Ebike Initial Thoughts - buy new or buy a kit to convert an old bike?

[Madmarcus]

That looks like another interesting commercial bike. Slightly less nominal power and smaller battery than the Soltera 2 but similar price. Very stealthy too even if that isn't all that important to me. It's beginning to look like there a number of these from about $1000 - $1500 although from vendors that are mostly direct to consumers so hard to get a test ride.

It also shows why I started the thread as Google searching really doesn't show these bikes unless you already know the brand or model because the results are dominated by the big brands or generic "Best ebike that fits X single constaint" which aren't great for comparison. Now back to at least sketching out the mid drive build for roughly similar specs (probably a slightly bigger battery).

 

[ZeroEm]

That looks like another interesting commercial bike. Slightly less nominal power and smaller battery than the Soltera 2 but similar price. Very stealthy too even if that isn't all that important to me. It's beginning to look like there a number of these from about $1000 - $1500 although from vendors that are mostly direct to consumers so hard to get a test ride.

It also shows why I started the thread as Google searching really doesn't show these bikes unless you already know the brand or model because the results are dominated by the big brands or generic "Best ebike that fits X single constaint" which aren't great for comparison. Now back to at least sketching out the mid drive build for roughly similar specs (probably a slightly bigger battery).

Just want to point one thing out Direct Drive Hubs (DD) not powered will produce a drag. Unlike the mid drives or geared hubs.
light Ebike to carry into the house is not a Ebike to pull steep hills. Chose one.
I could not ride very far without assist. Can not push hard on the peddles for long. An adjustable assist is important. makes the ride more enjoyable. Most of my ebike riding is around 15mph. Mostly start out at 75w and normally end up at 150w when I get tired.
Would like to try a torque sensor. the harder you push the more the motor helps. I set up my pas backwards from most. the faster I peddle the less it helps me and the slower the more. This is my idea of it: when you hit a hill you slow down, don't want less power want more.

 

[stancecoke]

Now back to at least sketching out the mid drive build for roughly similar specs

There are some options for a DIY middrive:
- Most popular: Bafang BBSxx with no torquesensor
- TSDZ2/TSDZ8 with torquesensor
- ToSeven DM01/ 02 with torquesensor
- CYC for high power

I don't like middrives, as they are noisy and my BionX IGH3 DD pushed me up any slope so far. Of course, on very steep and long ascents, the middrive has it's advantage, but only there....

 

[Madmarcus]

There are some options for a DIY middrive:

- TSDZ2/TSDZ8 with torquesensor
- ToSeven DM01/ 02 with torquesensor

I'm accepting the negative view of mid drive that was offered but I have a specific question on the two options I've quoted.

The TSDZ2/2b/8 and the DM02 have all had various positive and negative reviews over time. Is there any current consensus on their build quality (including the software/controller)?

 

[stancecoke]

TSDZ2

The TSDZ2/8 has a weak torquesensor, that often breaks, spare parts are available, but it's not reliable.

DM02

The torquesensor of the DM02 uses a different principle. I don't know, if it's more reliable, there are just very few user reports about the To7 motors.

regards
stancecoke

 

[classicalgas]

An interesting thing, to me at least, is that I've never driven a manual car (manual tractors yes).



I wonder if I have an unusual use case for an ebike in that I want to bike for exercise but would like the ability to be slightly faster and able to climb steeper or longer hills. I'm looking for an ebike that is as close as possible to a standard pedal bike because I do like responding to differing conditions through changing my pedaling and changing gears.

One system I haven't mentioned in this thread is that I almost like the Kepler friction drive mentioned on this site for being light and possibly able to be set up to only be engaged when you need it. That way I could have a small battery pack (light) and only engage the friction drive when I wanted to power up a hill but otherwise treat the bike as a standard bike. If only it didn't rub on the tire!

I have about a half dozen e-bikes at this point, and have sold about that many more. Bout half and half factory e-bike bought used, and half conversions I did, a mix of hub motors and mid drives. (I'm a fairly fit 69 years old)

Off all the bikes I've owned, the torque sensing mid drives with IGHs are the ones I like the best, they have the most "bionic legs/fountain of youth" feel to them. With a single speed quality chain, drive train maintenance is almost nonexistent (unless you put thousands of miles on them in a year)

A couple of my mid drives use the TSDZ2B, and I'm happy with them. I wouldn't recommend them if you jump, or stomp on your pedals, or want to go 35mph for extended periods, but otherwise, they seem fine, and offer a very transparent riding experience. One of those uses Ryobi yard tool batteries, which lets me take along just enough power for the ride planned, and hot swap charged batteries as needed. That bike is an old steel frame full suspension mountain bike, and the whole bike, complete, has less than $800 in it. It wouldn't make sense if you had to buy the ryobi batteries and charger, but if you already have cordless yard tools, it's a cheap option. You could probably find an old TREK steel frame MTB that would accept the Tongsheng mid drive easily, and get it on the road for $500, but....

Right now, used E-bikes are selling really cheap (though the really good old mid drive 24v ebikes from the 2000's seem to have all been scrapped) If you can wait until fall and keep an eye on craiglist, you can find legacy brand E-bikes in good shape for $750 or under. I just bought a cannondale neo allroad speed, that sold for over two grand, only two years old, for $500. It's seen hard use, paint chips and needed a good cleaning and tuneup, but it's the top of the line, 750 watt front suspension bike on 26"x2.6" tires. It has cadence sensing, but a pretty good version of that system. I wouldn't buy anything too old that uses proprietary systems...no Bionex, no old Chinese folders, or fat tire anything.

 

[Madmarcus]

but....

Right now, used E-bikes are selling really cheap

Interesting. I wasn't seeing that in the spring but, as you point out, it might be a season issue. Since I'm probably going to wait until the fall to do any conversion I'll keep my eye out.

 

[99t4]

it might be a season issue.

Depends on your local climate and culture. In general, we seem to be in a bike glut, probably a response to the high demand during Covid times, which has since flattened out.

 

[raylo32]

TSDZ2, CYC Photon, Bafangs, and the DMs are NOT noisy. The CYC X1 and Stealth are noisy. An area where mid drives are better than hubs is when you need to fix a flat tire or do other wheel related maintenance. Unless you have some sort of power cable disconnect. And mid drives don't mess up your weight balance and handling.

I don't like middrives, as they are noisy and my BionX IGH3 DD pushed me up any slope so far. Of course, on very steep and long ascents, the middrive has it's advantage, but only there....

 

[dgc]

I ride a lightweight mullet e-bike which has a TSDZ2 mid drive with a 36V 10ah battery which weights around 18kgs plus me at 63.5kgs, I cover 20 miles on a full charge or 30 miles if I watch it. I ride mostly on the flat with a couple of hill climbs, I do have a grey 29er with a 48V mid-drive with a similar battery and again is around 18kgs. I have had no problems with the Tongsheng mid-drives covering over 2500 mile on the one I ride most of the time.

 

[slaphappygamer]

I'd love to get some test riding in but so far I haven't found a good bike shop especially since I want to try out some things that seem slightly less common as well as a comparing like with like (similar performance cadence PAS with torque PAS for example).

I'd especially like to try the Aventon Soltera 2 that seems to be a fairly light torque sensing rear hub. For a slightly higher price the Optibike Argon is similar but more powerful. Some of that is due to smaller batteries but I think I can make that work

Another great way to test ride bikes is to rent one. Not just at a bike shop. My wife (she is so smart) found a tourist-type bike rental shop. It was near a long paved multi-use path. We rented two different style ebikes. They were both radpowerbikes. One was the radrunner, which is a moped style bike and the other was the radcity, a more traditional style bike. Through riding both of these (we switched bikes half way through the excursion), I was able to identify what features I wanted in an ebike.

Perhaps there is a rental shop like this in your area? We rented the bikes for 2 hours and that was enough time to decide what I wanted in an ebike. Though, knowing what I know now, I would convert a bike. Converting a bike might be (a little) more expensive, but you'll have more "command" over the bike's characteristics.

I have a Ride1Up ebike and they are having a sale now. You might be interested in their roadster. It's a 36v gravel style bike that weighs about 40lbs. I bought a Ride1Up 700 Series (no longer made) about 4 years ago. Even though I've replaced all the electronics (except the motor and battery), it has been a solid bike. There was no issue that prompted me to replace the electronics, I just like to learn how things work and make the things I own work better for me and at their full potential.

 

[dgc]

We have Lime bikes for hire over here, only problem they seem to weight a ton leading to "Lime bike leg" as they fall over and break rider's legs, you find them "parked" everywhere, as well as on the pavement, in the hedge, in a ditch, in the river etc etc.

 

[Madmarcus]

We have Lime bikes for hire over here, only problem they seem to weight a ton

We have a similar setup around here. I'm sure I'll try one this summer but they do weight a ton which is not the feel I am thinking of if I do a conversion.

 

[classicalgas]

We have a similar setup around here. I'm sure I'll try one this summer but they do weight a ton which is not the feel I am thinking of if I do a conversion.

I just picked up a steel frame, full suspension, 90's mountain bike, in good running and cosmetic shape, for $200. It's a Giant, with the rear shock mounted high in a large frame triangle...I could fit a massive battery in it easily If I wanted to.

Only 2-3 inches of suspension travel front and rear, but that's plenty for a road bike.

The question is ...do I put on a pair of 350W geared hub motors I have, already laced into 26" wheels, and drive them with separate Ryobi "40v" yard tool batteries? Or splurge on a TSDZ2B...they've gone up in price since I bought my last one.

Stick with rim brakes (retro Avid billet canti's) or fit a disk brake adapter at the rear and swap out for a slightly newer fork with disk tabs?

Dirt cheap and redundant drive, or tried and true "bionic legs"?

 

[Chalo]

I could fit a massive battery in it easily If I wanted to.

No need for more than 2X the battery that gives you your planned range.

Only 2-3 inches of suspension travel front and rear, but that's plenty for a road bike.

Zero inches is plenty for a road bike.

The question is ...do I put on a pair of 350W geared hub motors I have, already laced into 26" wheels, and drive them with separate Ryobi "40v" yard tool batteries?

Sure. You have them, that works, it's got pep but not too much top speed.

Or splurge on a TSDZ2B...they've gone up in price since I bought my last one.

No. Unless you want to fix your busted bike and hinky fault-prone mid drive more than you want to ride.

Stick with rim brakes (retro Avid billet canti's)

Yes. Stainless steel slick cables, Kool Stop pads, correct setup, and no disc anywhere will outperform them.

or fit a disk brake adapter at the rear and swap out for a slightly newer fork with disk tabs?

That's not the same, and not as good as, regular discs on regular disc tabs. And those aren't any better than rim brakes even in the best case.

 

[classicalgas]

Zero inches of suspension is not acceptable on a road bike on my local roads. Even with tires in the two inch width range. I weigh half what you do, maybe that's the difference?

I've been happy for several hundred miles (each) of riding on my current mid drives. A TSDZ2B driving a single speed chain and a Sturmey three speed IGH is as trouble free a drive as any hub motor of equivalent peak torque combined with a derailleur.

The only reasons I'd even considering rim brakes are.... this bike will never see rain, is old enough to be funky/retro, probably won't see two hundred miles a year (so keeping the rims straight wont a problem) and the wheels I have with geared hubs in them are rim brake capable. If even one of those conditions didn't exist, disks would be the clear choice.

Your views on disk brakes on bicycles are well known, and most knowledgeable people disagree with you.

The rear disk adapter I'm looking at is a copy of what Hope sold back in the day. I expect it will work fine.

 

[Chalo]

Zero inches of suspension is not acceptable on a road bike on my local roads. Even with tires in the two inch width range. I weigh half what you do, maybe that's the difference?

Wrong tire pressure? Lack of resolve? My local bike lanes seem to have been intentionally horked up to discourage their use, but I still ride them at speed on bikes with zero inches of travel. That's one of the things that makes you an actual cyclist in today's context.

For the last few days, I've been doing a housesit at a place 12 horrible hostile miles from where I normally sleep. Every kind of institutional road design hostility is in evidence. But both my wife and I traverse the distance without suspension, and without running slowly to accommodate.

I've been happy for several hundred miles (each) of riding on my current mid drives. A TSDZ2B driving a single speed chain and a Sturmey three speed IGH is as trouble free a drive as any hub motor of equivalent peak torque combined with a derailleur.

I'm a bike mechanic who spent a long time on BBS02. You can't convince me that I didn't experience what I experienced. Mid drives destroy bikes-- by design in the case of OEM mid drives.

The only reasons I'd even considering rim brakes are.... this bike will never see rain, is old enough to be funky/retro, probably won't see two hundred miles a year (so keeping the rims straight wont a problem) and the wheels I have with geared hubs in them are rim brake capable.

You're uninformed, and probably also a weenie in terms of setting up your stuff. Most folks who say discs are always better have never tried to fix their rim brakes. They compare dilapidated cheap AF OEM rim brakes to professionally installed discs and decide their preconceptions were correct.

If even one of those conditions didn't exist, disks would be the clear choice.

I have both, and they're not the clear choice unless you want over 2.5" tires, or you want to swap different wheel sizes.

 

[dgc]

Hydraulic disc brakes all the time.

 

[Chalo]

Hydraulic disc brakes all the time.

I've never had a cable brake ruin its pads because a cable touched them, or fail because the cable leaked out.

Hydraulic anything on a bicycle is for motor vehicle worshippers. It imposes problems without addressing any.

 

[docw009]

My rationale for rim brakes was that they worked well at our usual riding speeds of 12-14 mph. That argument gets tested when you go to hill country and find yourself coasting downhill at 28 mph, but the brakes did their job,

Where I like the disks is that it's faster to pull a wheel, especially if the bike has wide tires where the rim calipers won't open far enough unless I remove a pad, cheaper.

Aside from the hubmotor which already has disk fittings. it's more expense to replace hubs with disk compatible units. My cheap Walmart fat tire bike came with 4" wide rim brakes, which didn't stop at all. I bought a disk compatible fork and front wheel. I used a Bafang hub motor on the rear, and a bikeberry adapter, which reqired a lot of machining. Cut a slot to match the droput and bolted it to the frame,

The blue adapter probably works OK on a regular bike, It clamps onto the dropout, When used with a motor, a slot to match the dropout is needed, and then you need to find some places to screw it to the frame. I've used this on a front drive bike, because I couldn't find a fork with caliper tabs that fit, and also on a rear drive bike. I'm retired, with plenty of time to tinker.

 

[Chalo]

My observation as a mechanic is that disc adapters are usually bent when I see them, and causing the rotor to rub hard.

 

[dgc]

I will still stick with hydraulic disc brakes on my e-bikes using180mm front and 160mm rear discs, did use Shimano brakes but now use Clarks HD-M3000 Plus brakes which are designed for use on e-bikes as they have sensors built in.

 

[dgc]

Yep, tend to agree brake disc adapters never do fit properly, more hazard than a help, unless purposely made for the specific frame.

 

[classicalgas]

Wrong tire pressure? Lack of resolve? My local bike lanes seem to have been intentionally horked up to discourage their use, but I still ride them at speed on bikes with zero inches of travel. That's one of the things that makes you an actual cyclist in today's context.

For the last few days, I've been doing a housesit at a place 12 horrible hostile miles from where I normally sleep. Every kind of institutional road design hostility is in evidence. But both my wife and I traverse the distance without suspension, and without running slowly to accommodate.



I'm a bike mechanic who spent a long time on BBS02. You can't convince me that I didn't experience what I experienced. Mid drives destroy bikes-- by design in the case of OEM mid drives.


You're uninformed, and probably also a weenie in terms of setting up your stuff. Most folks who say discs are always better have never tried to fix their rim brakes. They compare dilapidated cheap AF OEM rim brakes to professionally installed discs and decide their preconceptions were correct.



I have both, and they're not the clear choice unless you want over 2.5" tires, or you want to swap different wheel sizes.

I've been riding and maintaining bikes for well over a half a century. One of the things I've learned is that new ideas can actually benefit me, if I don't pretend that they aren't useful.

I absolutely can set up rim brakes to brake well, I learned on side pulls as a teenager in the late sixtiess ( and I've tried everything that's come out since) Disks beat rim brakes, all things considered, for all but special cases. I've owned something over fifty bikes over the decades, with every type of braking system ( other than band brakes and stirrup brakes) No shop has ever worked on one of my bikes, and my criteria for "good brakes" is "Can I do a stoppie with these on clean dry pavement?"

"Resolve"?!! .... ROFLMFAO!... Riding a bike shouldn't require "resolve". I don't need to ride a bike a anymore (though I commuted thirty miles a day on one, for years) So anything that makes riding for fun , more fun ( like a motor, disk brakes, more upright (or a trike) a fairing, suspension... or reduces maintenance hassles ( I've got six electric two wheelers in the fleet right now) is worthwhile.

Did a disk brake hurt you?

 

[classicalgas]

Yep, tend to agree brake disc adapters never do fit properly, more hazard than a help, unless purposely made for the specific frame.

This is the rear disk adapter I'm considering, it loads the canti brake bridge, like the vintage Hope unit it copies.

Pardon Our Interruption...

It's too easy to find forks with factory caliper mounts to be worth putting an adapter on one.