will pay back for fuel.
That's exactly it: all cars are tested for fuel consumption/CO2 emissions in a standardised test that attempts to replicate real world use (it's a cycle of varied driving, including some idling). It's usually possible to achieve better fuel consumption than the "official" figure during constant speed highway driving. However, the test exists as a standard on which the real world consumption of different cars can be compared (if car A is 20% better on the test than car B, then chances are car A will be more economical in most real-world driving than car B). The CO2 emissions measured in the test is also used to set the taxation band the car falls into, which is supposed to encourage adoption of economical cars. So, cheating the test could also constitute tax fraud.
speedmd
10 MW
Six cylinder cars effected also. http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-volkswagen-fix-20151120-story.html
Hillhater
100 TW
Do you have a link to that statement ?speedmd said:
liveforphysics
100 TW
speedmd said:
Stinky ship sinking fast. Looking forward to more joining.
Automakers that don't immediately dump all available resources into EV development now will be the car brands some people will remember for a while.
Ykick
1 GW
speedmd said:
Particularly ironic to me how a Toyota commercial popped-up when I clicked the link...
As someone who regularly rides (and chokes) among a dense concentration of "poison sprayers" I would hope leadership within the VW organization receives serious jail time.
Chalo
100 TW
Everyone in upper management of any company selling exhaust-spewing cars should be locked up, and have motor exhaust ducted through their cells.
I still see no reason that VW is the slightest bit worse than the rest of them.
I still see no reason that VW is the slightest bit worse than the rest of them.
speedmd
10 MW
Hillhater said:
It is going back a few weeks now and can not find much in the 1000's of news reports where one of VW front men stated they would make good on that point. Most of their positions have evolved and have changed now that some of the dust has settled a bit. Stall tactic looks to have calmed the call for heads for now. In a Recent head line, VW is stating they will do pretty much nothing for euro customers. Does not look good. Sort of sounds like a Call from the bridge. " EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF" !
http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-wont-compensate-european-diesel-owners-after-1743945599
As much as I'd like to believe this could be the beginning of hte end for gas vehicles, I think the whole thing will just blow over for the industry as a whole, after some time, people will forget, the relative few that really cared will continue after it for a while, but relatively nothing will come of it, beyond possibly serious reorganization/buyout/doom for VW itself--and possibly not even that.
The only faith I have in people is that they'd rather things stay the same, even if they are bad, than get better, if it means they have to actually do something about it themselves. :/
The only faith I have in people is that they'd rather things stay the same, even if they are bad, than get better, if it means they have to actually do something about it themselves. :/
speedmd
10 MW
The diesel cars are dead in the US for certain. I don't see any surviving this for long. The stench will linger for generations unfortunately unless the government grows a set and forces them to buy back any and all cheating this way. I don't see that happening soon.
I dunno about that.
There's a coworker's friend that is looking at new cars, and wants a VW diesel, even after I passed the info (thru the coworker) of the basic issues discussed in this thread, he still wants one, because he doesn't believe any of it and thinks it is all a government conspiracy to keep foreign cars out of the USA.
I haven't discussed it with anyone else much yet, other than people that don't like cars much anyway.
There's a coworker's friend that is looking at new cars, and wants a VW diesel, even after I passed the info (thru the coworker) of the basic issues discussed in this thread, he still wants one, because he doesn't believe any of it and thinks it is all a government conspiracy to keep foreign cars out of the USA.
I haven't discussed it with anyone else much yet, other than people that don't like cars much anyway.
speedmd
10 MW
He most likely will need to buy a used one soon or make his own. :lol: They have shut down production and will not survive this long with the current designs. Slim to no chance they will get a wavier going forward on new models. Does not look like most can meet the spec without some cheating or extreme performance changes. Neither side has released details on the proposed fix in last weeks meeting with CARB. Looks like some buy back is inevitable.
Sunder
10 MW
speedmd said:
You know why we need regulation though? It's because a huge number of people don't care about the environment. You don't breathe in your own exhaust, so it doesn't matter how dirty your own car is.
What I've learned is that transport is an inelastic good. We hit $1.70 a litre here for a short time. Number of cars on the road didn't drop a bit. I know people getting >20L to the 100km, and blowing out black smoke on IDLE. I pointed it out to them, and they said they did the maths, and it wasn't worth fixing. He'd run the car to the ground and then sell it for scrap. In the mean time, his fuel bill is only a few bucks a week higher than if he fixed it. (I think it was a leaky injector causing over-rich conditions)
I reckon unless governments fine VW into oblivion, everything is going to go on as normal. Consumers are not going to punish VWs or diesels at all.
speedmd
10 MW
We saw this with smokers lighting up in bars and restaurants all the time. Their addiction so strong that they could care less about society around them. I see this still outside sporting venues today with the addicts toking away a few feet from the entrance now that they are forbidden to pollute the rest of us and even slight amounts of the smoke stinking to high heaven when passing by. They all look so dam unhealthy and pathetic. Stinker cars will be the same shortly. The grown ups will not allow them to be sold for public use in large numbers. Greenies have already started to sticker stink pots with nasty notes and folks have lost friends over their reluctance to get rid of the dirty running cars. Only a matter of time before they find them vandalized regularly. We have tipped over and there is no turning back now. VW will eat this one, one way or another.
As long as we don't end up with pretentious hypocrites who are sufficiently affluent to own a shiny new, premium-priced EV pretend coughing and hacking because an ICE car drifted by 30 feet away. Just as some do because someone dared light a cigarette outdoors. Those same people who will happily stand over a BBQ all afternoon and inhale similar levels of chemicals as if they smoked ~20 cigarettes.
There's certainly no high horse available to the U.S. automotive industry in this. The VAG group may well have fiddled the NOx emissions tests but the cars are still comparatively economical.
There's certainly no high horse available to the U.S. automotive industry in this. The VAG group may well have fiddled the NOx emissions tests but the cars are still comparatively economical.
speedmd
10 MW
I hear you. But that char broiled steak and veggie burgers smells soo much better. 
Nothing like baked beans over a camp fire. The smell continues for hours and hours. Food addiction talking! :lol:
Nothing like baked beans over a camp fire. The smell continues for hours and hours. Food addiction talking! :lol:
The fingers
10 TW
Maybe they could offer to run them on only Bio-Diesel, spreading the smell of French fries across the land. :|
liveforphysics
100 TW
amberwolf said:
Rest assured my friend, all non-sustainable practices stop. Out little blue marble spaceship has a very thin outer layer of atmosphere we all share. It's a closed system with no spare atmosphere standing-by for replacement.
Humans are free to continue poisoning this single closed system until it no longer supports life. Then the continued mass poisoning stops. Alternative, a perspective shift could happen where folks respect the criticality of having non-poisoned air to breathe, and potentially not cause a mass life extinction.
It's interesting, if you gathered up most any group of folks from anywhere in the world, and load everyone into a submarine and go to the bottom of the ocean together, folks can see the walls holding the air they are sharing. If you fired up a diesel genset in that submarine with everyone, they would likely try anything possible including killing you to try to get the engine poisoning the air supply in that enclosed space shut off ASAP. People would call you a psychopath for even starting the engine in that closed system. If you zoom out to the scale of the earth orbiting the sun, and gravity is the wall of the submarine shell holding are incredibly thin little 8-mile thick air supply, for some reason folks seem not to be bothered by any scale of atrocity in air supply poisoning.
Human perspective will either grow to include viewing the whole system, or rapidly meet mass self-inflicted species extinction. There are no other options, both paths lead to the non-sustainable practices rapidly concluding.
Chalo
100 TW
speedmd said:
I always saw restrictions on tobacco smoking made by people who drove cars as what they are: bullshit foisted on us by the true offenders. Sort of like cops who'll take you to jail for possessing a switchblade, but don't hesitate to shoot someone 15 times for making them anxious.
nutnspecial
10 MW
A submarine and generator vs earth. Mmkay. I'm thinking not only the math is way off here, but the earth is natural, and will naturally cleanse pollution/ meddling, whether it's flat and stationary, or a globe hurdling thru space. Any idea of the massive scale of atmosphere, vegitation and precipitation on earth vs it's citizenary polluting inhabitants? I am thinking the submarine is way overdramatic, but no offense.
Imo death and destruction from war-ish behaviour (give me a break, with our technology, we can't at least capture and try accused offenders, and quell uprisings rather than fuel them with weapons and training?), and major scale corporate and black budget gov should be the very first to be called out on pollution/destruction of our environment.
Seems ridiculous to only strongly attack a symptom- the large consumer use of sequestered fuel.
Nevertheless, it appears earth may naturally undergo self cleansing, and naturally one would logically think eventually a massive meteor or outbreak may hit, or the sun will burn out, so even without burning gasoline or even wood (not so sure wood is not better than any mining and refining necessary for anything "e"), or having such a fuctup law and money structure, we could all still meet our ends at once. And what would it matter? Each will meet his end anyway, and if they are of clean conscience, that's the best way to live and die.
Imo death and destruction from war-ish behaviour (give me a break, with our technology, we can't at least capture and try accused offenders, and quell uprisings rather than fuel them with weapons and training?), and major scale corporate and black budget gov should be the very first to be called out on pollution/destruction of our environment.
Seems ridiculous to only strongly attack a symptom- the large consumer use of sequestered fuel.
Nevertheless, it appears earth may naturally undergo self cleansing, and naturally one would logically think eventually a massive meteor or outbreak may hit, or the sun will burn out, so even without burning gasoline or even wood (not so sure wood is not better than any mining and refining necessary for anything "e"), or having such a fuctup law and money structure, we could all still meet our ends at once. And what would it matter? Each will meet his end anyway, and if they are of clean conscience, that's the best way to live and die.
liveforphysics
100 TW
nutspecial said:
The humans lung surface, skin surface, eye/mouth/nasal surfaces in the submarine, as well as the walls and all surfaces of the submarine also collect particulates cleaning the air.
In either example, it's a closed system with toxin's being added. In any closed system, add enough toxins and the life in that closed system concludes. It doesn't matter that the closed system has some mechanisms for dealing with toxins, your own lungs are a prime example of a natural mechanism that is filtering out toxins, it works fine until you've had your LD.
This quote by Neil deGrasse Tyson is pretty good for getting perspective on how tiny this closed system happens to be:
"There are more molecules of water in a cup of water than cups of water in all the world's oceans. This means that some molecules in every cup of water you drink passed through the kidneys of Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Abe Lincoln or any other historical person of your choosing. Same goes for air: There are more molecules of air in a single breath of air than there are breaths of air in Earth's entire atmosphere. Therefore, some molecules of air you inhale passed through the lungs of Billy the Kid, Joan of Arc, Beethoven, Socrates or any other historical person of your choosing."
Hillhater
100 TW
VW have announced a "30 min" fix for the problems !....
http://www.smh.com.au/business/volkswagen-offers-30-minute-fix-for-car-emissions-issue--but-performance-may-suffer-20151126-gl8fhl.html
Basically a software change and possibly a small hardware ( mesh screen) mod for the air sensor.
http://www.smh.com.au/business/volkswagen-offers-30-minute-fix-for-car-emissions-issue--but-performance-may-suffer-20151126-gl8fhl.html
Basically a software change and possibly a small hardware ( mesh screen) mod for the air sensor.
speedmd
10 MW
Hillhater said:
Trust us... really, it will be all fixed up. :lol: After the many lies that have come from them in just the past few weeks, I would not believe a thing they are saying. I am firmly from the show me state regarding them at this point.
Hillhater
100 TW
VW have a LOT riding on this solution.
I don't see them doing anything.....or being allowed to do anything.....without some very convincing testing and approval of the relavent authorities, before rolling out a solution.
I cannot believe it will be as simple as a software mod , or a minor mod to the flow sensor ducting.
If so, why the f@!k didn't they figure that out before all this mess started ?
I don't see them doing anything.....or being allowed to do anything.....without some very convincing testing and approval of the relavent authorities, before rolling out a solution.
I cannot believe it will be as simple as a software mod , or a minor mod to the flow sensor ducting.
If so, why the f@!k didn't they figure that out before all this mess started ?
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