2016 GNG EXTREME BELT MID DRIVE BUILD. PROS & CONS

[Ecyclist]

Yeah, I have to see if I can use the San Clemente Canyon trail to work with.
If I can , there are a lot of "connectors" to the canyons of Clairemont and
Tecolote and I would imagine a via through Sorrento Valley to Penesquitos as well.
I also ,deal with advanced chronology along with a "not so new" knee
and that's why I am looking into electric bicycles as an entertaining
outdoor sport.
I still want to check out your bike though.

Bob, e-bikes are great. They give you boost when you need it. And I'm talking not only an electro-mechanical boost. :lol:
If you want to see or take my bike for a short spin just PM me and we will work out the details.

 

[Bob K]

I just wanted to give a big thanks to Ecyclist for demonstrating his bike to me.
Your attention to detail is just outstanding ! Your hot tip on taking apart the freewheels and
tightening up the shim pack is just great. Everyone should take a second look at your little
wiring box behind the controller. That is THE cleanest wiring I have ever seen.
And your battery mounting straps are so professional looking.
All around great build, and so quiet. Just a slight bit of belt sound
but still very quiet.
Thanks .

 

[Ecyclist]

A LITTLE UPDATE.
The kit is running with no problems, but I decided to do a little upgrade and swap small 16T motor pulley for 20T.
The RPM increased by 25% and, now, using smaller chain ring makes sense. The kit is running supper quiet - probably because I bored the hole concentric to pitch diameter of the pulley. Because of the better belt pulley engagement, the larger small pulley will extend the belt life as well. I still have enough distance to adjust the belt preload. Surprisingly, I didn't have to shorten the chain, but the chain tensioner is now very close to the small secondary drive sprocket. I will make a little longer tensioner arm to remedy that. The speed on flat increased from 26 to 31 mph.

 

[Overclocker]

A LITTLE UPDATE.
The kit is running with no problems, but I decided to do a little upgrade and swap small 16T motor pulley for 20T.
The RPM increased by 25% and, now, using smaller chain ring makes sense. The kit is running supper quiet - probably because I bored the hole concentric to pitch diameter of the pulley. Because of the better belt pulley engagement, the larger small pulley will extend the belt life as well. I still have enough distance to adjust the belt preload. Surprisingly, I didn't have to shorten the chain, but the chain tensioner is now very close to the small secondary drive sprocket. I will make a little longer tensioner arm to remedy that. The speed on flat increased from 26 to 31 mph.

nice! the recommendation in that long GNG thread was to use a motor pulley w/ at least 18T

 

[jk1]

Is this GNG motor the exact same one as the LR small block and the Cyclone 3000w ? they look very similar.

But one difference i notice in the first photo is the output bearing is on the outside of the motor on the GNG whearas its on the inside of the C3000w motors? so these are a little bit wider to use.

The internals look very similar between all of them, i wounder who makes them all in CHina ?

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=1400

Apart from that they look similar so similar power ratings i would assume ? whats the most power anyone has run with one of these at 72v ?

 

[robocam]

Yeah, their insides seem very similar. Here's the inside of my Cyclone.

Here's Ecyclist's (the OP) picture of his GNG from page 1.

Here is a picture of the Cyclone with the gearbox removed.

I also have GNG's 2015 belt-driven mid drive, and when I sent it 40 amps at 52V, it tore the 20mm belt very quickly during a climb.

Because of that, I don't think a 25mm belt is wide enough. Another user snapped a belt on his LightningRods small block mid drive during a climb.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=1325#p1217416

The Cyclone 3000 feels significantly more powerful than the 2015 GNG at the same voltage and current, and it's also much quieter. Does anyone know if the motor on the 2016 GNG is different than the one in the 2015 GNG? I don't know about the GNG, but the Cyclone can handle 6500 watts. Gman sends 90 amps at 72V to his Cyclone 3000.

Is this GNG motor the exact same one as the LR small block and the Cyclone 3000w ? they look very similar.

But one difference i notice in the first photo is the output bearing is on the outside of the motor on the GNG whearas its on the inside of the C3000w motors? so these are a little bit wider to use.

The internals look very similar between all of them, i wounder who makes them all in CHina ?

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=1400

Apart from that they look similar so similar power ratings i would assume ? whats the most power anyone has run with one of these at 72v ?

 

[Ecyclist]

The problem with most of belt reducers is the reduction ratio people try to squeeze out of them. My GNG kit originally was using 16T to 80T pulleys spaced 4.5" apart. According to this website calculator http://www.bbman.com/belt-length-calculator/ only 5 teeth of the small pulley were engaged with this setup. This is not recommended. Minimum recommended engagement is 6. With 20T pulley I have now 7 teeth working. Also the belt preload and how concentric both pulleys are running will make big difference.

ROBOCAM, are you using CA3 on your 2015 GNG kit? Would you be so kind and post your settings?

Santa Claus came earlier to San Diego.

 

[robocam]

I see that you're using the GNG kit yourself. Can you post your CA settings so I can try them on my kit? Thank you in advance. Let me know if you have more questions.

Sorry about the delay in replying! I purchased the 2015 GNG belt mid drive for $481 (to anyone considering it, don't buy it, it's not worth it - the crankset freewheel failed immediately because it's poorly designed, and they wanted me to pay for the part!) last year, and I had to spend another $179 to buy a crankset from Cyclone. But after I got the kinks out, it was working fine. Then I decided to browse the internet on ebikes, and somehow I came across the Cyclone 3000. After reading gman's posts raving about the kit, I couldn't help but to buy it to try it. Oh my goodness it was so much more powerful! I was hooked. Anyway, yeah I had the GNG on my bike temporarily as I was fixing my Cyclone (it got wet and needed new hall sensors). I have my Cyclone back on now, and it is so much more powerful, smoother, and quieter (I don't like drawing attention to myself when on the trails).

I didn't really use the Cycle Analyst to do anything other than limit the current. What kind of settings were you interested in? When I was running the GNG at 43 amps (~2400 watts), I was like, "This is great!" but when the belt snapped, I was reminded of why I chose the Cyclone with its internal gearbox. One of the reasons I chose it was so that I wouldn't have to deal with broken belts. Another benefit is that replacement parts (freewheels, gears, sprockets, etc.) are available from many stores (Luna Cycle, Cyclone, Sick Bike Parts, etc.).

But I'm not giving up on it just yet. I'm building another ebike, and I plan to put the GNG on it to help me keep up with my friends when we hit the trails. I'm going to use it with the stock 21A controller to preserve the belt.

I'm really curious about your planetary gearbox. Where exactly does it mount to replace the belt?

 

[robocam]

Is this to prevent the teeth on the belt from wearing off as quickly? Mine just snapped. The teeth were fine. The preload was very light. It was light enough for me to install the new belt without loosening the tensioner. Also keep in mind that on the 2015 and prior versions, GNG used an idler pulley to increase the wrap around the motor pulley.

Why do they use belts anyway? They take up so much space. I assume it's to reduce noise, but the GNG is louder than the Cyclone. I kind of wish I had the chain version now. Chain noise can't be that bad.

The problem with most of belt reducers is the reduction ratio people try to squeeze out of them. My GNG kit originally was using 16T to 80T pulleys spaced 4.5" apart. According to this website calculator http://www.bbman.com/belt-length-calculator/ only 5 teeth of the small pulley were engaged with this setup. This is not recommended. Minimum recommended engagement is 6. With 20T pulley I have now 7 teeth working. Also the belt preload and how concentric both pulleys are running will make big difference.

ROBOCAM, are you using CA3 on your 2015 GNG kit? Would you be so kind and post your settings?

Santa Claus came earlier to San Diego.

 

[Ecyclist]

I see that you're using the GNG kit yourself. Can you post your CA settings so I can try them on my kit? Thank you in advance. Let me know if you have more questions.

Sorry about the delay in replying! I purchased the 2015 GNG belt mid drive for $481 (to anyone considering it, don't buy it, it's not worth it - the crankset freewheel failed immediately because it's poorly designed, and they wanted me to pay for the part!) last year, and I had to spend another $179 to buy a crankset from Cyclone. But after I got the kinks out, it was working fine. Then I decided to browse the internet on ebikes, and somehow I came across the Cyclone 3000. After reading gman's posts raving about the kit, I couldn't help but to buy it to try it. Oh my goodness it was so much more powerful! I was hooked. Anyway, yeah I had the GNG on my bike temporarily as I was fixing my Cyclone (it got wet and needed new hall sensors). I have my Cyclone back on now, and it is so much more powerful, smoother, and quieter (I don't like drawing attention to myself when on the trails).

I didn't really use the Cycle Analyst to do anything other than limit the current. What kind of settings were you interested in? When I was running the GNG at 43 amps (~2400 watts), I was like, "This is great!" but when the belt snapped, I was reminded of why I chose the Cyclone with its internal gearbox. One of the reasons I chose it was so that I wouldn't have to deal with broken belts. Another benefit is that replacement parts (freewheels, gears, sprockets, etc.) are available from many stores (Luna Cycle, Cyclone, Sick Bike Parts, etc.).

But I'm not giving up on it just yet. I'm building another ebike, and I plan to put the GNG on it to help me keep up with my friends when we hit the trails. I'm going to use it with the stock 21A controller to preserve the belt.

I'm really curious about your planetary gearbox. Where exactly does it mount to replace the belt?

I'm planning on using the planetary gearbox as a reducer and jackshaft all in one. I just bought an old GNG kit with first stage chain drive. Now I understand why GNG kit users are not happy. It looks like the motor from that kit is OK, and I will be able to use it with my gearbox. I might connect them serial (in line) or parallel via belt and two pulleys. I will, most likely, go with the second option and use the 20T and 24T pulleys. This way, I will be able to swap them to get different reduction ratio. On that GNG kit, the first stage chain reduction was as noisy as two skeletons having sex on the corrugated metal roof. Well, maybe not that noisy, but you get what I mean :lol: . First stage chain drive with all that RPM is no go for me.

I'm happy with the way CA3 controls the current, but my GRIN quarter twist throttle is not working the way I hoped it would.
It has a second or so delay while accelerating and decelerating. Also, first 1/4 of quarter twist throttle provides the whole acceleration.
I assume that all this can be changed with CA settings. I will appreciate any suggestions.

 

[Ecyclist]

So I decided to build a new battery pack. I really wanted the best batteries and I don't trust stuff from China. I think that the only guarantied way to get high quality batteries is to buy a Tesla module. I pulled the trigger and bought a module on eBay. It was from a crushed Tesla and I paid $470 including shipping. 444 batteries for $470 sounds like a good deal. Seller advertised 75% of the pack to be OK. I got it today. I measured voltage of the pack and it was only 8V. I checked separate batteries but still connected and got only about 0.8V. I was bummed, bud decided to rip off all connectors and measure the voltage of separate batteries.

Fortunately, the undamaged batteries measure 3.57V. So I guess BMS saved most of the batteries. Tomorrow I will get to it and disassemble the whole pack.
I'm hoping for at least 200 good ones.

Ain't she a beaut?

 

[izeman]

that's really some risk. i hope you can save a lot of those batteries. if they are ok, you can make a great battery pack from them.

 

[robocam]

Hi, sorry I've been meaning to look at my CA to get the exact steps but I haven't gotten around to it yet because I've been studying for some exams. Have you tried adjusting the throttle voltage settings in your CA? See the "Setup Throt In" section.

http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/cycle-analyst-3.html

When you look at the throttle indicator on your CA, does turning your throttle 1/4 of a turn cause it to go almost all the way up? If it does, adjust the max throttle voltage. Let me know if that works or not.

BTW, did you consider buying a battery from Luna Cycle? I bought one from them, and I love it. What method are you using to join the cells together? If you're welding, what welder are you using? I've been trying to find a good way to make a pack.

...my GRIN quarter twist throttle is not working the way I hoped it would.
It has a second or so delay while accelerating and decelerating. Also, first 1/4 of quarter twist throttle provides the whole acceleration.
I assume that all this can be changed with CA settings. I will appreciate any suggestions.

 

[Ecyclist]

Hi, sorry I've been meaning to look at my CA to get the exact steps but I haven't gotten around to it yet because I've been studying for some exams. Have you tried adjusting the throttle voltage settings in your CA? See the "Setup Throt In" section.

http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/cycle-analyst-3.html

When you look at the throttle indicator on your CA, does turning your throttle 1/4 of a turn cause it to go almost all the way up? If it does, adjust the max throttle voltage. Let me know if that works or not.

BTW, did you consider buying a battery from Luna Cycle? I bought one from them, and I love it. What method are you using to join the cells together? If you're welding, what welder are you using? I've been trying to find a good way to make a pack.

...my GRIN quarter twist throttle is not working the way I hoped it would.
It has a second or so delay while accelerating and decelerating. Also, first 1/4 of quarter twist throttle provides the whole acceleration.
I assume that all this can be changed with CA settings. I will appreciate any suggestions.

Thank you for the tip. I will change the throttle max voltage and report back.
I bought the new carbon shark pack battery from Luna and it is OK, but I think that my new pack will be better. Also, I'm planning to place batteries, BMS and motor controller in a single case made of aluminum. My goal is to have a very clean looking e-bike. I will make the case with slots so it can be opened and closed for ventilation and used as a radiator.
I don't have a welder yet, but I will get one soon. I bought the iMAX B6-AC B6AC battery charger / tester and 4x5 cell spacers.

At this point, I'm putting everything on the back burner and going for a couple weeks road trip around the six southwestern states.

 

[amberwolf]

At this point, I'm putting everything on the back burner and going for a couple weeks road trip around the six southwestern states.

If you pass thru Phoenix, AZ, in the Metrocenter area (on I-17), you can come try out CrazyBike2 and/or SB Cruiser.

 

[Ecyclist]

At this point, I'm putting everything on the back burner and going for a couple weeks road trip around the six southwestern states.

If you pass thru Phoenix, AZ, in the Metrocenter area (on I-17), you can come try out CrazyBike2 and/or SB Cruiser.

Thanks for the invite.
Unfortunately my first waypoint is Prescott so I will miss Phoenix by about 100 miles.

 

[Ecyclist]

This is my last update on my first install. Not much to report really. I made over 2k miles on it and the kit is running really well, but you have to keep in mind that I put a lot of love into it. Luna battery and CA3 provide adequate energy and smooth operation.
I've been playing with my second build with some good results, and in a few weeks I will start a new thread about that.
I was planning on using GNG motor and connect it to my own design transmission, but the used motor I bought is overheating and is not good. Transmission, on the other hand, is a OK.
That was actually not bad news because, in the process of finding a suitable motor, I "discovered" outrunners and VESC controllers. This twin package with 2008 Giant Trace X0 and Rohloff 500/14 speedhub should make for a very streamlined set-up. I'm also going to build my own battery pack out of 18650 Tesla batteries. Ambitious but doable, I think. Time will tell. 8)

 

[skyungjae]

I had thought about getting the same kit having worked on several GNG builds myself. Now I'm dabbling in hub motors.

 

[Ecyclist]

I had thought about getting the same kit having worked on several GNG builds myself. Now I'm dabbling in hub motors.

Hub motors are great for commuting, but for climbing hills and 4 foot drops mid drives are the way to go.

 

[skyungjae]

I had thought about getting the same kit having worked on several GNG builds myself. Now I'm dabbling in hub motors.

Hub motors are great for commuting, but for climbing hills and 4 foot drops mid drives are the way to go.

Multi-speed drivetrains just seem a bit fragile for high power builds. My GNG Stink-E was definitely a beast when it came to climbing, jumps, etc..., but it always felt/sounded like it was at it's limit when I'd romp on it.

I'm having a lot of fun with my clonebix. It's nice twisting the throttle from a stop and knowing nothing is going to break.

Overheating on climbs sucks though. :|

 

[Ecyclist]

I had thought about getting the same kit having worked on several GNG builds myself. Now I'm dabbling in hub motors.

Hub motors are great for commuting, but for climbing hills and 4 foot drops mid drives are the way to go.

Multi-speed drivetrains just seem a bit fragile for high power builds. My GNG Stink-E was definitely a beast when it came to climbing, jumps, etc..., but it always felt/sounded like it was at it's limit when I'd romp on it.

I'm having a lot of fun with my clonebix. It's nice twisting the throttle from a stop and knowing nothing is going to break.

Overheating on climbs sucks though. :|

The key to a trouble free running mid drive is a solid set-up and use of a torque controlling device. I applied these two rules and my rig is running flawlessly. The bike is doing 30 mph on flat and on the low gear climes steepest hill I manage to be on. Of course I would prefer for the kit to be much smaller and able to run without CA3. I hope that I will achieve that with my second build.