Yamaha YZ250F

[SlowCo]

I'm also still following with much interest. Great build and nice progress again!

 

[speedy1984]

Yes, if it is the same on the newer motors? They changed the front and rear covers, so it might not be the same mounting points etc. Hackey had made encoders for some motors too, so he might have something that fits. The problem is that I want to ride now. And it is 2-3 weeks or something to a big competition that I already signed up for, so I am rather short on time for sending stuff halfway across the world.
I know it wasnt the smartest move to change controller in the middle of high season, but I didnt want to have it just lie here for months when I finally got it.

Yeah Hackey told me needs a week for testing but he has what you and I Both needGuess it's just going to be a time thing now.How bad is it to ride?Also at what erpm does it switch atm

 

[j bjork]

It is not very bad, it stutters a little when it switches over if you are hard on the throttle. I could also feel a little stutter a few times at higher rpm at high power. I only run 700pA and 300bA though. That was on a partly pretty fast track on Sunday.
Hackey said he would finish a beta version of 6.05 that would probably solve the problem and we agreed on a time on Tuesday.
But then he wasnt there.
Wednesday I went riding, but something happened, the motor started running rough. I didnt know how to read fault codes on the phone, so I dont know what it was
I think it felt like I lost a phase, but an hour later when I unloaded the bike at home it was fine again
Anyway, today we were supposed to try again with the new firmware. Hackey just needed half an hour to eat first, but that is 2 and a half hour ago. So not this evening either it seems..
He said that they are moving to a bigger place, and that is why it is so unpredictable.

 

[A-DamW]

Have you tried running completely sensorless?
Should be easy to test, in vesc-tool: Motor Settings->FOC->General tab, set the Sensor Mode to 'Sensorless'
May not even have to disconnect the halls.
Then in: Motor Settings->FOC->Sensorless tab, you can play around with the openloop startup parameters.
I found the openloop preset buttons at the bottom of the tab really helped getting into the ballpark tuning for motor startup.

 

[speedy1984]

It is not very bad, it stutters a little when it switches over if you are hard on the throttle. I could also feel a little stutter a few times at higher rpm at high power. I only run 700pA and 300bA though. That was on a partly pretty fast track on Sunday.
Hackey said he would finish a beta version of 6.05 that would probably solve the problem and we agreed on a time on Tuesday.
But then he wasnt there.
Wednesday I went riding, but something happened, the motor started running rough. I didnt know how to read fault codes on the phone, so I dont know what it was
I think it felt like I lost a phase, but an hour later when I unloaded the bike at home it was fine again
Anyway, today we were supposed to try again with the new firmware. Hackey just needed half an hour to eat first, but that is 2 and a half hour ago. So not this evening either it seems..
He said that they are moving to a bigger place, and that is why it is so unpredictable.

oh really,I can't have it running like that on a MX track and tbh anything other than bloody perfect for what it's cost me.How does this new firmware supposed to sort this problem I wonder He's been very helpful with me tbh so I'm sure he will sort it.Think I'm still going to go Encoder direction either way now tbh.

 

[Eastwood]

oh really,I can't have it running like that on a MX track and tbh anything other than bloody perfect for what it's cost me.

That’s what I’m thinking for the cost we pay for these controllers there should be no issues

 

[dougf]

There are some pictures of the encoder in my thread if you want to look and see if it will fit.

Sounds like Hackey hasnt fixed it yet if he keeps skipping on your support. Only reason to not help a customer. Your being too nice, get on every social media and tell everyone how crap his drive is and you'll get some support.

The motor stuttering at the track but being fine when you get home sounds like dirt or water in a connector.

Doug

 

[speedy1984]

Checked mine tonight after reading this thread.Wont fit unfortunately

 

[j bjork]

 

[j bjork]

Ha, I was able to copy dougf:s picture. The mounting holes sure looks different

 

[j bjork]

Have you tried running completely sensorless?
Should be easy to test, in vesc-tool: Motor Settings->FOC->General tab, set the Sensor Mode to 'Sensorless'
May not even have to disconnect the halls.
Then in: Motor Settings->FOC->Sensorless tab, you can play around with the openloop startup parameters.
I found the openloop preset buttons at the bottom of the tab really helped getting into the ballpark tuning for motor startup.

No, I have left it to Hackey to tune. I thought I might just as well, as he seems to know what he is doing and if something goes wrong it isnt because of my tuning attempts.. And he seems to prefer to do it. From what I understand sensorless isnt very good at big ipm motors.

The differense on 6.05 should be that instead of a fixed switchover point from hall to sensorless it is gradual. There should also be some changes to the observer so it works better on ipm motors.

I think the default switch over was 7000erpm? Then I could feel that the bike started taking off then lost power. If hitting the throttle at very slow speed twice in a row it often felt powerful the first time and sluggish the second. I think I have 3000erpm now, then it hesitates a little first then take off. (at very low speed, ok at higher normally)

 

[Eastwood]

There should also be some changes to the observer so it works better on ipm motors.

Been reading up on observers as I’ve never heard of this before. It looks like it basically sends feedback from the sensors etc.., for more accurate feedback. Although it doesn’t seem to be helping but making things worse.

If hitting the throttle at very slow speed twice in a row it often felt powerful the first time and sluggish the second.

This sounds bad, I hope there’s a fix with this through tuning. I don’t want to jump the gun before you have it fully tuned. But I'm second-guessing whether I should’ve ordered this controller or not.

Seems that the QS 180 should not be an issue with this controller, considering it’s one of the most popular motors. It’s not like it’s some unknown motor that they couldn’t have done extensive testing on.

 

[j bjork]

Qs 180 in not that common, I think mine is the first Hackey is setting up.
Not rare, but a lot less common than qs 138
I quess ipm motors hasnt been very common on vesc earlier, so it might not be that developed in that regard.
I havent read up on observers, but the idea I got was that it uses the motors back emf to calculate position and not use any sensors.

 

[j bjork]

I got hold of Hackey this evening, and didnt let him slip away
He changed firmware and vesc tool, I cant say that I saw much difference in the settings. It still had switchover erpm and all that.
At first it was pretty much the same, I could for sure feel it switch over and I thought it felt sluggish for 650pA that he set at first.
He did some more changes, and things got better.
I still felt it was missing a little "bite", but he had erased all my settings. One of them was throttle response, going from 0,3 to 0,2 and I think we are back on track.
However, when I was out testing one last time after some brake etc. adjustments I got the "lost phase or something" issue back
The controller dosent seem to set a fault when it happens, but I noticed I can find a motor position where it wont even start without load.
Anyway, I think I was able to log some data. I hope it can be useful.

 

[JRP3]

but he had erased all my settings

You should be able to save and restore your settings, might be a good idea if you have something that works reasonably well before changing things. Kevin from Alien Rides talks about it in this video, at 16:00

 

[Eastwood]

Qs 180 in not that common, I think mine is the first Hackey is setting up.
Not rare, but a lot less common than qs 138
I quess ipm motors hasnt been very common on vesc earlier, so it might not be that developed in that regard.
I havent read up on observers, but the idea I got was that it uses the motors back emf to calculate position and not use any sensors.

Yeah, for sure not as common as the QS138 but That being said, I would think 3shul would’ve done extensive testing with all the main QS motors since a lot of people use the qs brand. I really hope you get it sorted with the right tune with using the qs180. It is a good look that Hackey‘s really trying to help you. Just hope this gets solved. It sounds software related, hopefully it’s not anything hardware related.

 

[j bjork]

You should be able to save and restore your settings, might be a good idea if you have something that works reasonably well before changing things. Kevin from Alien Rides talks about it in this video, at 16:00

Yes, but if I load the old settings I erase the new. I suppose Hackey prefer to start fresh, if there would be some bad setting that messes up things among the old ones. In this case maybe it was necessary to start over as it is a new firmware?
It is not a lot of extra settings, but it can be hard to remember speedo settings and things like that

 

[JRP3]

You might be able to save more than one setup, or export them and then reload them if needed.

 

[j bjork]

I started working on my race trolley:

I will add a little side support, it seems like the batteries could overturn if you get a bit overenthusiastic pushing the trolley

 

[Eastwood]

I started working on my race trolley:

I will add a little side support, it seems like the batteries could overturn if you get a bit overenthusiastic pushing the trolley

That’s awesome you have 3 batteries for the bike

 

[SlowCo]

Awesome trolley!
It could do with some hub motors

 

[j bjork]

I recently built the third battery, there are a few occasions where 2 aren't enough:

I was at a track last winter that is a little too far away to go often.
It is rather long and fast, I think one lap is 12km and I could only do 2 on each battery.
Then I felt I could have done one or maybe 2 laps more if I had a third battery

And the long competitions like "Stångebroslaget" that is coming up soon.
A long track, about 22km.
After 2 hours the finish flag drops, if you are out on a lap you have an hour to finish.
So plenty of time to do 3 laps if nothing goes wrong, and I have to change battery each lap.

If I am able to 3 laps and 2 battery changes in under 2 hours I can do 4 laps.
But then I would need 4 batteries..

I have almost everything to build a forth, I lack 110v relay, fuse and motivation
Maybe I should take a look at old results and see what times different riders have.
I would have to do a lap under 35min if I should have 5min for a battery change I think.
Even if I could do it once, I dont think I can do it 3 laps in a row

 

[j bjork]

A little update on the 3shul hesc tuning.
There has 2 problems that I thought were the same or related, but maybe the weren't.

1: The small stutter/hesitation at low speed when it switches from hall sensors to observer.
2: A stutter that stays over the rpm range, a lot of lost power and rough running.

1 was probably solved with some tuning and the beta fw 6.05
2 started the second time I was riding it on a track, I noticed the rough running and went back home.
At home it was gone, and the bike worked normal again.

Around that time we did the switch to 6.05, tuned it a little at home and it seemed fine.
Tested more, after a while the problem 2 came back. It came more often, and now it seems to be constant.

Eventually I tried doing a motor detection again:

The saved values with 2,8mOhm and about 65uH should be about right, 600mOhm etc. not so much..
It looks like it is time to change back to the fardriver, or what do you think?

 

[Eastwood]

It looks like it is time to change back to the fardriver, or what do you think?

Oh wow.. Not good!
Hopefully Hackey can figure something out for you.

 

[speedy1984]

Im sure i read i guy done his detection the 2nd time at a different temp and it made all the difference maybe Workshop nice and warm then outside riding its colder ect ect.Ill see if i can post mine up.