Aprilia Enjoy

[tonyontopofabighill]

G'day HH,

Yes, I did see that but only after I had placed the order and had heard nothing re the matter from HK. I didn't have a reply from HK for a couple of weeks. I understand that it threw them into a spin and obviously they had been inundated with emails but when one has an order placed and paid for and nothing is happening it makes for frustration.
Anyway alls well now. I got a refund and I will wait until they sort out new delivery strategies.

 

[Ken Taylor]

By the way has anybody else had trouble getting lipos from HK ? I ordered some about a month ago and had to put in a paypal claim because they didn't send them. I have heard about the air shipping being a problem.

I buy them from the HobbyKing warehouse in Narooma. Takes 2 days to courier to Canberra but, being just down the road, you can pick them up same day. Narooma seems an odd spot for a distribution centre, being small and far from sea and air routes. I've wondered why it's there.

I bought 4 more recently as I've been batterying up for the 165km Fitzs Classic challenge next Sunday. https://sitedesq.imgstg.com/customd...6594&itemLayout=1&headerselector=3&OrgID=4063 There is 3km of elevation gain and it will be a substantial challenge not to bonk. Most people who know I'm taking the electric are hoping I do and I fear the embarrassment.

I've been testing power consumption on hill climbing and changed back to the Megarange gear to improve efficiency on hills. Even with the Megarange I need to keep above 13.5 km/h resulting in a cadence of 66 rpm to maintain bearable pedalling and motor efficiency which is tough on grades of 10%. Efficiency goes to hell any slower, meaning the battery is mostly wasted and the motor gets hot fast. 15-16km/h corresponding to a cadence of 73-78 rpm would be better for efficiency.

 

[Samd]

The hobbyking issue wasn't supposed to effect Australia I thought. So their bulletin said. Might've taken them a while to figure it out.

I sometimes wonder if some of the rear terminals will short on some bikes - awfully close to the frame...

 

[Ken Taylor]

The hobbyking issue wasn't supposed to effect Australia I thought. So their bulletin said. Might've taken them a while to figure it out.

Thanks to tonyontopofabighill for pointing out that the HobbyKing warehouse is at Moruya, 40km from Narooma, but still an odd place for a warehouse.

Moruya comes up as a "pick up from Moruya warehouse" delivery option and the location struck me as strange. With HobbyKing you choose the warehouse you order from. If you choose the International warehouse they will be post from there even if the same item is stocked in the Australian warehouse. This suggests to me HobbyKing is a franchise operation.

The Australian warehouse has a smaller range than the International one. The courier service is fast. The HobbyKing website showed my batteries as not yet dispatched and I already had them.

I sometimes wonder if some of the rear terminals will short on some bikes - awfully close to the frame...

I can see some rubber or similar on yours acting as an insulator. Just an air gap on mine, but it would need a sliver of metal or something to bridge the gap and the frame is painted there. Also, what are you using the two middle terminals for, I can see wires on them? On the stock bike that is the 12V supply.

 

[Samd]

Gday Ken,
not used on mine, just left over from the stock battery - I think they are center tap for 12v from batt to run the controller, and a thermal sensor inside the batt.

 

[Samd]

A very successful night in the shed. I've had the parts for a gearbox rebuild on my bench for ages, familiar story, couldn't get the main drive gear off with it's reverse thread.

Managed to have a go with a number of customer ebike builds done and need to clear my shed for moving.
I ended up grabbing an old suspension fork and steer tube assy and it slid over the aprilia tool that is made for removing this gear. I ground two flats on the old gear as per usual. clamped it in the vice, slid the forks over the tool to make the mother of all torque bars and gave it a heave. Much groaning and squeaking akin to when Indiana Jones hauls a boulder from the mouth of a cave, a sudden shudder and the gear swung free.



Thanks to the other nine bikes in my shed I will rebuild one aprilia and offer it for sale with a new gearbox in the for sale section soon, with the 3x8s lipo deck. Watch this space.

 

[Ken Taylor]

Much groaning and squeaking akin to when Indiana Jones hauls a boulder from the mouth of a cave, a sudden shudder and the gear swung free.

Sounds like a lot of effort. Reminds me of why I've not yet had the courage to open the gearbox.

... I will rebuild one aprilia and offer it for sale with a new gearbox in the for sale section soon, with the 3x8s lipo deck. Watch this space.

I guess it is an 8s3p configuration. I can get 4 x 5s in 10s2p configuration using these http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__8581__ZIPPY_Flightmax_5000mAh_5S1P_20C.html in the battery space and there is a lot of extra space lengthwise. How does 3 x 8s fit? If you get two wide and there is length for two that suggests you could fit four.

Also I remember you like fuses but there is a lot to be said for a BMS. Overvoltage, undervoltage, overcurrent protections and cell balancing is nice.

 

[Hillhater]

Ken,
I have fitted 6 of those 5s, 5Ahr packs configured 10s, 3p in a separate, removable "tray" that fits in the standard battery bay.
Without the tray , i am sure i could get much more in there, but i am rather thinking to go with a pack of 18650's to maximize space utilization to shoot for a 20-25 Ahr , pack

 

[Ken Taylor]

Ken,
I have fitted 6 of those 5s, 5Ahr packs configured 10s, 3p in a separate, removable "tray" that fits in the standard battery bay.

I didn't think it could get three lengthways. In a tray would be nice. Got a photo?

Without the tray , i am sure i could get much more in there, but i am rather thinking to go with a pack of 18650's to maximize space utilization to shoot for a 20-25 Ahr , pack

20-25 Ahr would be nice but removable is important. Also, those batteries are supposed to be discharged at 1C so you will need at least 20ah for hills. I went through 2 x 10 Ah 36V, 1 x 5Ah 36V and 1 x 9.2 Ah 33V packs on yesterdays 165 km Fitz's challenge. I stuck the 10 Ah on charge midway at Tharwa so I could reuse it on the return trip. I still bonked 6 km out of Tharwa and 8km from home though and, when I was already suffering, had to haul 25kg of Aprilia up a few hills without assist. Some people I'd passed earlier obviously got pleasure from the struggle as they cruised by.

 

[Samd]

Yes I've stopped using fuses after the box caught fire awhile back - luckily not the actual lipo, just the fuse holder caught fire. And it was my black bike, so the small amount of smoke that exited the battery box can't be seen on the paint ;P

I think a cell monitor makes sense. A BMS would do but after self balancing the first few times I think everything seems to stay in balance if using full price Turnigys rather than Zippys.

I originally opted for 8s as the top speed was enough, and that was the limit to balance chargers in a single deck. 10s makes sense in hindsight but that was a few years ago and we were all learning...

Opening the gearbox is actually pretty easy. Getting the main drive gear off the chainwheel assembly isn't. It gets heated up while riding, 100Nm of torque applied or thereabouts whilst hot, and then it cools. No wonder it's fastened tight. And you have to keep reminding yourself it is a left hand thread when you're heaving away because your subconcious keeps screaming at you that you're going the wrong way Like connecting up a fresh BBQ gas bottle after a beer...

 

[Ken Taylor]

I think a cell monitor makes sense. A BMS would do but after self balancing the first few times I think everything seems to stay in balance if using full price Turnigys rather than Zippys.

I was thinking of a cell monitor at one stage which disabled the throttle when the battery went under voltage but went off the idea. Once you put electronics in the battery you might as well put in a package that protects in every way possible. A BMS should prevent any damage or fire risk apart from shorts within the battery casing.

So far I've had a few shorts (due to the motor fault previously mentioned), charged over voltage once on the 33 Volt pack and always run batteries down until they shut off. So I've been saved by all the protections offered. I've got all my BMS's from Cellman but I wonder what brand they are.

 

[Samd]

I ended up with both my battery packs like this, with a third 8s pack inside:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=18505&start=200#p461792

The third 8s has two 4s packs inside it in a horseshoe configuration, so half the length of the long packs. Really expensive way to do it - but that is the benefit of hindsight...

 

[Ken Taylor]

- but that is the benefit of hindsight...

Yes. I wouldn't build the 40 cell LiFePO4 again. A huge effort to build, more expensive and heavier than Lipo. More than double the number of recharges though.

 

[Hillhater]

I thought i had posted this previously...(but i appear not to have ! )
It just 3 plastic "project box's" from Jcar, cemented together end on end to make a rigid removable tray that sits happily on the battery bay.
Harness is all 4mm bullets (lots) which could have been simpler and more compact if i hade gone with full soldered system, but i wanted to keep everything easy to separate. Balance taps also parallel'd up
Separate bullet connectors to a new bike harness, wired into the original battery connector terminal block.

Ref 18650 cells

those batteries are supposed to be discharged at 1C so you will need at least 20ah for hills.

true for laptop sourced cells, but there are others with high "C" rates ( 3, 5, or even 10C is available ...at a price !)
It seems that a compromise between C rate and Ahr capacity is required..IE the cells with the higher capacity seem to have lower "C" rates and vice versa.
Some serious thinking is required to find the optimum cells to give the best range and performance. :?

 

[Ken Taylor]

It just 3 plastic "project box's" from Jcar, cemented together end on end to make a rigid removable tray that sits happily on the battery bay.

Thanks for posting the photo. I've used these Jaycar boxes as well, on your recommendation, and if I'd seen it earlier I probably would have also tried for three long. I've done one two long. Did you need to remove the rear terminal block (shown below) to get it to fit?

I can see you have removed the box corner posts and, the slight curvature on the sides suggests, kept the internal ridges. The lack of a lid I regard as problematic. There is plenty of depth in the tray so there is room for a lid if one can be fitted somehow. The BMS, that I like to use, would also fit on top of the cells and under a lid.

Ref 18650 cells

those batteries are supposed to be discharged at 1C so you will need at least 20ah for hills.

true for laptop sourced cells, but there are others with high "C" rates ( 3, 5, or even 10C is available ...at a price !)
It seems that a compromise between C rate and Ahr capacity is required..IE the cells with the higher capacity seem to have lower "C" rates and vice versa.

Yes. 18650 refers to cell geometry rather than chemistry. HobbyKing sells the same capacity in different C rates by varying the package size. If the geometry is fixed then different chemistry varies the capacity. I was able to get 15C lipos for a 5Ah battery fitted in the same Jaycar box. The lipos in your picture are larger, so will have a higher C rating.

The smaller size allowed three corner posts to be kept and the BMS and wiring to be fitted beside, rather than on top of the battery which meant the lid still fitted. On my last purchase only 20C were available. These are a bit bigger, heavier and more expensive.

HobbyKing's rectangular geometry, packs more densely and is easier to use than the cylindrical 18650 geometry or the cylindrical 26650 geometry used in my LiFePO4 pack. I've seen somewhere that Samsung 18650 laptop cells have a higher energy density by weight and volume than HobbyKing lipo, 20% or so from memory. This combined with high energy/$ because they are made in the squillions is their edge. If you abandon the 1C chemistry I expect you also lose the other advantages.

 

[Hillhater]

The 3 box's fit without removing the original battery posts ...so i can still slip the original 24v NiMH pack back in if needed.
And yes, my packs are the 20C HK, so the wiring harness (messy with all bullet connectors) .. has to sit on top, so no possibility of fitting the lids. Not a problem though with the original bodywork cover still used..
Those 18650 size cells come in hundreds of different capacity/performance ranges and from lots of different sources.
Sony, Sanyo, Samsung, LG, Panasonic, etc all make multiple different spec quality 18650 cells, with many others of unknown origin also available.
This site shows many of the options..
http://www.dampfakkus.de/liste_akkus.php
and
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Common18650Summary%20UK.html
As you will see thare are a lot of "Duds" and blatant fake cells out there.
Choosing the right cell for your application is like looking for the proverbial needle in the haystack !

The biggest advantage of the HK LiPo packs is the ease of assembly into a suitable "bike sized" pack without hundreds of soldered links.

 

[tonyontopofabighill]

G'day HH,

How do you fit the Aprilia cover onto your 3 jcar boxed arrangement and can you lock it in position with the original key/lug setup?

Cheers,
Tony.

 

[Hillhater]

Hi Tony,
The Pack is a good "fit" into the battery bay and the original cover was removed from the 24v pack and is now a separate loose item. IT locks into place using the original "ignition" key mechanism using a "Tounge" that i made with a hole for the locking pin fixed to the cover, together with a pair of "locating" pins at the rear end.

 

[tonyontopofabighill]

Thanks HH,

Tony.

 

[Ken Taylor]

Those 18650 size cells come in hundreds of different capacity/performance ranges and from lots of different sources...
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Common18650Summary%20UK.html
...Choosing the right cell for your application is like looking for the proverbial needle in the haystack !

Sifting through the haystack, I see no cells with a higher capacity than Panasonic NCR 18650B 3400mAh (green) and they can also withstand a 5 amp discharge without much loss of capacity. These are tested as 3.1AH. Today on a group ride of 89 km with unpowered bikes I managed 3.6 wh/km. Discharging at over 10 amps for no more than 3.5% of the battery usage time, I flattened a 10S2P battery constructed from Zippy 5AH 20C packs measuring energy extracted as 8.4AH which equates to 4.2AH per cell. Comparing the two chemistries gets 2.3 x Energy/m3 and 2 x Energy/kg for the Panasonic batteries over the Zippys. That is an impressive improvement. Panasonics are available on eBay, shipped from Sydney. Less impressively, on an Energy/$ basis they are double the cost of 20C Zippys.

I can configure the Aprilia with nominal 5AH, 9.2AH, 14.2AH, 15AH, 19.2AH or 24.2AH capacities. The images and narrative beginning at http://www.flickr.com/photos/81664624@N00/10625273806/in/set-72157637222677743/ describes the various layouts, implementations and capabilities. The 24.2AH configuration is ungainly and an unpleasant 8.4 KG.

I'd only use it when desperate for range. With Panasonics this capacity could probably fit in the battery bay, weigh about half as much and be untroubled by a 20A load.

The biggest advantage of the HK LiPo packs is the ease of assembly into a suitable "bike sized" pack without hundreds of soldered links.

Yes, lots of cells requires good design for a practical build. The easiest I've seen is cells packed vertically with braid running along the top of the cells and looking at the battery bay depth there seems enough space for that.

...together with a pair of "locating" pins at the rear end.

The loose lid is an interesting approach but I can't figure out how the locating pins would work. Any chance you can post another picture?

 

[Hillhater]

.....With Panasonics this capacity could probably fit in the battery bay, weigh about half as much and be untroubled by a 20A load..

Ken,
I have a bunch of laptop 18650's that i have used for "dummy" fitting trials.
Even keeping the JCar project box's (90 x 150mm), i can fit 40 cells in each box easily, and i know the 3 box's fit inside the battery bay, ..So thats 120 cells @ 3.1 Ahr = 1.375 kWhr, or 38Ahr at 36 volt pack. !
If i dont use the box's, but simply build for max number of cells, i'm sure i could get well over 40 Ahr in there !
BUT.. as you point out , that would represent a major investment as those cells are retailing at > $10 each !
( Price/capacity is another part of the puzzle (compromise ?) that has to be juggled with these cells....unless your name is Packer !)
As i have rarely wanted for more range than my 15Ahr pack supplies, i wont be planning on a 100+ cell pack, but more like a 60cell, 20Ahr pack that gives me a little more range, 18-20 amps ( 1C) continuous, 30A (2C) bursts and only weighs 3kg.
.. now to find a more sensible priced source for good (genuine ) Cells !

Ken, if you are seriously going to go with 18650's, i suggest you read some of the pack build threads in the "Battery Tech" forum. for some cheaper sources and options on cell choice. Whilst having a local supply has many advantages, there is a limit as to how much i am prepared to pay for that luxury.
Some guys are paying a little as <$3 per cell for quality ( LG D1 3Ahr) new cells !

 

[Ken Taylor]

...Ken, if you are seriously going to go with 18650's...

You've presented a convincing argument, but I've just bought the new Zippys and I was hoping to wait for and copy your implementation as I half did with the JayCar box. I'm also still hopeful for a picture of the

...pair of "locating" pins at the rear end.

Fabricating the pack scares me. Spot welding looks easiest. I was aiming for Zippys on a wooden bike I'm trying

but now would prefer 18650s.

Some guys are paying a little as <$3 per cell for quality ( LG D1 3Ahr) new cells !

They are tested as 2.8 AH. So 70 would give you a genuine 20AH @ 36V which is 3.3kg of cells at half the Energy/$ of 20C Zippys. Looks good.

 

[tonyontopofabighill]

]Fabricating the pack scares me. Spot welding looks easiest. I was aiming for Zippys on a wooden bike I'm trying

Can somebody please tell me how to add a quote. THis was my failed attempt above.

Cheers,
Tony.

 

[Hillhater]

Can somebody please tell me how to add a quote.
Cheers,
Tony.

Just left click on the "QUOTE" button in red at the top RH side of the post you want to quote from.
That will open up a reply window with the quote already entered ready for you to add your own text along with the quote.

 

[tonyontopofabighill]

Can somebody please tell me how to add a quote.
Cheers,
Tony.

Just left click on the "QUOTE" button in red at the top RH side of the post you want to quote from.
That will open up a reply window with the quote already entered ready for you to add your own text along with the quote.

Thanks HH