Adaptto Mini-E/Max-E Owner's Thread

[Offroader]

Better to experiment with throttle curve than Phase amps.
350-400amps is nice but motor does overheat in no time.

Allex, I see your point and the throttle curve does help because if I push full throttle from stop as fast as I can then you can feel a lot more power. I guess that is the same as changing the throttle curve. But I don't want it like that all the time either. I actually like the default throttle curve and it gives me a very good power range and controllability.

I just feel that in certain rare times like climbing a very steep hill from stop the Max-E can use a little more phase amps. There were a few rare places where I had to push my bike up where the Lyen 18 fet would have had enough power.

I guess what would be best is to be able to change the 3 modes so that 1 (ECO) is slow speed, 2 (normal?)is very high power where I would use it most of the time, and 3 (boost) is highest power to use rarely. The way it is now the 2nd power setting really restricts phase amps compared to the boost setting, so I have to use boost all of the time. Actually the middle power setting is way too slow to use in my opinion even with setting phase amps to max.

The way I also see it the Lyen 18fet had no trouble running at max phase amps with the block time set to 10. So why wouldn't the max-E be able to handle a little more phase amps?

What other has me confused is that I always thought I didn't run much wattage, max 4300 watts while most people are talking about the crazy high watts they are running. I also seem to be the only person who really complains about the restricted low phase amps of the Max-E.

It makes me wonder if people were setting their block time low on their old controllers and increasing the wattage to make up for the lower phase amps. If that is even possible or makes sense? I am yet to learn exactly how wattage and phase amps work together because it seems that I have increased my battery amps on the Max-E to make up for the lower or restricted phase amps.

I think I like to do a lot of slow speed climbing, like extremely steep hills and stairs, where the phase amps seem more important than increasing the peak wattage. A lot of my riding also requires me to have very quick acceleration from the stop to gain speed quickly for certain things.

What I really need to learn is how phase amps work in relation to peak wattage (volts * battery amps) and how these work when the motor is at different speeds.

 

[Doctorbass]

Better to experiment with throttle curve than Phase amps.
350-400amps is nice but motor does overheat in no time.

Allex, I see your point and the throttle curve does help because if I push full throttle from stop as fast as I can then you can feel a lot more power. I guess that is the same as changing the throttle curve. But I don't want it like that all the time either. I actually like the default throttle curve and it gives me a very good power range and controllability.

I just feel that in certain rare times like climbing a very steep hill from stop the Max-E can use a little more phase amps. There were a few rare places where I had to push my bike up where the Lyen 18 fet would have had enough power.

I guess what would be best is to be able to change the 3 modes so that 1 (ECO) is slow speed, 2 (normal?)is very high power where I would use it most of the time, and 3 (boost) is highest power to use rarely. The way it is now the 2nd power setting really restricts phase amps compared to the boost setting, so I have to use boost all of the time. Actually the middle power setting is way too slow to use in my opinion even with setting phase amps to max.

The way I also see it the Lyen 18fet had no trouble running at max phase amps with the block time set to 10. So why wouldn't the max-E be able to handle a little more phase amps?

What other has me confused is that I always thought I didn't run much wattage, max 4300 watts while most people are talking about the crazy high watts they are running. I also seem to be the only person who really complains about the restricted low phase amps of the Max-E.

It makes me wonder if people were setting their block time low on their old controllers and increasing the wattage to make up for the lower phase amps. If that is even possible or makes sense? I am yet to learn exactly how wattage and phase amps work together because it seems that I have increased my battery amps on the Max-E to make up for the lower or restricted phase amps.

I think I like to do a lot of slow speed climbing, like extremely steep hills and stairs, where the phase amps seem more important than increasing the peak wattage. A lot of my riding also requires me to have very quick acceleration from the stop to gain speed quickly for certain things.

What I really need to learn is how phase amps work in relation to peak wattage (volts * battery amps) and how these work when the motor is at different speeds.

I am not sure about witch motor do you use but phase amp is also limited by the winding and battery voltage you have. If you dont have enough voltage on a high torque motor you will feel that it lack of power at high speed.

the best exemple for a great balanced system before i get teh MAX-E was when i had my 5303 ( on a 24") at 30s lipo and 220A phase with my kelly. the powerband was really large.. I meanit was possible to feel the INTENSE pulling force all the way up to 95km/h.. then it began to reduce until 113kmh.

I am really curious to see what will be the result with my very fast winding 5302 motor ( Kv of 18 !!) and 350A phase current at 85-90V !!

Doc

 

[Allex]

Offroader what is your batt current and phase current?
Seeems very strange that you cannot handle ANY uphill with your setup.

 

[madin88]

doc, what was the kV of this 5303 motor?

 

[Offroader]

Offroader what is your batt current and phase current?
Seeems very strange that you cannot handle ANY uphill with your setup.

Sorry Allex, maybe I wasn't clear. I can handle all hills. I am talking about really steep hills when starting from a low speed or starting from stop. The Lyen 18 fet was able to pull harder because of the basically unlimited phase amp setting. I wouldn't be surprised if it was pushing 500-800 phase amps.

I can't remember what I have set my batt and phase current at. Phase current is maxed around 364 I believe and batt current is probably around 80 as I peak at 5300 watts at ~72 volts.

The Max-E isn't bad at all, but I wouldn't mind increasing the phase amps to have more fun. I just wish I knew what my phase amps were pushing on my Lyen 18fet because of the unlimited setting. I guess there is no reason not to unlock it to increase the phase a amps slightly after warranty is over.

My Max-E gets about 20%+ more range when running 1000 more peak watts and also using OVS a lot vs the Lyen 18fet. This is probably because of the limited phase amps and the throttle is much more linear.

 

[GreenRoad]

Hello
with the adaptto controller there seems to be a limit of power at the startpoint with 0 rpm.
I use the adaptto mini with the cpd middrivemotor.
If i press the brake and turn the Throttle - i get an current of about 8 - 10amps - not more.
If the motor gets in roation then it is possible to push the full power in the motor - like the power profile.

Its the same thing with the kelly controller - but there is the current max. 5A at the starting point.

If i compare this to an normal RC sensorless controller, there its allways possible to push the full current with rpm 0 inside the motor.

I think this is safty mode - or it depands on the sinus communtation - that it is not possible to push more power inside the motor.

I could not say more to this topic, because of my outrunner motor i allway get quiet high rpm - in the case the motor gets in motion.

 

[Doctorbass]

doc, what was the kV of this 5303 motor?

The 5304 is kv of 9.1
The 5303 is kv of 12.1
The 5302 is kv of 18.2

Doc

some value was corrected ( 13 Jan 2015)
Doc

 

[xenodius]

I am really curious to see what will be the result with my very fast winding 5302 motor ( Kv of 18 !!) and 350A phase current at 85-90V !!

Doc

I am as well! It's quite some time off but I hope to build up a dual Max-E/Hubmonster build (which has a Kv of just over 18!) which should be good for 88mph in a 19" OD wheel at that voltage. I [strike]think[/strike] know the powerband will be very good up to about 65mph, without OVS. Curious to hear about your experience paralleling the Max-E, if you're still doing that.

I plan to push the charging envelope by charging through both Max-E's simultaneously via a pair of Eatons at 220v for each Max-E, that is a ~7.5kw charge rate. Adappto already informed me it is possible to charge via multiple phases simultaneously, so I can use 4 of 6 phases to charge and heatsink the controllers for insurance.

Just a matter of time and $$$.

 

[crea2k]

Hello
with the adaptto controller there seems to be a limit of power at the startpoint with 0 rpm.
I use the adaptto mini with the cpd middrivemotor.
If i press the brake and turn the Throttle - i get an current of about 8 - 10amps - not more.
If the motor gets in roation then it is possible to push the full power in the motor - like the power profile.

Its the same thing with the kelly controller - but there is the current max. 5A at the starting point.

If i compare this to an normal RC sensorless controller, there its allways possible to push the full current with rpm 0 inside the motor.

I think this is safty mode - or it depands on the sinus communtation - that it is not possible to push more power inside the motor.

I could not say more to this topic, because of my outrunner motor i allway get quiet high rpm - in the case the motor gets in motion.

I think this is more of a motor safety function, as it doesnt take much current to fry a stalled motor compared to when its running.

 

[Allex]

If I wank full throttle from dead stop I get all of my 130/150 DC amps at once. No delay.
Maybe it is your middrive settings or phase ratio or speed profiles that makes the controller push no more than 10A at the start.
If I set my phase amps really low it will ramp up slowly, not the case if you have a good proportion.

Offroader I am surprised that you can do that kind of driving without cooking your motor. This summer I was doing some runs with other ebikers. They had cromotors and max-e and I with my heavy 5403. First we did a 30 degree hill for about 2 minutes and then hi speed drag for about 3 minutes. After this, both my and Andreys winding temps where at 140C
I had 400A on the phases Andrey with his cro had 260 but he is heavier so is his bike.

 

[GreenRoad]

Hello
As i write - i mean the maximum power at a blocked motor, what means for me - no roation of the motor.
in the case that the motor gets in motion - that could be a verry low roation - i get the maximum power outside.

I also think that its an good feature - but if you like an wheelie machine - its not good.....

At the adaptto menu you also have the possibility to reduce the current at the starting point - which an good feature for geared Motors, to reduce the torque to the gearbox.

Now everything works perfect with the adaptto - you have an high possibility to do changes and adjust the system.
The great advantage is also, you could this to without any PC Interface - on road / at testing - and this is an good feature.

 

[madin88]

doc, what was the kV of this 5303 motor?

The 5304 is kv of 9
The 5303 is kv of 13.5
The 5302 is kv of 18

Doc

referring to MXUS motors: if 4T motor has 9kV, wouldn't 3T motor have 12kV instead of 13.5?
-> 4/3 x current and 3/4 x voltage for identical output. therefore 9kV x 4/3 = 12kV

 

[knighty]

anyone know much about charge rates at different voltages ?

I know charger volts should be just above battery volts for most efficient setup....

and that's fine when I have mains power... but I'm trying to think of an easy way to charge from my camper van

running 18s so about 74v fully charged... I'm wondering if I can charge directly from 12v in my camper van... or if I'll have to step the voltage up

 

[Allex]

You need at least 24V

 

[Doctorbass]

doc, what was the kV of this 5303 motor?

The 5304 is kv of 9
The 5303 is kv of 13.5
The 5302 is kv of 18

Doc

referring to MXUS motors: if 4T motor has 9kV, wouldn't 3T motor have 12kV instead of 13.5?
-> 4/3 x current and 3/4 x voltage for identical output. therefore 9kV x 4/3 = 12kV

You are right! I have corrected the value according to the thread I made when I measured all these value (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=19301 the 5303 have a kv of 12.1

 

[Doctorbass]

You need at least 24V

Allex, I have tried for fun charging my 22s at 14V with a 30uH coil and 680uF low ESR cap.

It worked! but the coil was way too hot! lol.. It was chiming like a bird lol !

I think that the coil had a too small core. In fact the winding of the toroidal coil was fine but the core was really hot.

I have changed for a bigger core (2x cross sectional core area) rewinded the coil with 9 turn of 14gauge insulated copper, and I will try soon.

The try with 14v was just to see if it work but in fact I will charge with my great Meanwell 48V psu.

Doc

 

[GreenRoad]

You need at least 24V

Allex, I have tried for fun charging my 22s at 14V with a 30uH coil and 680uF low ESR cap.

It worked! but the coil was way too hot! lol.. It was chiming like a bird lol !

I think that the coil had a too small core. In fact the winding of the toroidal coil was fine but the core was really hot.

I have changed for a bigger core (2x cross sectional core area) rewinded the coil with 9 turn of 14gauge insulated copper, and I will try soon.

The try with 14v was just to see if it work but in fact I will charge with my great Meanwell 48V psu.

Doc

I think nobody has realy find out, what coil is the best for charging with the adaptto controller. It depands on differnt thinks - to find the right coil.
I did also a try by myself - but the same problem - the coil geeting to warm - allready with 10amps input current.

So i think its the best way to buy the original coil from adaptto..... this stuff works.

 

[crea2k]

The original coil from Adaptto doesn't exactly break the bank either, its cheap in comparison to the controller itself, its a bit like buying a Ferarri and then running it on Regular lol.

 

[Allex]

If you make your own coil for high current charging, be vary careful. You have to know what you are doing otherwise you can blow your controller. As crea pointed out, they have a decent price on the coils so one should not take the risk.
You can read more here:
http://electrotransport.ru/ussr/index.php?topic=18930.msg492946#msg492946

 

[Doctorbass]

Hey Allex,

With the last RC9e firmware the max limit i can set on my Max-E are 338A phase amp and 130 batt amp? is it normal? I tought it waws like 350 or 400 phase amp and 140 batt amp? ( mine is still locked version)

Doc

 

[madin88]

Hey Allex,

With the last RC9e firmware the max limit i can set on my Max-E are 338A phase amp and 130 batt amp? is it normal? I tought it waws like 350 or 400 phase amp and 140 batt amp? ( mine is still locked version)

Doc

unfortunately yes :?

 

[Allex]

Yes, you have to unlock it or use older firmwares. I still stuck with the rc7b

 

[Rodney64]

One thing that i find with my 29e pack the BMS restricts my amps. It depends on what how I've been riding. The maxe decently needs a hi C rated pack.

Im planing on putting my maxe on my phasor with the 24s pack with my cromoter so it will be interesting to see how it goes. My maxe with 29e pack was restricted to 50 odd amp continuous. Yes I did have spikes of 150 but for short periods. Just something to think about when you have a BMS

 

[Offroader]

Hey Allex,

With the last RC9e firmware the max limit i can set on my Max-E are 338A phase amp and 130 batt amp? is it normal? I tought it waws like 350 or 400 phase amp and 140 batt amp? ( mine is still locked version)

Doc

This is why I keep saying 338 phase amps are very low. I think if you had a lyen 18fet with a default block time of 10 seconds, you may be pushing more like 500-800 phase amps. I don't know the numbers but just throwing out there, because 338 phase amps are very low.

You'll just have to unlock it and up those phase amps to at least 500 to get decent low end power.

 

[Doctorbass]

Some recent tests:

Last firmware: RC9e
batt voltage NMC 22s, ( 92V max 85 avg and is max recommanded)
phase amp: 338A (max with locked version)
Batt amp : 130A batt ( max with locked version)
motor: 5302 ( old very fast X5 motor) with 32mm stator and 2 turn of 10 strands = equiv to 9awg
wheel: 20" slic
OVS=0
no tuning done( no "PWR timing" or "Angle Corr" or "Ind Timing"), only the autodetect sequence
output type: square wave ( no sine) X5 have angled stator tooth and apparently this is recommanded...


= 10.2hp at 105km/h at the wheel and 95lb-ft and 115lb thrust( only measured from 9kmh+) and top speed: 145km/h on a mopped dyno, and 10.5kW max recorded

(the torque is probably higher but the dyno was not able to measure it from zero km/h)

But i made alot of tests and slowly increased batt current and phase current until they was all maxed.

motor run cold and controller run cold 8)

I feel there is still alot of room for alot more power!!

My old 5302 never shown any sign of core saturation yet, the dyno curve is constant.

Doc