Alan B
100 GW
Lipo and Lico have the same risks.
Would you trade your home built bike for an optibike?
- Thread starter Green Machine
- Start date
mdd0127
100 kW
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2008
- Messages
- 1,084
I am definitely dumber from reading this thread.
Is the price justified for the parts that are on it, the build quality, and where it was built? Yes.
Is it right that they have to be so expensive for the company to be able to profit from them? No, people that like to buy disposable garbage, people that don't want to work for a living and people that don't like to take responsibility for their own actions have pretty much ruined it for everyone else. It costs ignorant amounts of money to produce products for ignorant customers.
Is it a good deal for what it does? I personally don't think so. If it wasn't noisy and had five times the power, and twice the durability to handle the extra power, it would be a great deal.
extremegreen,
All of your talk about liability and BS seriously makes me want to puke. Do you leave your home without consulting your liability advisor? You even said earlier in this thread that YOU sold batteries to people that figured out how to burn their houses down with them. By your own logic, why are you posting here instead of working to pay restitution??? People that think like you ARE the reason the Opti has a weak motor and costs $10K. If folks would take some responsibility for their own damn actions, America could produce products again. I could seriously shake the sht out of you over some of your comments( not that I would :wink: ) and it's just an internet forum. I guess being reminded that there are people out there with your mindset also reminds me of the fact that there are 5.5 billion too many people in the world that we're not allowed to do anything about, and it freaks me out. I bet you work for an insurance company. How many people that are burned by gasoline fires sue car manufacturers for selling them a product that uses a potentially dangerous fuel? How many knife manufacturers are sued because people cut themselves? What about unicycles? They're hard to ride. A customer could fall off and hit their head! Better get a massive insurance policy to pay to keep another idiot with no balance alive and consuming......
Oh, I wasn't going to say anything at all....you know...if you don't have anything nice to say and what not....YOUR VIDEO WAS LAME! That is NOT a steep hill. The trail as is smooth as can be and can't be more than a 5% grade. I have two bum knees and could beat you guys up that hill with NO motor. That looks like the forest road I pedal up for a few miles to get to the trail..... If you like Optibikes, you should take it down because it makes them look bad.
All of this discussion about the Opti is a little pointless. It's 1995 tech and they're going to have to either release a whole new product or get put out of business within the next year. Some cool stuff is coming out from people that aren't scared of stupid wattage limits, lipo batteries, or trumped up liability BS!
Is the price justified for the parts that are on it, the build quality, and where it was built? Yes.
Is it right that they have to be so expensive for the company to be able to profit from them? No, people that like to buy disposable garbage, people that don't want to work for a living and people that don't like to take responsibility for their own actions have pretty much ruined it for everyone else. It costs ignorant amounts of money to produce products for ignorant customers.
Is it a good deal for what it does? I personally don't think so. If it wasn't noisy and had five times the power, and twice the durability to handle the extra power, it would be a great deal.
extremegreen,
All of your talk about liability and BS seriously makes me want to puke. Do you leave your home without consulting your liability advisor? You even said earlier in this thread that YOU sold batteries to people that figured out how to burn their houses down with them. By your own logic, why are you posting here instead of working to pay restitution??? People that think like you ARE the reason the Opti has a weak motor and costs $10K. If folks would take some responsibility for their own damn actions, America could produce products again. I could seriously shake the sht out of you over some of your comments( not that I would :wink: ) and it's just an internet forum. I guess being reminded that there are people out there with your mindset also reminds me of the fact that there are 5.5 billion too many people in the world that we're not allowed to do anything about, and it freaks me out. I bet you work for an insurance company. How many people that are burned by gasoline fires sue car manufacturers for selling them a product that uses a potentially dangerous fuel? How many knife manufacturers are sued because people cut themselves? What about unicycles? They're hard to ride. A customer could fall off and hit their head! Better get a massive insurance policy to pay to keep another idiot with no balance alive and consuming......
Oh, I wasn't going to say anything at all....you know...if you don't have anything nice to say and what not....YOUR VIDEO WAS LAME! That is NOT a steep hill. The trail as is smooth as can be and can't be more than a 5% grade. I have two bum knees and could beat you guys up that hill with NO motor. That looks like the forest road I pedal up for a few miles to get to the trail..... If you like Optibikes, you should take it down because it makes them look bad.
All of this discussion about the Opti is a little pointless. It's 1995 tech and they're going to have to either release a whole new product or get put out of business within the next year. Some cool stuff is coming out from people that aren't scared of stupid wattage limits, lipo batteries, or trumped up liability BS!
Green Machine
100 kW
When releasing a commercial bike with lipo batteries you gotta be really careful and unfortunately i am talking from experience.
Remember Lee Iacocca's ebike? There was a guy in LA with big money, a huge factory, and a big business who specialized in lithium battery technologies (esp for cellphones) and he converted those ebikes to lico's. Back then the only lithium batteries that were big enough for ebikes were licos and back then they were just soldered together small cells.. It is the most dense and most powerful chemistryand also the most dangerous...i think still is.
I had one of the hottest electric vehicle stores in the country at the time. He sold us 20 of those lithium powered bikes, of hundreds he had produced. I saw his factory and he had hundreds of these amazing lithium powered ebikes all in a line...this was 2002 and it was beautiful. We were the first to unleash them to the public. They were absolutly awesome...25 mile range, lightweight...what we had been waiting for.
Because of that product multiple houses burned down, and one was our customer. I am not exactly sure how many houses were lost or damaged, but i know 2 for sure.
Also my first store in fisherman's wharf burned down in a lithium fire. How? One of our sales guys plugged in a lithium powered diggler to the wrong charger before he left that night. The next morning our store and 2 adjacent stores burned down. That diggler was boutique build from a local builder. I really had to protect the builder cuz he was my buddy. But the fire investigators were asking lots of sticky questions to a point to where i needed to get an attorney. I had 3 more stores...2 on market street in san francisco. So out of 4 stores i lost one to a lipo fire...not so bad you think? The boutique builder just used a standard lead acid charger hook up...an idea we later decided was bad. Its good for a lithium product to have a proprietary charge hook up we found out especially if offering to public.
I remember before the house fires the guy who had converted the lithium powered ebikes was calling us offering us more money than what we paid to buy them back. He also wanted contact information to every bike we sold. We didnt want to give him back the bikes we still had, because we loved them. We didnt know that the guy was having fire problems... he didnt tell us. He knew he was going to lose his ass to liability claims. One week later, sure enough we got news of a fire that burned down our customer garage in pacific heights and nearly took down the house. An entire family was upstairs asleep. If i would have built the bike that started the house fire to my customer i would have lost my ass, or if anyone was injured or killed they probably would have gotten me too...but lucky i was able to just divert the fire victim to the guy who provided us the lithium bikes...who was already in shit tons of trouble for modifying a perfectly safe product. I am not sure what happened to him...but for sure his company went bankrupt because of these ebike fires. I dont know how many fires there was i know there was atleast 2 that i for sure know of...but the rumour was there were more. And then there was my first store in fishermans wharf which is another casualty. I think there have been many many fires thanks to frankenstien builds....not all get reported as such.
At that point i decided lithium was not ready for pubic consumption in small ev's and decided to give up on finding a lithium powered product. The only reason it is safe now is because of safer chemistries and more knowledge etc.
We tend to be knowledgeable end users here on the sphere....but i would be very very careful selling to the pubic.
If you dont value my opinion...start a website and start selling strapped together rc packs with no bms's big enough for an ebike to the general public and let us know how it turns out. There is a huge market for people with lead acid vehicles with dead batteries that need small lithium packs. Just point me out to one website that offers such packs because i would like to buy one if they are commercially available.
One more point....there is a reason that almost all commercially available lithium bikes and scooters are powered by lifepo4. Its very hard to find one powered by lipo. Why did goped decide to go with lifepo4 if lipo and lico are so great?
Try finding a china supplier of big ebike powered lipo packs..even china is sketched out about selling them you will find out. They sell hundreds of thousands of lithium bikes to there people, and you have to look very hard to find a company offering a complete bike made with lipo of the thousands offered. How much you want to bet they lost a few huts in china to lipo fires?
Lipo is fine for us on the sphere...but i am talking from experience when i say that they tend to be dangerous when selling to the general public. And product liability is no joke if your selling for a profit. You are absolutley lying to yourself if you think experimenting with RC lico and lipo on ebikes is nothing more than experimenting. We are hobbyists and are playing with fire so to speak. ITs completely different to make a business off of experimental technology without taking huge safeguards...those safeguards are expensive ie...metal lithium frame enclosure like on the opti. safe and sane chargers...etc.
And given the above experiences...you could see why i would say its wreckless and dangerous to sale strapped together rc packs with no bms and a big charger to anyone for a profit. I think i am offering sound advice there. And i bet my guess is right on the money...one fire per 100 packs sold. So its not so bad....only one in 100 customers will have a fire problem....knock yourself out. Its getting much better...in 2002 i think the number was like 1 in 10 and lipo technology hasnt changed that much
...just manufacturers are being more careful...and if you decide to become even a small manufacturer you should be careful if you want to stay in business.
Remember Lee Iacocca's ebike? There was a guy in LA with big money, a huge factory, and a big business who specialized in lithium battery technologies (esp for cellphones) and he converted those ebikes to lico's. Back then the only lithium batteries that were big enough for ebikes were licos and back then they were just soldered together small cells.. It is the most dense and most powerful chemistryand also the most dangerous...i think still is.
I had one of the hottest electric vehicle stores in the country at the time. He sold us 20 of those lithium powered bikes, of hundreds he had produced. I saw his factory and he had hundreds of these amazing lithium powered ebikes all in a line...this was 2002 and it was beautiful. We were the first to unleash them to the public. They were absolutly awesome...25 mile range, lightweight...what we had been waiting for.
Because of that product multiple houses burned down, and one was our customer. I am not exactly sure how many houses were lost or damaged, but i know 2 for sure.
Also my first store in fisherman's wharf burned down in a lithium fire. How? One of our sales guys plugged in a lithium powered diggler to the wrong charger before he left that night. The next morning our store and 2 adjacent stores burned down. That diggler was boutique build from a local builder. I really had to protect the builder cuz he was my buddy. But the fire investigators were asking lots of sticky questions to a point to where i needed to get an attorney. I had 3 more stores...2 on market street in san francisco. So out of 4 stores i lost one to a lipo fire...not so bad you think? The boutique builder just used a standard lead acid charger hook up...an idea we later decided was bad. Its good for a lithium product to have a proprietary charge hook up we found out especially if offering to public.
I remember before the house fires the guy who had converted the lithium powered ebikes was calling us offering us more money than what we paid to buy them back. He also wanted contact information to every bike we sold. We didnt want to give him back the bikes we still had, because we loved them. We didnt know that the guy was having fire problems... he didnt tell us. He knew he was going to lose his ass to liability claims. One week later, sure enough we got news of a fire that burned down our customer garage in pacific heights and nearly took down the house. An entire family was upstairs asleep. If i would have built the bike that started the house fire to my customer i would have lost my ass, or if anyone was injured or killed they probably would have gotten me too...but lucky i was able to just divert the fire victim to the guy who provided us the lithium bikes...who was already in shit tons of trouble for modifying a perfectly safe product. I am not sure what happened to him...but for sure his company went bankrupt because of these ebike fires. I dont know how many fires there was i know there was atleast 2 that i for sure know of...but the rumour was there were more. And then there was my first store in fishermans wharf which is another casualty. I think there have been many many fires thanks to frankenstien builds....not all get reported as such.
At that point i decided lithium was not ready for pubic consumption in small ev's and decided to give up on finding a lithium powered product. The only reason it is safe now is because of safer chemistries and more knowledge etc.
We tend to be knowledgeable end users here on the sphere....but i would be very very careful selling to the pubic.
If you dont value my opinion...start a website and start selling strapped together rc packs with no bms's big enough for an ebike to the general public and let us know how it turns out. There is a huge market for people with lead acid vehicles with dead batteries that need small lithium packs. Just point me out to one website that offers such packs because i would like to buy one if they are commercially available.
One more point....there is a reason that almost all commercially available lithium bikes and scooters are powered by lifepo4. Its very hard to find one powered by lipo. Why did goped decide to go with lifepo4 if lipo and lico are so great?
Try finding a china supplier of big ebike powered lipo packs..even china is sketched out about selling them you will find out. They sell hundreds of thousands of lithium bikes to there people, and you have to look very hard to find a company offering a complete bike made with lipo of the thousands offered. How much you want to bet they lost a few huts in china to lipo fires?
Lipo is fine for us on the sphere...but i am talking from experience when i say that they tend to be dangerous when selling to the general public. And product liability is no joke if your selling for a profit. You are absolutley lying to yourself if you think experimenting with RC lico and lipo on ebikes is nothing more than experimenting. We are hobbyists and are playing with fire so to speak. ITs completely different to make a business off of experimental technology without taking huge safeguards...those safeguards are expensive ie...metal lithium frame enclosure like on the opti. safe and sane chargers...etc.
And given the above experiences...you could see why i would say its wreckless and dangerous to sale strapped together rc packs with no bms and a big charger to anyone for a profit. I think i am offering sound advice there. And i bet my guess is right on the money...one fire per 100 packs sold. So its not so bad....only one in 100 customers will have a fire problem....knock yourself out. Its getting much better...in 2002 i think the number was like 1 in 10 and lipo technology hasnt changed that much
...just manufacturers are being more careful...and if you decide to become even a small manufacturer you should be careful if you want to stay in business.
TylerDurden
100 GW
Wise words. Thanks for the background.
Let's say 20 thousand fires... that would be .1% of annual sales. But, I bet it was tenfold.extremegreenmachine said:
Green Machine
100 kW
Let me show you an example of company offering lipo carefully.
The link i showed you before..this is a very safe battery (i have 4 of them) with bms and large stable cells. Nowhere near the dangerous chemistry of a rc lipo or lico pack:
http://www.batteryspace.com/highpowerpolymerli-ionbattery518v10ah518wh40adrainrate.aspx
By the way before anyone slams me for being so stupid to pay 800 for a lipo battery...i got mine direct from china in bulk. Later they stopped selling to me because they were afraid of liability...a chinese company afraid of liablility selling a lipo pack to america...strange. Ever wonder why china based hobby city doesnt just offer ebike packs? Smart cookies those guys in china.
At the bottem of the page the add reads:
"Please note this battery is for R&D use only and NOT for individual customer. Read safety warning here (link) "
Here is there safety link http://www.batteryspace.com/warningsforusingbatteries.aspx
and if you want to buy this battery you have to call them and assure them your not using it on an electric bike that is going to be charged in the house, and have to sign a paper that says so and release all liability. You cant just put that battery in your shopping cart you got to call them and tell them what your use is!! Are they just being paranoid or smart?
Why the hell do you think they are being so careful about a battery that is so safe? By the way that is really really nice battery. 7 pounds 48 volt 10ah
The link i showed you before..this is a very safe battery (i have 4 of them) with bms and large stable cells. Nowhere near the dangerous chemistry of a rc lipo or lico pack:
http://www.batteryspace.com/highpowerpolymerli-ionbattery518v10ah518wh40adrainrate.aspx
By the way before anyone slams me for being so stupid to pay 800 for a lipo battery...i got mine direct from china in bulk. Later they stopped selling to me because they were afraid of liability...a chinese company afraid of liablility selling a lipo pack to america...strange. Ever wonder why china based hobby city doesnt just offer ebike packs? Smart cookies those guys in china.
At the bottem of the page the add reads:
"Please note this battery is for R&D use only and NOT for individual customer. Read safety warning here (link) "
Here is there safety link http://www.batteryspace.com/warningsforusingbatteries.aspx
and if you want to buy this battery you have to call them and assure them your not using it on an electric bike that is going to be charged in the house, and have to sign a paper that says so and release all liability. You cant just put that battery in your shopping cart you got to call them and tell them what your use is!! Are they just being paranoid or smart?
Why the hell do you think they are being so careful about a battery that is so safe? By the way that is really really nice battery. 7 pounds 48 volt 10ah
LiFe
1 W
Two more for the ES memorable quotes lineup:
(1)
LiPo is just extremely dangerous, and it's easy to forget you have a bomb in your midst when it's been delivering excellent cycle performance for months.
Besides the obvious overcharge/overdischarge ignition triggers; environmental influences (vibration/handling) also add to the odds. Please be careful folks
(1)
(2)extremegreenmachine said:
extremegreenmachine also wrote said:
LiPo is just extremely dangerous, and it's easy to forget you have a bomb in your midst when it's been delivering excellent cycle performance for months.
Besides the obvious overcharge/overdischarge ignition triggers; environmental influences (vibration/handling) also add to the odds. Please be careful folks
Green Machine
100 kW
Thanks Life...
I have had very few supporters on this thread and appreciate any help i can get.
its really amazing how badly i get attacked just for offering a different point of view. SO what i like the opti bike...i am the one who clearly pointed out its high price, its noise, and its underpower...and somehow people keep throwing the same damn points back at me like i am some kind of dope. I am the only one who is actually riding the thing. I said it is the highest quality built bike i have seen and i get slammed for contritidicting myself. somehow its strange to like and dislike different features of a bike. I think lipo is dangerous and not ready for public consumption...so what.
I must really sound stupid but i am trying my hardest to make sense.
And i am just getting ruthlessly attacked and anytime i defend myself as logically as i can i am being violent or stupid.
ITs amazing how mad people get. Optibike is a high end bike and deserves reviewing...i am sincerley sorry for putting my neck out...never again. Posters should be careful what they contribute here...its a hard crowd.
Saying optibike is 1995 technology etc...lots of mis information flying the other way from people who have never even seen the bike.
All i know is when i first saw the opt in a musuem in san francisco, with all the electric bikes i have seen, ridden and sold in my life...i was enamored...i thought it was pure beauty and I thought "the technology is finally here" and that was in 2008. i have never seen to this day a ebike look so clean and good, and with really descent perfomance numbers. Its what got me back into ebikes and boutique ebike building, i didnt want to spend 12k on the optibike so i built my own. But i always wanted one, finally got one...and posted a honest review here on my findings here GOOD and BAD cuz i thought the group would appreciate. I had no idea that people would have such a negative reaction. I thought my review slammed the optibike...but around here guys just focused on the positive things i said. It is the best hill climbing ebike i have ridden or seen...it won the pikes hill climb...the thing climbs like a goat, it behaves like a high end mountain bike, it is comparatively light, it is reliable when climbing, it is efficient, for its weight it has very long range. It is clean looking, it does impress passerbys because it looks so slick..etc...i am telling you as it is what i am experiencing actually riding the thing around for a few hundred miles. That is not valuable insight? I also spent a lot of time telling the negatives of the bike..remember? or should i real-iterate?
Oh and sorry my video was not good enough..the hill was much steeper than it appears in the video..steep enough where mountain bikers were walking up it and we knew when we shot it that it didnt look as steep as it is in video. And i have been up much steeper on the bike but didnt have a camera or a videographer at the time. So sorry for posting such a stupid video....i really feel stupid. WEre all the videos i posted comparing the opti to hub drives stupid too?
I feel i offered some valued information here..and for whatever reason i just got bit into. I will review my 300 dollar currie bike next and maybe get a better reception.
I have had very few supporters on this thread and appreciate any help i can get.
its really amazing how badly i get attacked just for offering a different point of view. SO what i like the opti bike...i am the one who clearly pointed out its high price, its noise, and its underpower...and somehow people keep throwing the same damn points back at me like i am some kind of dope. I am the only one who is actually riding the thing. I said it is the highest quality built bike i have seen and i get slammed for contritidicting myself. somehow its strange to like and dislike different features of a bike. I think lipo is dangerous and not ready for public consumption...so what.
I must really sound stupid but i am trying my hardest to make sense.
And i am just getting ruthlessly attacked and anytime i defend myself as logically as i can i am being violent or stupid.
ITs amazing how mad people get. Optibike is a high end bike and deserves reviewing...i am sincerley sorry for putting my neck out...never again. Posters should be careful what they contribute here...its a hard crowd.
Saying optibike is 1995 technology etc...lots of mis information flying the other way from people who have never even seen the bike.
All i know is when i first saw the opt in a musuem in san francisco, with all the electric bikes i have seen, ridden and sold in my life...i was enamored...i thought it was pure beauty and I thought "the technology is finally here" and that was in 2008. i have never seen to this day a ebike look so clean and good, and with really descent perfomance numbers. Its what got me back into ebikes and boutique ebike building, i didnt want to spend 12k on the optibike so i built my own. But i always wanted one, finally got one...and posted a honest review here on my findings here GOOD and BAD cuz i thought the group would appreciate. I had no idea that people would have such a negative reaction. I thought my review slammed the optibike...but around here guys just focused on the positive things i said. It is the best hill climbing ebike i have ridden or seen...it won the pikes hill climb...the thing climbs like a goat, it behaves like a high end mountain bike, it is comparatively light, it is reliable when climbing, it is efficient, for its weight it has very long range. It is clean looking, it does impress passerbys because it looks so slick..etc...i am telling you as it is what i am experiencing actually riding the thing around for a few hundred miles. That is not valuable insight? I also spent a lot of time telling the negatives of the bike..remember? or should i real-iterate?
Oh and sorry my video was not good enough..the hill was much steeper than it appears in the video..steep enough where mountain bikers were walking up it and we knew when we shot it that it didnt look as steep as it is in video. And i have been up much steeper on the bike but didnt have a camera or a videographer at the time. So sorry for posting such a stupid video....i really feel stupid. WEre all the videos i posted comparing the opti to hub drives stupid too?
I feel i offered some valued information here..and for whatever reason i just got bit into. I will review my 300 dollar currie bike next and maybe get a better reception.
TylerDurden
100 GW
Hang in there.extremegreenmachine said:
But don't waste your time arguing with idiots. :lol:
deerfencer
100 mW
Extreme,
I for one greatly appreciated your frank reviews and ride reports and said so over at the Tidalforce Google forum, where you're welcome to post/hang anytime and I promise you'll not be screamed at. We post and discuss anything e-bike related regardless of brand and try to keep things on an even keel.
http://groups.google.com/group/Tidalforce
What I really found valuable in your reports were your real world experiences off-road riding and your description of the kind of responses you received from the non-e bike crowd when they heard the Opti. This is very valuable info for anyone contemplating a purchase as it could easily be the make-or-break factor in deciding if the Opti is the right bike for one's particular riding needs and circumstances.
LH
I for one greatly appreciated your frank reviews and ride reports and said so over at the Tidalforce Google forum, where you're welcome to post/hang anytime and I promise you'll not be screamed at. We post and discuss anything e-bike related regardless of brand and try to keep things on an even keel.
http://groups.google.com/group/Tidalforce
What I really found valuable in your reports were your real world experiences off-road riding and your description of the kind of responses you received from the non-e bike crowd when they heard the Opti. This is very valuable info for anyone contemplating a purchase as it could easily be the make-or-break factor in deciding if the Opti is the right bike for one's particular riding needs and circumstances.
LH
Uncle Ron
100 W
extremegreenmachine said:
Green Machine,
I said to Matt first, and I say to you now, thanks to both of you for an enlightening, although sometimes angry and hurtful, discussion! I know that it's perhaps petty, but quite frankly I said this first to Matt because he used his name and not just a handle or avatar. Many folks who use only a handle and/or avatar have very good reason for doing so, so I don't begrudge them, but some folks use it as cover to say any damned hurtful thing that pops into their heads about things that someone else says that may be pretty tangential to the discussion at hand. You have been the beneficiary of a lot of this dubious behavior, and dished out a little as well, not so much in what you said, but in beating the horse beyond his transgressions.
That said, count me as one who by and large agrees with your assessments, FOR MYSELF. This thread has firmed up my resolve to have nothing to do with home built LiPo/LiCo, whatever their performance and low cost at this stage of their development (I'm the original cheap, old bastard.) This is not because I'm not capable of doing so, but because the risk is too great for someone who uses e-bikes/trikes for practical work, not sport, and isn't able or enough on the ball to watch 'em like a hawk. I am so thankful that this is a place where I can come to make that decision, sometimes in spite of the epithets thrown around unthinkingly. There are very few dopes here in other than the interpersonal realm. (g) That's sometimes a function of Internet anonymity. I use my real name on every post to USUALLY control my own BS tendencies and aggressions. (g)
Keep it comin' you-all. Truth usually wills out in the end.
mdd0127
100 kW
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2008
- Messages
- 1,084
It's sad that you have bought into this drivel about lipo Uncle Ron. I'd suggest doing some more research before finalizing your decision.
extremegreenmachine,
I'm sorry if my posts come off as attacks. I'd go on a ride with you any day. It's just that some of the things you are saying are wrong, and detrimental to the advancement of light electric vehicles, which happens to be the business that I'm in right now. I have to post the truth when I see so much fear mongering and misinformation being distributed. I respect your honest review of the optibike and have no arguments with it. What got me riled up were your posts about liability and the way you stated how things are regarding liability in our society........under your logic, nothing would ever get produced because someone could always sue over something. It's absolutely retarded mindset and is only tolerated by people because they're lazy and ignorant. Those with respect and honor will take responsibility for their own actions.
Your posts about the dangers of Lipo are also things I have some big issues with. When people go online and read uninformed opinions coming from someone that claims to be an expert, the rest of us have to waste a bunch of time straightening them back out. Is lipo safe if used properly? As safe as anything that stores energy can be. Is it used and implemented properly most of the time on home built e-bikes...probably not, but to go out there completely demonizing it is just wrong.
So, since everything is everyone else's fault, lets play out some lipo fire scenarios and their "culprits":
How many of those Lipo fires were just spontaneous combustion with no human interaction?
Probably not many.
Whose would be at fault for that type of fire??? That would be the manufacturers liability, not the sellers.
What about charger faults? Ones that were hooked up correctly. Uhhhh.....I would probably have to lay that one on the charger manufacturer.
Ok, what caused the majority of lipo fire incidents.....wait for it.........HUMAN ERROR! Hooking up a charger wrong, over charging/discharging, punctures from improperly designed enclosures, packs of insufficient size, bad wiring......the list goes on and on.
Even if they did spontaneously burst into flames and burn your house down without any outside influence, as long as you were properly warned of that potential before you bought them, it's still your fault for leaving them in the house unattended!
If you don't get what I'm talking about by now, you won't and it's sad.
The main reason that there aren't more nice ebikes available from manufacturers out there is that posts like yours scare them from building what they know can be built. I hear it all the time from my investors, "How are we going to insure this thing?" My response is that the people that own them can insure them if they like throwing their money away to insurance companies and can't take responsibility for their own actions....... and that we might have to interview/test potential customers to weed out the ninnies that don't deserve to ride what we've built.
So, if there's less uninformed, misleading blabber floating around out there and people can start taking responsibility for their own actions, maybe some new manufacturers will deem the public worthy of manufacturing some fun, sustainable machines for. Until then, keep putting up with crappy batteries, low speed limits, weak motors, bicycle transmissions, and the associated high prices of manufacturing a "liability protected product".
If you were looking at the drawings and parts that are surrounding me right now, you'd agree completely with my 1995 tech statement. :wink:
extremegreenmachine,
I'm sorry if my posts come off as attacks. I'd go on a ride with you any day. It's just that some of the things you are saying are wrong, and detrimental to the advancement of light electric vehicles, which happens to be the business that I'm in right now. I have to post the truth when I see so much fear mongering and misinformation being distributed. I respect your honest review of the optibike and have no arguments with it. What got me riled up were your posts about liability and the way you stated how things are regarding liability in our society........under your logic, nothing would ever get produced because someone could always sue over something. It's absolutely retarded mindset and is only tolerated by people because they're lazy and ignorant. Those with respect and honor will take responsibility for their own actions.
Your posts about the dangers of Lipo are also things I have some big issues with. When people go online and read uninformed opinions coming from someone that claims to be an expert, the rest of us have to waste a bunch of time straightening them back out. Is lipo safe if used properly? As safe as anything that stores energy can be. Is it used and implemented properly most of the time on home built e-bikes...probably not, but to go out there completely demonizing it is just wrong.
So, since everything is everyone else's fault, lets play out some lipo fire scenarios and their "culprits":
How many of those Lipo fires were just spontaneous combustion with no human interaction?
Probably not many.
Whose would be at fault for that type of fire??? That would be the manufacturers liability, not the sellers.
What about charger faults? Ones that were hooked up correctly. Uhhhh.....I would probably have to lay that one on the charger manufacturer.
Ok, what caused the majority of lipo fire incidents.....wait for it.........HUMAN ERROR! Hooking up a charger wrong, over charging/discharging, punctures from improperly designed enclosures, packs of insufficient size, bad wiring......the list goes on and on.
Even if they did spontaneously burst into flames and burn your house down without any outside influence, as long as you were properly warned of that potential before you bought them, it's still your fault for leaving them in the house unattended!
If you don't get what I'm talking about by now, you won't and it's sad.
The main reason that there aren't more nice ebikes available from manufacturers out there is that posts like yours scare them from building what they know can be built. I hear it all the time from my investors, "How are we going to insure this thing?" My response is that the people that own them can insure them if they like throwing their money away to insurance companies and can't take responsibility for their own actions....... and that we might have to interview/test potential customers to weed out the ninnies that don't deserve to ride what we've built.
So, if there's less uninformed, misleading blabber floating around out there and people can start taking responsibility for their own actions, maybe some new manufacturers will deem the public worthy of manufacturing some fun, sustainable machines for. Until then, keep putting up with crappy batteries, low speed limits, weak motors, bicycle transmissions, and the associated high prices of manufacturing a "liability protected product".
If you were looking at the drawings and parts that are surrounding me right now, you'd agree completely with my 1995 tech statement. :wink:
kfong
100 kW
Extremgreenmachine,
I like to say I’m in your corner as well as Matts, both of you have valid points and have provided useful information to this group. A single bike design isn’t going to suit everyone, best to just appreciate the design for what it does best.
Great info by the way about your lipo experience. These are the things people need to be aware of. If you have ever experienced a lipo fire, it would really have you wondering if you are risking your house for such a hobby. I’ve had a 1000ma pack burst into flames in my RC days, not something I want to repeat ever, user error in my case, but the fire from such a small pack was amazing. The black sooty mess is as bad as the fire and it took me weeks to clean. We are relying on electronics to keep things in check. Shit happens, I recently had my brand new 3010B flame out on me. This is what I’m trusting my house with huh? The fact that a massive flame that cannot be put out due to the larger than normal capacities found in ebikes seem to be overlooked by most getting into this. Right now it’s a party with lipos being the cheap and easy solution. Fires are bound to happen, just look at the fires on RCgroups. A 10ahr pack cannot be put out once it gets started. I bet most of the people using such packs have no fall back plan in case the worst happens. With RC we used battery bunkers or lipo sacks, how are most doing this when it mounted to their ebikes? Don’t get me wrong, I like lipos and have lots of them for my RC stuff. Just not convinced I will use them for ebikes in such large capacities when there are safer chemistry to use.
I like to say I’m in your corner as well as Matts, both of you have valid points and have provided useful information to this group. A single bike design isn’t going to suit everyone, best to just appreciate the design for what it does best.
Great info by the way about your lipo experience. These are the things people need to be aware of. If you have ever experienced a lipo fire, it would really have you wondering if you are risking your house for such a hobby. I’ve had a 1000ma pack burst into flames in my RC days, not something I want to repeat ever, user error in my case, but the fire from such a small pack was amazing. The black sooty mess is as bad as the fire and it took me weeks to clean. We are relying on electronics to keep things in check. Shit happens, I recently had my brand new 3010B flame out on me. This is what I’m trusting my house with huh? The fact that a massive flame that cannot be put out due to the larger than normal capacities found in ebikes seem to be overlooked by most getting into this. Right now it’s a party with lipos being the cheap and easy solution. Fires are bound to happen, just look at the fires on RCgroups. A 10ahr pack cannot be put out once it gets started. I bet most of the people using such packs have no fall back plan in case the worst happens. With RC we used battery bunkers or lipo sacks, how are most doing this when it mounted to their ebikes? Don’t get me wrong, I like lipos and have lots of them for my RC stuff. Just not convinced I will use them for ebikes in such large capacities when there are safer chemistry to use.
Uncle Ron
100 W
What is sad? That I want to get from point A to point B on my e-trike for a meeting or a job or groceries while incurring as little risk as possible of either not making it or having any significant tinkering on either end of the journey from day to day? Jumping into the cutting edge in my TV production business pretty much destroyed a thriving business in a couple of years, not to mention my sense of self worth, so forgive me if I don't want to go through that again if I can help it. I'm a pussy, so I'll leave it to you to be a stud. Drivel to you is prudence to me. Those loaded words kinda grind, don't they?mdd0127 said:
So many thing to know and only a few years left to know them in. I don't have the energy to reinvent myself over and over, or to buy into your singular individualistic politics. The problems facing all of us demand cooperation, openness and shared effort, not individual responsibility carried to extreme. I appreciate you and others like you pushing the envelope, out on the limb. I don't want or need to join you. Point A to point B!
The difference between RC and ebike lipo usage is that ebikes don't put anywhere near the amount of stress on them as RC use does. The safety of modern LiPo has been hashed to hell and back many places on this forum, enough that many of us (myself included) feel perfectly safe with LiPo as long as it is treated properly (ie, don't overcharge, or overdischarge, don't poke holes in it, etc). Will it fail catastrophically and cause mass damage if treated improperly? Hells yes! So will SLA, Ni-x, and yes, even LiFePo4. Any time you stuff a lot of energy into a small space, and there is a failure that causes that energy to escape, of course bad things will happen. I would encourage anyone buying into LiPo fearmongering to go hang out in the 'battery technology' part of this forum for a while. Completely dismissing a whole branch of technology because of some bad experiences almost a decade ago is just ridiculous.kfong said:
extremegreenmachine: What makes you think the LiPo you linked is safer than the stuff we use? The price tag? The BMS? The low discharge rate? I can't see any mention on the site about what chemistry they used. For all we know, it could be the exact same stuff with a BMS and shrinkwrap.
As for commercial ebikes with LiPo...well, how about the Opti that started all this? That uses LiCo. The Pi-cycle uses LiCo. Honestly I don't really pay any attention to the commercial market; I just know about those two because they have come up at various spots around here.
Also, I forgot to mention it before, but a while ago you tried to make some point about RC chargers being designed to hook up to a 12V source. ..that's not a safety feature...it's because they were (as the name implies) originally designed for use in RC applications. Specifically, they were designed to be able to run off a car battery out in the middle of a field with no other power sources available.
Green Machine
100 kW
The pack i linked too has a safer chemistry with a lower discharge and charge rate so it less volatile than a rc pack, it has larger and fewer cells so less change of one cell failing...but most of all it has a built in bms. Using rc packs without bms i think is unsafe..fine for you as an end user..but as soon as you sale it liability should be your #1 concern. We are not talking just crashing and hurting yourself which is separate...we are talking homes and buildings catching on fire...loss of innocent life losing everything you own etc..customers tend to get pissed off when that happens. Mommas are like bears when they lose their babies. I mean just think about it...it only takes one time...one set of circumstances...on apartment building fire and any profit you made plus everything you worked for your whole life is gone in a lipo flash.
If you have a pack ready for prime time that is safe you should sell it right now while the market is ripe for it. No one else has the balls to sale rc packs out in the open wired together as ebike packs. It seems you are the first to come up with the idea imagine that!!! You can raise your own investment just selling lipo packs to the public right now! A simple Liability release form should make you A Ok!!! No need to talk to a lawyer before you unleash that website.
If you have a pack ready for prime time that is safe you should sell it right now while the market is ripe for it. No one else has the balls to sale rc packs out in the open wired together as ebike packs. It seems you are the first to come up with the idea imagine that!!! You can raise your own investment just selling lipo packs to the public right now! A simple Liability release form should make you A Ok!!! No need to talk to a lawyer before you unleash that website.
dogman dan
1 PW
Hmmm. Interesting reading guys. I don't know about others, but I sure as hell design my lipo power bikes so that the batteries are removed from them and charged in safer places than a garage with me sleeping above it. Mostly I use my fireplace hearth. It will sure stink up the house though, if I do have one go on me. I do have to admit to trusting my lifepo4 packs enough to charge em in the garage.
Green Machine
100 kW
x88x said:
Yeah i wanted to annunciate that point maybe you can help me.
Its been a few years since i was into RC, and when i was i wanted a high power charger that would plug into 110 house current and could not find one and i looked everywhere. I was frustrated but realized it had to be a safety thing.
If that is still the case do you think all rc users always charge there batteries out in the field? When i was a rc guy i wanted to fast charge my batteries when i got home in a flower pot...
Why is it that you can buy low voltage rc chargers for small rc packs that are safe to plug into house current...but anything that involves high voltage and big lipo packs you have to build your own power supply for if you want to charge off 110?
Why dont any of the big hobby companies sell that voltage converter themselves?
It sounds to me like the RC industry is covering there back sides. I think they are doing some thinking about how can they can offer lipo and keep there liability down. You could learn a few tricks from the rc guys. "You what?? you mickey moused your own 110 power supply to hook to our charger and you burned your house down? Shame on you!"
I may be wrong on this point but thats where i can use your help...these days can you buy high voltage chargers that have the option to plug into 110 house current? If no major hobby company offers such a thing...i think your wrong its not because all rc guys love to charge there stuff in the field off a 12 volt battery.
And if RC packs were designed to be charged outside on the field on a 12 volt charger...how could you ever rationalize commercializing something that sold rc packs with a 110 charger they were not designed or intended for and not be ridiculously liable.
kfong
100 kW
Most Lipo fires happen during the charge process, the fact we do not stress them as much as the RC stuff has little to do with it. It all comes down to your trust in the equipment and the ability to not make mistakes. It's a technology that's not for everyone and that decision is best done with being informed, not just taking it for granted that it's safe. It's a decision you have come to terms with, not all feel as you do. I use them as well but only under my terms.
Lipos themselves haven't changed, just the technology to charge them. This still falls short since the technology most people are using are meant for RC use. Originally the chargers did not do balancing till fires started cropping up. You buy a charger today but it’s not a systems view that is needed for ebike usage. It’s a charger for the RC crowd. A BMS is a must for lipos to be safe, this currently isn’t addressed properly. Cells packs are not even packaged to take the abuse for ebikes. They should be in hard cases; they are literally foil pouches, with very little protection from anything abrasive or sharp. The crashes I’ve taken in the trails would make me very concerned if I used them. The vibrations alone over time would make me check them if they are being rubbed against. It’s a great technology, but I prefer to use it for what it was designed for RC planes. For those pushing it on the trails, the rc car packs look to be a good choice. They are incased in hard plastic. This was recently put on the scene as well due to the fact that RC cars take way more punishment and vibration. Using RC stuff for ebikes is essentially what we are doing, but other issues need to be covered for lipo safety in ebike usage. Until that happens, I prefer to use other chemistries, like konions.
Lipos themselves haven't changed, just the technology to charge them. This still falls short since the technology most people are using are meant for RC use. Originally the chargers did not do balancing till fires started cropping up. You buy a charger today but it’s not a systems view that is needed for ebike usage. It’s a charger for the RC crowd. A BMS is a must for lipos to be safe, this currently isn’t addressed properly. Cells packs are not even packaged to take the abuse for ebikes. They should be in hard cases; they are literally foil pouches, with very little protection from anything abrasive or sharp. The crashes I’ve taken in the trails would make me very concerned if I used them. The vibrations alone over time would make me check them if they are being rubbed against. It’s a great technology, but I prefer to use it for what it was designed for RC planes. For those pushing it on the trails, the rc car packs look to be a good choice. They are incased in hard plastic. This was recently put on the scene as well due to the fact that RC cars take way more punishment and vibration. Using RC stuff for ebikes is essentially what we are doing, but other issues need to be covered for lipo safety in ebike usage. Until that happens, I prefer to use other chemistries, like konions.
x88x said:
Green Machine
100 kW
And i was the one who mentioned optibike and picycle the only commercial ebikes i know that offered high density lipo cells in there builds. Does anyone else know any other company? I dont.
The reason they are able to get away with it?
They designed the metal frame to withstand a lithium explosion/fire and based on there tests decided they could sale there bikes to the public with lipo packs installed in the frame....and still be safe to be charged in a garage without removing the battery. The bikes were designed by engineers and then thoroughly tested. Thats probably how they managed to get liability insurance, investors etc...
SO my point was you have to pay for that kind of engineering, frame design, and technology...and it is beyond 1995.
Maybe its worth the extra bucks for those who can afford to spend over 7k on a ebike that the bike be fire safe enough that they can charge it in there garage and not worry about their family. Who wants to charge bike like that outside? Did you see the movie gone in 60 seconds?
I am just listing one benefit of an optibike over a home build...it is comparatively fire safe. The conversation with a few guys here has been downright scary to me in that boutique builders are thinking about offering products that are potentially dangerous with no real thought on the implications or scenarios of what happens to an electric vehicle in day to day use by the average user...my number one question if i were going to sale a lipo bike would be is it fire safe.
Talking about charging...I feel i should be "charging" money for this info to a few of these guys i mean really seriously if your thinking about producing an electric vehicle and selling it to the public the questions i am bringing up are exactly the questions you should be pondering.. .. it seems so basic. We are talking about walking out of the sphere and selling something to the real world...i feel like an alien sometimes here on the sphere
But i do this post just to get back on thread regarding benefits of optibike. Do you know who your buying your ebike from? Do you trust them?
The reason they are able to get away with it?
They designed the metal frame to withstand a lithium explosion/fire and based on there tests decided they could sale there bikes to the public with lipo packs installed in the frame....and still be safe to be charged in a garage without removing the battery. The bikes were designed by engineers and then thoroughly tested. Thats probably how they managed to get liability insurance, investors etc...
SO my point was you have to pay for that kind of engineering, frame design, and technology...and it is beyond 1995.
Maybe its worth the extra bucks for those who can afford to spend over 7k on a ebike that the bike be fire safe enough that they can charge it in there garage and not worry about their family. Who wants to charge bike like that outside? Did you see the movie gone in 60 seconds?
I am just listing one benefit of an optibike over a home build...it is comparatively fire safe. The conversation with a few guys here has been downright scary to me in that boutique builders are thinking about offering products that are potentially dangerous with no real thought on the implications or scenarios of what happens to an electric vehicle in day to day use by the average user...my number one question if i were going to sale a lipo bike would be is it fire safe.
Talking about charging...I feel i should be "charging" money for this info to a few of these guys i mean really seriously if your thinking about producing an electric vehicle and selling it to the public the questions i am bringing up are exactly the questions you should be pondering.. .. it seems so basic. We are talking about walking out of the sphere and selling something to the real world...i feel like an alien sometimes here on the sphere
But i do this post just to get back on thread regarding benefits of optibike. Do you know who your buying your ebike from? Do you trust them?
Green Machine
100 kW
Regarding hobby king...
The link you provided is voltage convertor but not a charger...
I happened to receive some lipos from hobby king today. (i know ironic, but im converting a goped to lipo for myself)
I have to say hobby king is shady. They dont have to worry about american liablility laws because they are operating out of china...and even they are not offering a high output 110 volt charger (just checked).
They are doing something obviously illegal which is airshipping lipo packs.
The way they do it is by totally disguising the packaging. They use a phony name and phony return address. They do not put any kind of warning that 5 pounds of highly flammable items are in the box.
And they mark them as "gift" so they are not looked at twice by customs.
I really feel sick with myself whenever i buy stuff from china...i feel shamed but like everyone else love the low price.
I would be really hesitant about strapping hobby king packs together and selling them...very hesitant.
The link you provided is voltage convertor but not a charger...
I happened to receive some lipos from hobby king today. (i know ironic, but im converting a goped to lipo for myself)
I have to say hobby king is shady. They dont have to worry about american liablility laws because they are operating out of china...and even they are not offering a high output 110 volt charger (just checked).
They are doing something obviously illegal which is airshipping lipo packs.
The way they do it is by totally disguising the packaging. They use a phony name and phony return address. They do not put any kind of warning that 5 pounds of highly flammable items are in the box.
And they mark them as "gift" so they are not looked at twice by customs.
I really feel sick with myself whenever i buy stuff from china...i feel shamed but like everyone else love the low price.
I would be really hesitant about strapping hobby king packs together and selling them...very hesitant.
recumpence
1 GW
FYI,
Hobby King does have a US warehouse. US law allows for a certain capacity of lipo to be shipped in one package. If you order 5ah, 6S packs, they will ship two at a time to remain within the law.
Matt
Hobby King does have a US warehouse. US law allows for a certain capacity of lipo to be shipped in one package. If you order 5ah, 6S packs, they will ship two at a time to remain within the law.
Matt
