I’m interested in building a manned drone and believe there are more than capable persons to help with motor, propeller and electronics package. I am a machinist that has everything I need to build the frame and any connecting pieces. I’d be willing to exchange that for a parts list and assembly drawing for a complete electric motor propeller combination. Or pay out right for services. 300 pounds empty weight 300 pounds payload .
Building manned drone electronics help please
- Thread starter Shoprat
- Start date
I moved your thread from Forum Rules and Features (wierd place to post a problem thread) into Electric Aircraft (the correct place to put it).
How fast does it need to go?
At what altitude?
Under what conditions?
For how long?
What type of aircraft will it be? Prop? Jet? fixed-wing? Variable? 'Copter?
How many engines?
Is the 300lbs empty weight just the "airframe"? (if this includes the entire vehicle, you'll need to specify how much weight you have left after the airframe / etc is accounted for, so whoever helps figure out the rest can tell if it's even possible to do)
Any other specific required features or performance requirements?
(BTW, it's not a drone if it's manned.
)
How fast does it need to go?
At what altitude?
Under what conditions?
For how long?
What type of aircraft will it be? Prop? Jet? fixed-wing? Variable? 'Copter?
How many engines?
Is the 300lbs empty weight just the "airframe"? (if this includes the entire vehicle, you'll need to specify how much weight you have left after the airframe / etc is accounted for, so whoever helps figure out the rest can tell if it's even possible to do)
Any other specific required features or performance requirements?
(BTW, it's not a drone if it's manned.
)
Well, you'll still need to define it to be able to come up with a system to lift and fly it.
Until you know (and tell us) what exactly you want it to do, we could only tell you that for a vehicle "somewhere between a Ryse Recon and Jetson One" with "Similar performance to Recon" you'd need a lift and flight system somewhere between a Ryse Recon and Jetson One that is similar capabilities to whatever the Recon has.
It takes a certain amount of power to a specific job...to fly a certain speed at a certain altitude, or to lift a certain weight at a minimum rate, and so it also takes a certain amount of motor vs prop, and battery, controller, etc to do a certain job. Wihtout knowing exactly what that job is, you can't know what prop, what motor to drive it, what controller to run the motor, and what battery to power it, or how much battery you need to run it all for the time / distance you need.
( most especially, you never want to run out of battery unless you are *certain* that the system will autorotate safely all the way to the ground under the specific weather/wind/ground/etc conditions it will be used under. )
Until you know (and tell us) what exactly you want it to do, we could only tell you that for a vehicle "somewhere between a Ryse Recon and Jetson One" with "Similar performance to Recon" you'd need a lift and flight system somewhere between a Ryse Recon and Jetson One that is similar capabilities to whatever the Recon has.
It takes a certain amount of power to a specific job...to fly a certain speed at a certain altitude, or to lift a certain weight at a minimum rate, and so it also takes a certain amount of motor vs prop, and battery, controller, etc to do a certain job. Wihtout knowing exactly what that job is, you can't know what prop, what motor to drive it, what controller to run the motor, and what battery to power it, or how much battery you need to run it all for the time / distance you need.
( most especially, you never want to run out of battery unless you are *certain* that the system will autorotate safely all the way to the ground under the specific weather/wind/ground/etc conditions it will be used under. )
Proposed specifications ,
Speed—70 MPH , altitude—10,000 ft. MSL , 1000 ft AGL , flight conditions , no precipitation up to 25 mph wind, temperature range 10 below 0 to 100° above Fahrenheit. flight duration 40 minutes. Motors 6–8 Props , empty weight 400 lbs. Useful load 300 pounds. Hope this helps !
Speed—70 MPH , altitude—10,000 ft. MSL , 1000 ft AGL , flight conditions , no precipitation up to 25 mph wind, temperature range 10 below 0 to 100° above Fahrenheit. flight duration 40 minutes. Motors 6–8 Props , empty weight 400 lbs. Useful load 300 pounds. Hope this helps !
DaLanMan
10 kW
Just paused to look, and yup, you are in the US... I have good news and bad news for you.
The good news is there are a couple companies in the silicon valley area building similar units and they, last I looked, had some pretty open forums for discussion.
The bad news, each and every one of them got shut down on their dream of flying cars by the simple fact that the FAA controls these airways and amateurs' need not apply.
My license is expired (can't fly the bird if you have a terminal illness, so fussy) and I never got around to getting certified on helo, but I do know that when we were kicking around building a Hiller Flying Platform I was the only guy in the room with wings, I looked into it and was told that absolutely if the FAA at some point designates a flight model and certification structure I could skip ground school blah blah blah, or in other words "The FAA does not have any category for that flying device, being that it has no category, if we catch ya in one, your wings are toast"
Now as for auto Rotate.. I understand the basics of doing this particular maneuver... i don't think there is a way to do such a thing with a multi-point electric motor, I also don't see the design including a spec for variable grab. If them lil props are not controlled by a collective, and again, I never got the cert, but my understanding is no collective, no auto rotate.
With that said, I am all for it, keep in mind, taking advice from terminal patients on things that can end in catastrophic end of life is counter indicated by the sane people
The good news is there are a couple companies in the silicon valley area building similar units and they, last I looked, had some pretty open forums for discussion.
The bad news, each and every one of them got shut down on their dream of flying cars by the simple fact that the FAA controls these airways and amateurs' need not apply.
My license is expired (can't fly the bird if you have a terminal illness, so fussy) and I never got around to getting certified on helo, but I do know that when we were kicking around building a Hiller Flying Platform I was the only guy in the room with wings, I looked into it and was told that absolutely if the FAA at some point designates a flight model and certification structure I could skip ground school blah blah blah, or in other words "The FAA does not have any category for that flying device, being that it has no category, if we catch ya in one, your wings are toast"
Now as for auto Rotate.. I understand the basics of doing this particular maneuver... i don't think there is a way to do such a thing with a multi-point electric motor, I also don't see the design including a spec for variable grab. If them lil props are not controlled by a collective, and again, I never got the cert, but my understanding is no collective, no auto rotate.
With that said, I am all for it, keep in mind, taking advice from terminal patients on things that can end in catastrophic end of life is counter indicated by the sane people
Thank you for your input. I’m sorry to hear of your terminal condition. I will pray for you if that’s ok?
Thank you for your response. I’m sorry to hear of your terminal condition. Can I pray for you? I am a helicopter and airplane pilot and always enjoyed auto rotations especially the last one second before hitting the ground. Lol. I am also a missionary involved with a international organization. In Africa, in particular, this could have great use. Especially when the fuel would come from solar. I would be interested in talking with you if you would like.
Dui ni shuo de dui
100 kW
Before comitting to some complex, expensive and powerful machine design, why not start by a much simpler and relatively cheap approach first?
I'm thinking about something like this :
Sure it's not nearly as fancy, but it will let you gain some precious experience for cheap and it can be build rather quickly.
Sorry I can't help for your specific question regarding actual electronic hardware for such a project, but hopefully my suggestion isn't too ridiculous/off topic.
Good luck with your build, if you make it someday please share, I'd really like to follow.
I'm thinking about something like this :
Sure it's not nearly as fancy, but it will let you gain some precious experience for cheap and it can be build rather quickly.
Sorry I can't help for your specific question regarding actual electronic hardware for such a project, but hopefully my suggestion isn't too ridiculous/off topic.
Good luck with your build, if you make it someday please share, I'd really like to follow.
cabinfourus
1 µW
I am planning to do the same.
cabinfourus
1 µW
Sorry to hear about your condition. I pray this comment finds you doing well.
The FAA does hold the upper hand, but you may have forgotten about a sport license. As long as you stay under 5 thousand feet and have no passengers, you are good to go.
offGridDownUnder
10 kW
If it's manned, it's not a drone, mate. 'Drone' means no pilot - the term does not mean anything else in this context - it has nothing to do with the form of it - it only means 'no pilot aboard'.
Are you planning a taxi that the passenger has no control over? Then there would be no pilot aboard.
That you did not know what 'drone' means give me serious pause about your understanding of what you are doing. You had better know control systems very, very well before you propose handing your life over to an automated flying machine. Their are events no pilot can recover from and you can't set up a machine to do what you don't yourself know how to do - no, the machines do not think for us.
The problem is that it must handle all the circumstances that you didn't think of. Read that over.
In VTOLs the prop and motor are 'out there' on 'arms'.
All the pics and videos of current VTOLs where the propellers are blowing air at 'arms' made of square (and even round) tubing make me cringe!
Square tube Cd: 2.05
Round Bar/pipe Cd: ~1.17 (1.75X lower than square)
Aero teardrop (wing) shape Cd: 0.045 (45.56X lower than square and 26X lower than round)
ie: If you are blowing air downward a something you want to keep up, (the arms) make that something as aero as possible to minimize the downward force and reduce the power and battery etc required. Then look for design assistance.
Most all these flying sled type YouTube videos are all about getting clicks/income.
The builders don't give AF about anything besides getting a couple of cm off the ground for 20 seconds, for clicks, and go for ease of construction every time.
They set a very BAD example for anyone serious about building a real VTOL.
The small drone makers don't do much better, if at all.
That's probably due to them being in the electrical motor battery field, with zero education/clue in aerodynamics.
IMHO; as soon as someone with a couple of brain cells in both fields of engineering builds a drone it's going to outperform everything else on the market, leaving the current drone builders wondering: "WhatTF just happened!? Is this some kind of magic!??"
All the pics and videos of current VTOLs where the propellers are blowing air at 'arms' made of square (and even round) tubing make me cringe!
Square tube Cd: 2.05
Round Bar/pipe Cd: ~1.17 (1.75X lower than square)
Aero teardrop (wing) shape Cd: 0.045 (45.56X lower than square and 26X lower than round)
ie: If you are blowing air downward a something you want to keep up, (the arms) make that something as aero as possible to minimize the downward force and reduce the power and battery etc required. Then look for design assistance.
Most all these flying sled type YouTube videos are all about getting clicks/income.
The builders don't give AF about anything besides getting a couple of cm off the ground for 20 seconds, for clicks, and go for ease of construction every time.
They set a very BAD example for anyone serious about building a real VTOL.
The small drone makers don't do much better, if at all.
That's probably due to them being in the electrical motor battery field, with zero education/clue in aerodynamics.
IMHO; as soon as someone with a couple of brain cells in both fields of engineering builds a drone it's going to outperform everything else on the market, leaving the current drone builders wondering: "WhatTF just happened!? Is this some kind of magic!??"
Chalo
100 TW
It's as if you think the only direction of airflow these things will ever see is axial. Maybe that's true, if you operate in the center of a closed still-air room and only move up and down.
When I worked for a startup space program, we hired consultants to design a thrust vectored VTOL test vehicle using turbojet engines, which they gimbaled for maneuvering and control. They didn't take into account the unwanted steering forces that resulted from gyro-precession in the turbine rotors, which turned out to be greater than the steering forces from tilting the jet flow. It wasn't controllable, and we had to take over engineering in-house and use another method.
This is like you not taking into account the unwanted control inputs that would result from airfoil spars having an angle of attack at odds with the rotor thrust. Maybe it's a resolvable issue, and maybe not. But somebody besides you has thought of it and decided against it.
Before you decide people who actually do things aren't as smart as you are, maybe you should try actually doing some things, instead of chatting nonsense you don't really understand, that you read someplace on t3h interwebz.
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Ah yes;
I'm blissfully ignorant of the swirl and tip vortices set up by propellers, right?
So... which way would all that undesirable wind direction be blowing once its passed a (necessary) aerofoil?
Would it be more in the direction you want your thrust, namely downward..?
Sure you can start optimizing the stator shape to better unswirl the wind you want blowing directly downward if you like.
I'll happily link references to research on the subject if you like, but that's a bit past the point I'm trying to make.
Nowhere do the gyroscopic forces, besides those already inherent in every VTOL drone already flying, enter the argument.
Not until you try and gimbal the motors and probably not even then due to their low rpm (and mass) vs jet turbines, when using propellers .
The "another method" your firm (obviously not you) resorted to was in fact directionally adjustable aerofoils or a directionally controllable 'nozzle' wasn't it..?
The vectoring done in most all VTOL drones is done by varying the rpm of the various motors/propellers surrounding them to alter the attitude of the aircraft as a whole relative to gravity, not by gimbals.
As for my doing stuff:
I am a white person in 'The New South Africa' and I do not live in the Eastern Cape area where the DA has won the elections but in an ANC governed area.
What that means is that:
Finding employment is nigh on impossible if you want to work for more than it costs getting to work.
Theft (of tools etc) is considered a redistribution of wealth and to be admired. Meaning there's no point in even opening a case with the police.
You want to see ME do things!? Man-O-man!
Give me half a chucking fance!! It'd be great to see you with your mouth hanging open but no noise issuing from it!
Chalo
100 TW
Maybe you should relocate to someplace else where most people don't have historically well-founded reasons to resent or detest you. But not near me; I remember.
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marvin78
10 kW
this is escalating nicely. Unneeded argument imo, doesn't matter I agree with one side over the other it has nothing to do with the topic?
Dui ni shuo de dui
100 kW
Well, of course, this is how Youtube works and everyone knows it.
Why would it be a bad example?
It should be taken as cheap and easy proofs of concept, doable by a single guy for an affordable budget in a few weeks/months in order to learn the basics and gain experience.
Anyone who built anything knows you have to start with something cheap and easy to work out the problems, then build the actual thing once you've learned enough. But I don't know, maybe you should show us what you've built in your shed so we can see for ourselves.
I'd really like to see the manned vtol vehicle you've built or at least designed if for some reason you haven't built anything, it would surely teach us a lot, please share the pictures here so we can discuss it.
This seems a bit arrogant.
Remember it's a DIY forum here, humble people building humble stuff.
No-no
I mean the store bought drones. Not DIY stuff.
DIY:
I get the ease of fabrication that comes from being able to just cut square tubing with a cutoff machine and have the joints insti weldable with no shaping required..
Then after initial tests; some Styrofoam and hot wire ingenuity would give you a better idea of the actual/achievable performance of the design. (If a bit of Styrofoam comes lose and falls off: so what)
I've built and repaired a number of gliders. (K7, ASW 20 etc. Some sort of canard winged, styrofoam covered kit plane a I don't recall the name of) but nothing recent I have photos of. This being The New South Africa; the gliding club's been defunct for years.
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