Yamaha YZ250F
- Thread starter j bjork
- Start date
j bjork
1 MW
Ianhill said:
Its not a problem that it wheelies except when logging with the computer.
The problem is that it is not aggressive enough on fast throttle blips.
Eastwood, pm:ed you.
j bjork
1 MW
Not much new, I have pretty much given up on getting the sevcon to do what I want.
It seems like fardriver could be something, so I decided to try to find a ND1081800.
The problem is that they dont make the 108V models at the moment, and it seems hard to find one.
Eventually I found a seller on alibaba that had it listed, but when I tried to buy it turns out they didnt have any.
I then found another seller on alibaba that had it listed, and it said "In stock" and "fast dispatch" on the site.
Perfect, ordered and paid.
The seller then claimed that the only one they had turned out to not work. I could ask for a refund..
Then I actually found a third seller that had it listed as "in stock, fast dispatch".
Sent a message and asked if they really had it, and in working condition, and got a "yes"
This seller was more expensive than any of the others, so I thought it might be true.
Paid again, this time I couldnt use my card, and had to do a bank transfer that took a few days.
After that and and an extra day or so he gets back to me and says that it is not available
"IT has changed to 841800" Yea, right.
Now he is checking with the factory for a solution :|
So I am waiting again, I should very likely been better off getting a ND961800 from a reliable seller from the beginning.
It seems like fardriver could be something, so I decided to try to find a ND1081800.
The problem is that they dont make the 108V models at the moment, and it seems hard to find one.
Eventually I found a seller on alibaba that had it listed, but when I tried to buy it turns out they didnt have any.
I then found another seller on alibaba that had it listed, and it said "In stock" and "fast dispatch" on the site.
Perfect, ordered and paid.
The seller then claimed that the only one they had turned out to not work. I could ask for a refund..
Then I actually found a third seller that had it listed as "in stock, fast dispatch".
Sent a message and asked if they really had it, and in working condition, and got a "yes"
This seller was more expensive than any of the others, so I thought it might be true.
Paid again, this time I couldnt use my card, and had to do a bank transfer that took a few days.
After that and and an extra day or so he gets back to me and says that it is not available
"IT has changed to 841800" Yea, right.
Now he is checking with the factory for a solution :|
So I am waiting again, I should very likely been better off getting a ND961800 from a reliable seller from the beginning.
larsb
1 MW
Ouch. Hope it works out for you. I'll let you know if i get the dyno working. Maybe then we can just do some trials. Off course almost impossible if there are no directions at all what to change.. couldn't you get a file with some similar motor settings to start from?
j bjork
1 MW
I have files with zero motors, I also have a part with the motor settings for an me (dont remember the model now)
I have also found explanations for most of the settings. I think I have got everything right, or at least "out of the way".
Meaning limits high enough that they shouldnt limit.
Maybe fine tuning current PI regulation is all that it is about..
It seems getting an alibaba refund means you get most of the money back, $100 or so is lost in translation
I have also found explanations for most of the settings. I think I have got everything right, or at least "out of the way".
Meaning limits high enough that they shouldnt limit.
Maybe fine tuning current PI regulation is all that it is about..
It seems getting an alibaba refund means you get most of the money back, $100 or so is lost in translation
j bjork
1 MW
I was looking for another throttle with a switch like the domino a while back.
I (think I) need a switch it the throttle to be able to have motor brake when I release the throttle on sevcon.
I have a beat up domino, but it is just a matter of time before it breaks.
I couldnt find a new one in Europe, and they are expensive everywhere.
I went looking for alternatives, and hirschmann turned up. Alta used a version of those with shorter throw, and I was able to find those on ebay. It was in USA, so even though it started at $40 it ended at $100 with shipping and taxes..
Here is what I got. Short throw, stiff return spring. Kind of big housing over sensor and spring.
6 wires, hmm?
After some searching and measuring I find that there are 2 hall sensors, no switch
(One is about half the output voltage) That is a good setup for safety, but not what I needed.
It probably dosent matter now, I dont expect to be using the sevcon.
I (think I) need a switch it the throttle to be able to have motor brake when I release the throttle on sevcon.
I have a beat up domino, but it is just a matter of time before it breaks.
I couldnt find a new one in Europe, and they are expensive everywhere.
I went looking for alternatives, and hirschmann turned up. Alta used a version of those with shorter throw, and I was able to find those on ebay. It was in USA, so even though it started at $40 it ended at $100 with shipping and taxes..
Here is what I got. Short throw, stiff return spring. Kind of big housing over sensor and spring.
6 wires, hmm?
After some searching and measuring I find that there are 2 hall sensors, no switch
(One is about half the output voltage) That is a good setup for safety, but not what I needed.
It probably dosent matter now, I dont expect to be using the sevcon.
larsb
1 MW
I checked diyelectriccar forum, seems half the posts there are people selling a sevcon or wanting help with them. It’s not a good controller if it takes a masters degree to program it.. screw sevcons.
j bjork
1 MW
It has very much possibilities to set it up just about any way you want, and the can buss communication with other ecu:s or just to send data to a display or something seems very interesting.
But yes, then there is the problem that it is so damn hard to understand and setup
But yes, then there is the problem that it is so damn hard to understand and setup
Pretty sure you can make a simple mosfet circuit to act as a 0 throttle switch without the mechanical switch. I will draw it up later to confirm. That or its about 20 lines of code on a micro to do the same. I also tried measuring the phase inductance and resistance but was having trouble with the bench LCR giving crappy readings. I will try again with the pocket LCR. I suppose I could probably use my VNA in a pinch.
Doug
Doug
Measured inductance from about 47uH to 67uH as the motor rotates. That was at 200khz. DC resistance around 0.2ohm.
Throttle release switch, was thinking about it and id probably use a LM311 comparator a bit like this.
Even with the fardriver because i havent had much luck with regen yet. It will begin regen, just sometimes wont re-engage the power. I also found the Fardriver throttle voltage noisy so i plan to regulate/filter mine... that or go back to a hall throttle. The comparator will work with either.
Doug
Throttle release switch, was thinking about it and id probably use a LM311 comparator a bit like this.
Even with the fardriver because i havent had much luck with regen yet. It will begin regen, just sometimes wont re-engage the power. I also found the Fardriver throttle voltage noisy so i plan to regulate/filter mine... that or go back to a hall throttle. The comparator will work with either.
Doug
larsb
1 MW
200mohm can’t be right? That’s huge.
2 mohm?
2 mohm?
j bjork
1 MW
Thanks
I suppose the phase resistance should be 2mohm. I measured about 5mohm phase to phase, with wye connection that is 2 phases.
So one phase should be half of that.
I think I measured about 100uH low and 130uH high (it should be in the thread somewhere), same thing here 2 phases.
Sevcon accepted 130uH, I later realized I should use 65uH for one phase.
If I put in something random the controller dont "find" it when the motor runs, with the right numbers it adjusts slightly with the motor running.
Sevcon has a very odd throttle supply, it starts at maybe 12v.
Then it drops depending of the load, it is 0v with 25mA if I remember correct.
With a hall throttle that consumes maybe 7mA it is maybe 9v supply.
Would that work with the LM311 circuit?
The regen problem with fardriver, is that both with a button (high/low brake) and with throttle off regen?
I want especially a little regen at throttle off, very useful going down slippery slopes.
A little stronger on a button can also be useful when you dont have a variable regen :|
I suppose the phase resistance should be 2mohm. I measured about 5mohm phase to phase, with wye connection that is 2 phases.
So one phase should be half of that.
I think I measured about 100uH low and 130uH high (it should be in the thread somewhere), same thing here 2 phases.
Sevcon accepted 130uH, I later realized I should use 65uH for one phase.
If I put in something random the controller dont "find" it when the motor runs, with the right numbers it adjusts slightly with the motor running.
Sevcon has a very odd throttle supply, it starts at maybe 12v.
Then it drops depending of the load, it is 0v with 25mA if I remember correct.
With a hall throttle that consumes maybe 7mA it is maybe 9v supply.
Would that work with the LM311 circuit?
The regen problem with fardriver, is that both with a button (high/low brake) and with throttle off regen?
I want especially a little regen at throttle off, very useful going down slippery slopes.
A little stronger on a button can also be useful when you dont have a variable regen :|
I just measured between 2 phase wires. I used a cheap pocket LCR. I will feed 1A into the motor and measure the voltage drop tonight.
LM311 will be fine with a 12v supply and will consume bugger all power. I dont know how the low brake input works on the sevcon, if it has an internal pullup or is an opto input you can up the 1k pullup to 100k to get rid of that draw. LM311 is open collector so the input needs to be active low to work with my circuit. It can be changed to be active high.
Im just using throttle release for regen with the fardriver. I cant stand the motor shutting off when i apply the brakes. A great way to drop you on your face going around a roundabout . I plan on having a play with the controllers rs485. If you can reprogram while running you can probably get some level of variable regen. That, or maybe PWM the low brake. All to be tested.
Doug
LM311 will be fine with a 12v supply and will consume bugger all power. I dont know how the low brake input works on the sevcon, if it has an internal pullup or is an opto input you can up the 1k pullup to 100k to get rid of that draw. LM311 is open collector so the input needs to be active low to work with my circuit. It can be changed to be active high.
Im just using throttle release for regen with the fardriver. I cant stand the motor shutting off when i apply the brakes. A great way to drop you on your face going around a roundabout
. I plan on having a play with the controllers rs485. If you can reprogram while running you can probably get some level of variable regen. That, or maybe PWM the low brake. All to be tested.Doug
j bjork
1 MW
Is the inductance what you get between 2 wires too?
In that case it seems like you have half the inductance I have :?
The throttle off switch is not a brake switch, it is called SF1 and is a throttle safety switch.
I can just code it not used if I dont have it, but it seems I cant get brake on throttle off in that case.
In the manual it says "impedance to B+ 44k, impedance to B- 44k", dont know if that says anything.
They can be configured as active low or high, but mine is set active low.
There is a bunch of input switches you can code if you want :wink:
Pwm on the low brake sounds interesting if that would work :thumb:
Something like this?: https://www.banggood.com/Voltage-To-PWM-Converter-Module-0-5V-0-10V-To-0-100-pencent--p-1183840.html?utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cpc_organic&gmcCountry=SE&utm_content=minha&utm_campaign=aceng-pmax-se-en-pc¤cy=SEK&cur_warehouse=CN&createTmp=1&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cpc_pt&utm_content=meruem&utm_campaign=aceng-ssc-se-all-220411-meruem&ad_id=367117562532&gclid=CjwKCAjw7vuUBhBUEiwAEdu2pPahVYgy6HsGi7cWGcltrgsXSnu32cQBgoTfJDY_V16rMuzist_15xoC0RQQAvD_BwE
I have started reading trough the fardriver manual, it is not one of the better I have seen.
In that case it seems like you have half the inductance I have :?
The throttle off switch is not a brake switch, it is called SF1 and is a throttle safety switch.
I can just code it not used if I dont have it, but it seems I cant get brake on throttle off in that case.
In the manual it says "impedance to B+ 44k, impedance to B- 44k", dont know if that says anything.
They can be configured as active low or high, but mine is set active low.
There is a bunch of input switches you can code if you want :wink:
Pwm on the low brake sounds interesting if that would work :thumb:
Something like this?: https://www.banggood.com/Voltage-To-PWM-Converter-Module-0-5V-0-10V-To-0-100-pencent--p-1183840.html?utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cpc_organic&gmcCountry=SE&utm_content=minha&utm_campaign=aceng-pmax-se-en-pc¤cy=SEK&cur_warehouse=CN&createTmp=1&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cpc_pt&utm_content=meruem&utm_campaign=aceng-ssc-se-all-220411-meruem&ad_id=367117562532&gclid=CjwKCAjw7vuUBhBUEiwAEdu2pPahVYgy6HsGi7cWGcltrgsXSnu32cQBgoTfJDY_V16rMuzist_15xoC0RQQAvD_BwE
I have started reading trough the fardriver manual, it is not one of the better I have seen.
j bjork
1 MW
I get asked to send the cad file for the motor from time to time, so I might as well just post it here.
It is for the motor I have, it is not the same that is sold now.
It is an .stp file, but I had to rename it to be able to upload.
It is for the motor I have, it is not the same that is sold now.
It is an .stp file, but I had to rename it to be able to upload.
Hi, Jbjork maybe you can help me. So i had bought the qs 180 and my controller before they changed it to the encoder version. But when I received it I found out it has an encoder so my controller will no be compatible since the fardriver I need is the encoder version. Im thinking of swaping the sensor module in the motor. I was woundering if you could take a picture of the sensor in your motor since the one you have use an hall sensor. thanks
j bjork
1 MW
It is glued on pretty hard. I dont want to risk damaging something when I dont really have to get in there.
j bjork
1 MW
Got a package today
First impressions, It seems I never get the original packaging.
That is a little sad, but I guess it dosent really matter.
The surface is strange, it looks like it has been sanded with an oscillating sander.
Like you would use before a paint job:
First I thought it had been done afterwards, to hide some marks or something. But it looks like it has the same surface on the upside too, on the small areas I can see. Not a problem I suppose, but It looks more homemade than professional :wink:
They used hotglue to seal the connector, it looks like they done a good job getting it in everywhere.
Again, not very professional but I sure have seen similar solutions before.
If there are no good seals for the connector I think they could have spent a little more for a better connector.
The other side of the little harness, I didnt get any mating connectors or pins.
That seems a little strange, I even got that for a cheap votol.
There is also some leftover dirt in the threads for the phase and battery wires, but the threads themself looks good.
The sticker says 800A 1800A, I had read some spec that said it "only" had 1500pA despite of the name.( The track version had 1800pA and something like 1300bA ) So that was a pleasant surprise
I saw something confusing in the wiring: "60VKEY orange" it also says "Electric door lock key".
I suppose that is to turn on/off, but what do they mean 60V? I hope I dont have to convert to 60V for the on off signal?
First impressions, It seems I never get the original packaging.
That is a little sad, but I guess it dosent really matter.
The surface is strange, it looks like it has been sanded with an oscillating sander.
Like you would use before a paint job:
First I thought it had been done afterwards, to hide some marks or something. But it looks like it has the same surface on the upside too, on the small areas I can see. Not a problem I suppose, but It looks more homemade than professional :wink:
They used hotglue to seal the connector, it looks like they done a good job getting it in everywhere.
Again, not very professional but I sure have seen similar solutions before.
If there are no good seals for the connector I think they could have spent a little more for a better connector.
The other side of the little harness, I didnt get any mating connectors or pins.
That seems a little strange, I even got that for a cheap votol.
There is also some leftover dirt in the threads for the phase and battery wires, but the threads themself looks good.
The sticker says 800A 1800A, I had read some spec that said it "only" had 1500pA despite of the name.( The track version had 1800pA and something like 1300bA ) So that was a pleasant surprise
I saw something confusing in the wiring: "60VKEY orange" it also says "Electric door lock key".
I suppose that is to turn on/off, but what do they mean 60V? I hope I dont have to convert to 60V for the on off signal?
j bjork
1 MW
The size..
It is one thing to look at numbers, another thing to see it in reality:
Sorry about the dirt, I had a short testride in the woods some time back.
Afterwards I just put it back in the garage disappointed, and havent really looked at it since.
And now I was to eager to get started to wash first :lol:
Anyway, what a difference
It is even more obvious when mounting it on the bike:
The plan was to just drill some new holes, that way I could easily change controllers back and forth.
But I will have to change the bracket, I can shave off a good 75mm of the length and maybe 15mm in the height.
The length that sticks out behind the fender is about halved
I was a little worried about the placement of the connector. But with the controller being so (relatively) small, it will be covered nicely by the fender.
It is one thing to look at numbers, another thing to see it in reality:
Sorry about the dirt, I had a short testride in the woods some time back.
Afterwards I just put it back in the garage disappointed, and havent really looked at it since.
And now I was to eager to get started to wash first :lol:
Anyway, what a difference
It is even more obvious when mounting it on the bike:
The plan was to just drill some new holes, that way I could easily change controllers back and forth.
But I will have to change the bracket, I can shave off a good 75mm of the length and maybe 15mm in the height.
The length that sticks out behind the fender is about halved
I was a little worried about the placement of the connector. But with the controller being so (relatively) small, it will be covered nicely by the fender.
liveforphysics
100 TW
Great to see its so small next to the size6.
I would pack that connector with dielectric gel.
I would pack that connector with dielectric gel.
Wow a lot smaller then sevcon. Interestingly mine came with a finned heatsink, not the sanded finish. The 60vkey just means a minimum of 60v. I dont know how you did your wiring but basically that wire needs to get connected to batt+ to turn on the drive.
Doug
Doug
j bjork
1 MW
I just connected the key switch wire to B+
But I have a pre charge problem now..
Sevcon had its own pre charge and contactor control, so I didnt have to worry about it.
I tried to keep the electrical system simple, and didnt have a 12v system at all.
I had an idea for a simple pre charge system with a resistor and a 12v converter in parallel.
Here is the converter I am using.
And pre charge resistor.
I have a built in relay in the batteries that i control on the negative side with a switch, because I dont want hi voltage at the switches.
When that relay turns on both the resistor and converter gets power at the same time. It takes about 0.7-0.8 seconds for the converter to power up and switch on the contactors, and during that time the controller gets pre charged.
With the contactors disconnected from the controller it looks like this:
The yellow line is the voltage on the controller, the green is output from the contactors.
That the voltage is climbing a little on the contactors before they close is probably just some interference, as there is nothing pulling the voltage down.
As you can see, there is about a 20v difference when the contactors close. I dont know if that is good or bad.
The problem now is that my small relay in the battery dont seem to handle the pre charge current very well
I am thinking that it might work if I use a second relay or something, that turns on a little after the one in the battery.
It would still have to take the load, but it wouldnt have to switch under load.
That could be controlled by the 12v converter, but then I would loose my "ghetto pre charge timer"
Doug, how have you solved the pre charge?
But I have a pre charge problem now..
Sevcon had its own pre charge and contactor control, so I didnt have to worry about it.
I tried to keep the electrical system simple, and didnt have a 12v system at all.
I had an idea for a simple pre charge system with a resistor and a 12v converter in parallel.
Here is the converter I am using.
And pre charge resistor.
I have a built in relay in the batteries that i control on the negative side with a switch, because I dont want hi voltage at the switches.
When that relay turns on both the resistor and converter gets power at the same time. It takes about 0.7-0.8 seconds for the converter to power up and switch on the contactors, and during that time the controller gets pre charged.
With the contactors disconnected from the controller it looks like this:
The yellow line is the voltage on the controller, the green is output from the contactors.
That the voltage is climbing a little on the contactors before they close is probably just some interference, as there is nothing pulling the voltage down.
As you can see, there is about a 20v difference when the contactors close. I dont know if that is good or bad.
The problem now is that my small relay in the battery dont seem to handle the pre charge current very well
I am thinking that it might work if I use a second relay or something, that turns on a little after the one in the battery.
It would still have to take the load, but it wouldnt have to switch under load.
That could be controlled by the 12v converter, but then I would loose my "ghetto pre charge timer"
Doug, how have you solved the pre charge?
speedy1984
100 W
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2018
- Messages
- 248
liveforphysics said:
Thats a great idea :wink:
j bjork
1 MW
I can add that I have welded contactors in one of the batteries now.
I had a problem with my circuit that I didnt think about at first.
When everything is on, and I turned off the ignition the relay that supply power to the 12v converter and pre charge resistor turns off.
But the resistor is connected to B+ on the controller, and then supply power from B+ to the output on the relay. That means it also supplies power to the 12v converter, and that keeps the contactors on..
I disconnected the resistor to turn off, then forgot about it. Turned on without pre charge, then I culdnt turn off. Everything turned off as it should, but the contactor(s) stays on
I tried turning them on and off a bunch of times without load, also tried hitting the battery with a plastic hammer. So far no luck.
A diode in series with the resistor solved turn off problem, but not the welded contactor..
I had a problem with my circuit that I didnt think about at first.
When everything is on, and I turned off the ignition the relay that supply power to the 12v converter and pre charge resistor turns off.
But the resistor is connected to B+ on the controller, and then supply power from B+ to the output on the relay. That means it also supplies power to the 12v converter, and that keeps the contactors on..
I disconnected the resistor to turn off, then forgot about it. Turned on without pre charge, then I culdnt turn off. Everything turned off as it should, but the contactor(s) stays on
I tried turning them on and off a bunch of times without load, also tried hitting the battery with a plastic hammer. So far no luck.
A diode in series with the resistor solved turn off problem, but not the welded contactor..
j bjork
1 MW
A controlled pre charge would be better of course, I dont know if something like this is what I want:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=40142&start=100
My contactors are on the positive side though.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=40142&start=100
My contactors are on the positive side though.
