Acid test - Mountain Climb- 3220 motor hv160

[Whiplash]

This is the EXACT reason I am building my drives. The fact that my little Turningy can do what it does PROVES without a shadow of a doubt that for this type of riding and off road, you need selectable gears. I have less than 1/5 of your power but yet I can make a 2000' climb @ nearly 30mph without my motor even breaking a sweat. I just run in the gear the motor is loaded the least by watching the amp load on my C.A. the motor NEVER gets too hot to hold my hand on it so I know its safe...

 

[jag]

I didn't find gearing info in your thread. Like Miles said this is crucial. Looking at the pics I was guessing you have an 80tooth rear, I'm assuming a 13 tooth on the jackshaft, and a 3:1 belt giving 18:1 total reduction. This seems suitable for your goal of going 70km/h or so (corresponds to just over 10,000 rpm on the motor.

Edit: Forgot to mention all below is calculated with the wife assumption: 100kg total bike + wife.
Calculations are from formulas in the "badnews" thread http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19681&p=289416#p289416 (time seems to have wrangled some figs, others are fine)
For your dual motor I just "created" a longer motor by scaling the values I measured from my Astro 8150 by 1.5 (8150 to 3220 difference in stator length) and 2 (two motors instead of one). This of course assumes perfect power sharing. See below. The motor data line I used in the script from the above link is

k = 1.5*2*18*0.048;  A0=1.5*2*18*0.048; Rmotor = 2*1.5*0.040; motor = '2x3220 5T, 1:18gear';

With that gearing guess I get the following figures for your dual 3220 going up a 10% hill at 10, 20,.., 70km/h:
Ptot =

404.89 769.18 1239.27 1865.32 2698.98 3793.49 5203.58

octave:63> Ploss
Ploss =

102.87 118.85 148.04 194.29 262.98 361.02 496.88

So at 60-70km/h there should be about 200 to 250W dissipated heat per motor. At this power cooling fins on the motors would be a good idea.

At 30km/h (your wife's actual speed) we get just 148/2 = 74W per motor. They should not break from that amount of heat.

You won't have perfect load sharing by just paralleling two controllers and motors that were not designed with load sharing in mind, so a temp discrepancy is expected. I assume you mean 200 and 270F (not C). Seems like motors should survive this normally.

Another way to interpret your data is that you used 8.7Ah at (again guessing) 50V so 435Wh over 1/3h (7 miles at 22mph). That is just a 1300W average input power to the dual motor system. Again with any decent gearing (like the 18:1 I assumed) the Astros should tolerate that. With decent gearing they run about 90% efficiency, so 130W/2= 65W dissipated heat per motor, similar to the above calculated figure.

So there has been no obvious source of error exposed in this thread yet.

I smoked one of the 3220's at the 7 mile mark...i had climbed 2500 feet and averaged 22mph on 5-8 percent grade. I burned a total of 8.67 amp hours which isnt bad considering i was climbing the entire time. I held back a lot on the speed since this was test run and didnt want to smoke on a warm up lap..oh well for that.

The trike is geared for 40mph....seems way low enough for 2 3220's.

These are dual 3220's delta motors 6 turn.

I used a thermometer and spot tested the temperature of the 3220 cases on the way up.

They went right up to 170 at the beginning of the ride and hovered there through every spot check.

Before the motor blew the grade turned a bit steeper. when i measured temperatures after the motor blew it was 270 degrees for the smoked motor and 205 degrees for the other.

The hv160 controllers which i have attached to a giant heat sink never reached over 110 degrees. This suprised me because reading up on ES the castle controller is the weak spot in this configuration...the controllers were fine in this case.

I have the option of running the same hill tomorrow with one motor and see if it was a defective motor that shot me down...i am thinking about it. Matt has recommended i dont do it unless i gear the trike down to 20mph which i could not stomach.

I want to come up with a 3220 configuration that can climb mount diablo which is i figure half of what pikes peak is.

I am lost on whether i should try again tomorrow with the same gearing with a single 3220 motor instead of 2....

 

[drewjet]

I imagine off-road is quite challenging for setting astro up properly. You get plenty of low speed riding / some high speed riding on better quality firetracks and roads, steep hills, muddy terrain where the back wheel spins, get stuck while climbing a steep hill and trying to start up again.
+ the fun factor which is doing some crazy sh*t stuff

Plenty of vibration, mud, water, dust, little rocks around.

i have a 3220 in a mountain bike, see thread in my sig. I have it geared for 30 MPH top speed on the road. it barely gets warm offroading. That said I am in Florida so no large hills to be climbing, I just mostly do single track stuff.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi Eric,

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=16739&p=269152#p269152
Pictures are currently missing:

So behold the GHETTO BLASTER

Recycled heater out of a similar bug
Inlet facing forward to suck up that 60mph wind
Dual outlets blasting into either side of the motor

Results?

F'ing awesome - that is what the result is. Those following the thread will know that i used to have a long can 6" motor with tons of torque and now I am running this tiny little go-kart / motorcycle motor and it really is being stressed. I have been keeping the average loading under 12KW and it has worked out .... but I really had to be conscientious. With this new mod I was able to run 32KW for 3 minutes straight and the brushes only got up to 100C and the can was hardly warm to the touch. In comparison - without the blower I was seeing upward of 150C on the brushes and the can was untouchable.

I declare at this point... Anyone who does not force cool their large format motor must be retarded
Cost me about $20 for the blower and parts.
Took my only 20 minutes to install everything...

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=16739&p=269825#p269825

Actually you cant really even hear it. Just a slight hum from inside the cabin.

Here is a note: If you want to try this attention must be paid to how the blower is set up. There is a weird thing that happens with blowers like this... if you apply too much back-pressure at a certain point it just stops pushing air - back off a little and the CFM go through the roof. I am sure Luke could explain why this is - but for a "flow retard" such as myself I just know that playing with the mounting setup while monitoring the actual airflow through the motor I found a sweet spot. The sweet spot was *not* and airtight seal.

This was just my $15 used VW blower though... If you purchase a pressure rated fan then it is all about sealing it up.

 

[recumpence]

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/posting.php?mode=quote&f=28&p=456637

Matt

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/posting.php?mode=quote&f=28&p=456637

Matt

This is the link to the thread:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=31474#p455933

This is the link to the post:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=31474#p456637

This is the post:

One prototype they are building for me is a 3220 with a vented front and rear plate. I will machine a squirrel cage fan blade for the rear to pull air through the motor. This used to not be possible because the front of the can was blocked by the drive face plate. But the DaVinci drive is open on the front allowing through air flow.

 

[recumpence]

Thanks Mitch. I made that post in haste as I was on my way out the door.

Matt

 

[Green Machine]

Just finished hanging out for a couple of days with the one and only Justin visiting from canada for burning man.

Told him about my mount diablo short thrill ride and he non chalantly mentioned that he successfully climbed the same mountain on the same road this year on an electric unicycle. It was powered by a 9c and a proprietary controller. He said he should have gotten a picture of him on the top with his unicycle. I wish he did because this would be a good spot to post it.

Rubbing salt in the wounds.

If i were Justin i would be thinking about beating optibike next year up pikes peak on a unicycle..now that would be something.

 

[liveforphysics]

Just finished hanging out for a couple of days with the one and only Justin visiting from canada for burning man.

Told him about my mount diablo short thrill ride and he non chalantly mentioned that he successfully climbed the same mountain on the same road this year on an electric unicycle. It was powered by a 9c and a proprietary controller. He said he should have gotten a picture of him on the top with his unicycle. I wish he did because this would be a good spot to post it.

Rubbing salt in the wounds.

If i were Justin i would be thinking about beating optibike next year up pikes peak on a unicycle..now that would be something.

What a treat to get to chill with Justin at BM. I wanted to go badly this year, but commitments to the revolution prevented it. :'(

Justin is FAST on a unicycle! I was blown away by how fast he goes!

 

[Green Machine]

It was an amazing treat even though we didnt hang at burning man. I met him here in SF which was what was suppose to be just a lunch date and we kind of hit it off and i talked him into spending the night and hanging out. Pretty cool when you can change the plans around of somebody like that cuz you feel like your messing with the destiny of the ebike universe in some way cuz he is such a force.

So we took ebike ride through the city and i am happy that he seemed to have a really good time and enjoyed some of my "secret" spots i showed him.

I thought the whole time how lucky am to ride and talk ebikes with this guy who i believe someday soon will be living ebike legend.

At one point we were gambling on a chess game and he kept doubling the bet if i let him take a move back. I was also getting him drunk. And he kept digging in his wallet to see how much he had left to wager. I thought wow wouldnt it be an amazing story if i can get him to break loose gambling wise and at the end of the night I can get him to put up ES as a wager...what a story i would have for you guys. Hey guess what i just won ES in a chess game and i just wanted to let you guys know there is a new sherriff and my plan is to monetize the site. Man did i really want to drop that bomb on you guys today but no such luck.

Anyway meeting and hanging with Jusin was a true honor and the guy did not disappoint. He is really a fantastic and fascinating person and i will probably remember yesterday for the rest of my life.

 

[liveforphysics]

So, who ended up winning the chess game!!!

 

[Thud]

I conclude it was Justin......or a draw!

Man did i really want to drop that bomb on you guys today but no such luck.

 

[Green Machine]

It feels so good to own someone like that at an intellectual armwrestle. He was pretty intense..really involved in every move and a very descent player for someone who has never played seriously.

Sick Brag post: I owned him! And i was playing a rook down as a handicap!

So maybe he is not that much of a god after all. Just kidding he is...just didnt waste his youth on chess.

 

[liveforphysics]

Good job on the win.

I would like to challenge you to an unhandicapped match.

I did waste a lot of time as a kid playing chess. I haven't played for 5 years though, I will start playing some folks again to knock the rust off my game, and then we do battle.

 

[fechter]

Say Hi to Justin for me.

On the motors, when I was ripping around on it, I felt the motors after riding for a while and they were just luke warm. Climbing a hill is maybe tougher on them, but stop and go acceleration is pretty tough too. I thought it should be good for a pretty long hill.

If one motor developed a shorted winding or froze a bearing, it would act like brakes on both of them. It would be evident in the no load current being higher than normal. You should try to find exactly what failed in the motor(s). It is important to know if you just had the rig geared too tall or if something failed in the motor first which caused it to overheat.

 

[Green Machine]

I'd love to play you luke...also get together for ebike ride or plane flight or whatever.

I am all up for hanging out with ES Legends....some of the smartest most interesting people i have met has been through these forums.

By the way justin pulled out a pocket blue laser he got from Luke and was pretty proud of it. He said you disassembled some projector or something to build it.

Hey here is my chess biography: http://academicchess.com/how_we_began.htm i guess not that interesting but i believe in chess like justin believes in electric bikes. That bio was written like 10-15 years ago. So i am all about getting kids to waste their youth playing chess.

 

[liveforphysics]

By the way justin pulled out a pocket blue laser he got from Luke and was pretty proud of it. He said you disassembled some projector or something to build it.

SICK! I'm glad he is carrying it. It's a pretty sick laser. Over 1-watt of blue light output in a form factor about the size of a thumb. I think I put a tiny nano-tech cell on that one too.

For folks who don't appreciate what 1-watt of laser light is like, imagine over 200 legal laser pointers all aimed at exactly the same point, and blue rather than red. You can clearly see the brilliant blue beam in the sky.

 

[Green Machine]

Say Hi to Justin for me.

On the motors, when I was ripping around on it, I felt the motors after riding for a while and they were just luke warm. Climbing a hill is maybe tougher on them, but stop and go acceleration is pretty tough too. I thought it should be good for a pretty long hill.

If one motor developed a shorted winding or froze a bearing, it would act like brakes on both of them. It would be evident in the no load current being higher than normal. You should try to find exactly what failed in the motor(s). It is important to know if you just had the rig geared too tall or if something failed in the motor first which caused it to overheat.

Hi Richard,

Somehow i missed your post in the whirlwind.

Next week we will be installing the new matt davinci drive in the trike with a single 3220 motor and removing the 2 burned out 3220 motors.

After i do that I will post pics of the internal of the motors so we can evaluate what went wrong. I would appreciate any input from you and others once i post the pics.

Shortly after i plan to try to conquer Mount diablo again this time on a single 3220 with heat sincs (built into the new matt drive) and some kind of active cooling. I plan to defy miles (i know pretty stupid) and attempt with the same gearing. I guess i am a believer in experimental over theoretical or something like that. No problem Mitchj has an extra 3220 on stanby in case i fail.

It just really gets me that Justin for whatever reason earlier this year decided to scale that peek on an electric unicycle and not say or post anything about it.

It reminds me of the monty python scene when king arthur rolls up on a castle and yells up to the guard to tell his master that i am in search of the holy grail and if he gives me a place to stay i will allow him to join me on my search ...oh your in search of the holy grail? I will tell my master but i dont think he will be to keen...you see...he has already got one! (does anyone remember that scene?)

Damn...if a freaking unicycle with a 200 dollar hub can do it a 3220 should crush that peek. ...or die trying.

[youtube]9V7zbWNznbs[/youtube]

 

[Miles]

I plan to defy miles (i know pretty stupid) and attempt with the same gearing. I guess i am a believer in experimental over theoretical or something like that. No problem Mitchj has an extra 3220 on stanby in case i fail.

I was only crunching the data available. Empirical always wins. Your previous gearing should have been ok for most of the climb (assuming the gradients posted were right). Matt's new drive set up will give you a greatly increased thermal inertia, as well as the increased surface area, that should help a lot.

 

[Green Machine]

Miles,

I really appreciate your input. Really.

You are more than likely correct.

I am just set on my course since it is easier to risk another motor than change gearing. After i fry another motor i will know you were right for sure.

 

[Miles]

I was saying that I think you will probably make it, with the da Vinci drive....

 

[Green Machine]

Hey Miles,

I actually agree with you (and matt, and luke, and hillhater, etc)

If i failed on 2 dual 3220's, cooling systems should not make much of a difference with a single 3220 with the same gearing.

However this time i have a wireless thermometer i found via this thread: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25502

So i figure once the motor appraches 200 degrees i just stop the test and go home without frying the motor.

I only give myself a 35 percent chance i will make it to the top without an extended rest stop.

But it is important to me because i really want to climb at a 30mph average speed.

So i will try one more time.

I am probably doomed. BUt if it happens to work i will try again and again...and then i will know a 3220 is really up to the task of basic hill climbing reliably.

 

[Kurt]

Hey Miles,

I actually agree with you (and matt, and luke, and hillhater, etc)

If i failed on 2 dual 3220's, cooling systems should not make much of a difference with a single 3220 with the same gearing.

However this time i have a wireless thermometer i found via this thread: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25502

So i figure once the motor appraches 200 degrees i just stop the test and go home without frying the motor.

I only give myself a 35 percent chance I will make it to the top without an extended rest stop.

But it is important to me because I really want to climb at a 30mph average speed.

So I will try one more time.

I am probably doomed. But if it happens to work I will try again and again...and then I will know a 3220 is really up to the task of basic hill climbing reliably.

Sounds like a expensive experiment treating Astro motors like Litmus paper :wink: . If you have to stop a lot to let it cool down all the time. It will be hard to average 30mph when you take the breaks into consideration. Would be great if you could get some video or even just some pics the next time you try. Helps others get a real view of what you are trying to achieve.

Good luck

Kurt

 

[recumpence]

Hey Guys,

I have spent hours, and hours, AND HOURS on the phone with Astro over the last couple weeks about updating pretty much every aspect of the 3220. We are doing some major revamping and updating. This will not help efficiency (92% to 94% is tough to improve on), but it will allow far higher continual power.

Here are some details;

#1 Astro is meeting with their epoxy manufaturer next week about some extremely high temp epoxy that is electrically insulative, but thermally conductive (pretty cool stuff).

#2 1/2 inch shafts (this is on 3220s only) with FAR larger bearings.

#3 This is the really cool part (pun intended :wink: )------ I am drilling out the faceplate on my 4 turn 3220 and mounting a sqirrel-cage fan on the rear (it is a twin shaft motor) to test and Astro is doing the same thing at their shop for testing. We both feel this fan cooling and increased epoxy thermal transfer should nearly double the continuous power handling of the 3220. Once we confirm the exact numbers, we are redesigning the can with a thicker front and rear plate with large vents and production CNC machined cooling fans. This new motor is tentatively designated "3220-F" (for "Fan Cooled").

There are some other cool things we are working on together that are even more interesting, but those are currently classified.........

Matt

 

[MitchJi]

Hi Matt,

#3 This is the really cool part (pun intended :wink: )------ I am drilling out the faceplate on my 4 turn 3220 and mounting a sqirrel-cage fan on the rear (it is a twin shaft motor) to test and Astro is doing the same thing at their shop for testing. We both feel this fan cooling and increased epoxy thermal transfer should nearly double the continuous power handling of the 3220. Once we confirm the exact numbers, we are redesigning the can with a thicker front and rear plate with large vents and production CNC machined cooling fans. This new motor is tentatively designated "3220-F" (for "Fan Cooled").

My main concern would be noise as compared to the Non-Fan-Cooled model. So I would work on making quiet and cool. Proper vent routing should reduce the noise considerably and reduce potential problems with dirt.