Best high quality 40 amp CONTROLLER for Bafang 1000 watt motor ???

[JettPilot]

I see a million cheap controllers and other items all over the internet Does anyone know of a source for good quality parts ??? I am not looking for crazy expensive custom parts, just good quality at a fair price... Specifically I am looking for:

1. CONTROLLER: High amperage, somewhere around 40 amps using a standard 48 volt 20 Amp Hour battery, QAULITY controller with good effective programming that works already built in to pair with a Bafang 1000 watt hub motor.

2. I would also like to find a good quality hall sensor motorcycle type full TWIST THROTTLE for it.

Thanks !!!

 

[amberwolf]

I see a million cheap controllers other items all over the internet I am looking for a high amperage, somewhere around 40 amps, QAULITY controller with good effective programming

Some things to consider:

What specific things do you need to be programmable, and in what way? And does it have to do this via an android or apple app, or via a computer setup program, or some other method?

Do you need it to support a display? If so, what specific things does that need to show you, and what other functions does it need to have?

What voltage range do you need the controller to operate within?

I would also like to find a good quality motorcycle type full TWIST THROTTLE for it.

There are a couple of ways to get those.

You can use things like the Domino or Magura, but they are expensive. The Domino comes in hall or pot, but the Magura is only a potentiometer throttle, which aren't directly supported by most of the medium-lower-power controllers (such as the 40A range of stuff). You usually need to add a resistor to it's ground and it's 5v supply to force it's output to be within the usual hall sensor input range these controllers expect.

Or you can use hall-type cable-operated throttles, which are a box with the hall sensor/etc moved by a mechanical cable pull that connects to a regular motorcycle throttle grip, or anything else that can pull the cable thru the necessary range. This leaves you with a lot more options for the grip itself. The COTs are cheap, about $8-$15; I've used them on my SB Cruiser for several years now (with a metal ATV thumb throttle for one, and a regular ebrake lever for the other).



For where to find quality stuff, it first depends on exactly what you want to get (what you need it to do), and your definition of quality, and your budget.

 

[calab]

Lyen has good quality controllers that you can program. 40a seems reasonable, surely he's got something for you.
I dont mind a good quality generic controller without programming capabilities, I buy from the same place Greentime on the Ali.
Grintech has some good quality controllers, all the Phase-"RUNNER" with reasonable power rating suiting your 40a no doubt, then you can add more features later if you want with a Cycle Analyst and real torque sensing bb's.

 

[JettPilot]

Some things to consider:

What voltage range do you need the controller to operate within?


For where to find quality stuff, it first depends on exactly what you want to get (what you need it to do), and your definition of quality, and your budget.

Thank you for the information !!!!

1. The setup will be for a standard 48 Volt 20 Amp Hour battery. 1000 watt Bafang motor.
2. I most definitely want a Hall sensor on the throttle, with no mechanical cables.
3. I do not need to program the controller myself. I am looking for a controller with good programming already built in. The controller I have now has a crazy long delay on the throttle that I hate. It also has really poor current and speed limiting capability, those modes do not seem to work at all.

 

[E-HP]

You may get better advice if you can more clearly define what you're after. Can you provide a link to your existing controller for a baseline? Maybe a full list of your complaints would also help to clarify what you want.

So far I'm getting you want the best high quality 40A controller that is just good quality at a fair price. You want good effective programming already built in.
Your complaints are long throttle delay and poor current and speed limiting capability.

Not sure what you consider "good" quality, "fair" price, "effective" programming, or what you mean by "throttle delay" (slow acceleration; no response then kicks in, etc.), or "poor" current and speed limiting "capability" (are you changing these often or are you trying to dial down the performance?). Folks use these terms a lot, with different things in mind. Do you have a budget?

 

[electric_nz]

I’ve just bought the KTS12SN from BMS Battery as this apparently has the highest eRPM in a cheap controller, will report back.

 

[999zip999]

I take it you're willing to go with an external controller and there's no such thing as a regular 48 volt 20ah battery. It could be a battery capable of 30 amps or 200 amps. This all depends is what's inside.
That being said can you give us a link to your battery ?

 

[999zip999]

I just looked at Luna cycle they had a $30 throttle they sell a lot of bafang stuff they probably have a controller for you as they have thousand and 1500 watt
Em3ev
Bafang USA
California e-bikes
All sale bafang

 

[Bengy22]

I've seen people use cheap vesc's like the flipsky 75100 or the better quality ubox 100a model. It's not going to be plug and play though as you will need to do the wiring yourself and then tune the motor through the vesc software. I think you should be able to use its autotune feature and I'm sure some communities like ES or the HV discord that could help you with issues. Other diy controllers I thought of is the grin phaserunnner and nucular 6f.

If you want something more plug and play you should be looking at the lunacycle ludi v2 vesc (but good luck getting them to sell you one) or one of the bac855 kits like from High Voltage.

 

[amberwolf]

3. I do not need to program the controller myself. I am looking for a controller with good programming already built in. The controller I have now has a crazy long delay on the throttle that I hate. It also has really poor current and speed limiting capability, those modes do not seem to work at all.

Then what you should do is define the job you need it to do for you, and exactly how you want it to do that job, under what specific conditions, and what specific features you require the controller to have, and how you want it to behave in those specific situations.

Just sit down and think about exactly how you ride, under what conditions, and all the things that annoy you about how things work now, and how you wish they worked instead. Then think about all the things you wish you had the ability to do with the bike, whether you can do them now or not.

Then make a list of all those things, in priority order of stuff you *must* have, then stuff you'd just like, so that if you can't get them all in one setup, you at least get things you can't live without.

Then you can start looking for controllers that have as many of those features as possible (because you might not find one that has *everything* you want).

For their specific purpose (or subset of general purposes), most controllers already have good programming built in; your purpose is just different from what the ones you have are intended for. Some controllers are not very good at their intended jobs, or aren't built very well so the programming is not as effective as it could be.

I suspect that the controller you're going to end up needing will be a programmable controller that you will have to set up for your specific needs, choosing the options and settings that suit your requirements. You may not find a plug-and-play controller that does exactly what you want without setting it up first.

Some thoughts on requirements based on statements so far:

For instance--the delay on the throttle: Are you looking for something that has instant response under all situations regardless of conditions?

Sometimes the "delay" people report is not a delay, but is a deadzone in the physical throttle response, where it doens't output any voltage from some portion of rotation starting at off to where it does start working, and another zone past it's WOT output to where the physical rotation stop is. That's something requiring a throttle change, usually in it's mechanics (and where cable-operated throtttles can be easier to tune), sometimes just in it's electrical response (which might require addtional parts, like the resistors on a pot throttle).

Sometimes the delay is an actual delay, caused by controllers with "soft start" and/or throttle ramping. Some controllers do this in hardware or in non-alterable setup parameters. Some have settings you can change that affect it (possibly even turning it off).

Current limiting: all brushless controllers do current limiting, at the least to the limit they are specified for. Most of them use a battery current limit, but some of them use a phase (motor) current limit. Which one are you looking for, and what limit do you need it to have? (normally the battery current limit is there to protect the battery, so you set it (or pick one with it built in) to *less* than what your battery can handle...if that is 40A as noted in your original post, then you'd pick a controller with that limit or that can be set to that. The phase current limit is there to protect the motor, either from overheating or overtorque conditions, either of which can damage the motor--normally you find this limit only on FOC controllers, which typically must be setup by the user for their specific system, usage, and motor, and then tuned to behave as required--they're not really plug and play but they perform better and more efficiently and are usually more customizable.

Speed limiting: what exactly do you need it to limit, and how, and to what? Speed limits in controllers are often an on/off thing; when it reaches whatever limit it has built in it just cuts motor power. As soon as it drops below the limit, it reengages. Under some conditions like up a hill, it can shudder because it's kicking on and off constantly. Some might be more like the Cycle Analyst form ebikes.ca, where there is a tunable feedback loop to allow you to set it so it doesn't oscillate like that when you're operating right up at the limit under various conditions.


Speaking of the CA, if you have a generic throttle-operated controller that otherwise does what you want, you can use the CA to do all the limiting, throttle interpretation, etc., as long as the controller does not have any throttle ramping and responds instantly to throttle input so it will do exactly what the CA "tells" it to do.

 

[JettPilot]

Sometimes the "delay" people report is not a delay, but is a deadzone in the physical throttle response, where it doens't output any voltage from some portion of rotation starting at off to where it does start working, and another zone past it's WOT output to where the physical rotation stop is.

Current limiting: all brushless controllers do current limiting, at the least to the limit they are specified for. Most of them use a battery current limit, but some of them use a phase (motor) current limit.

Hi AmberWolf,

Thank you for the detailed information. I am very familiar with electronic speed controllers on planes and drones, where the programming is brilliant and does exactly what it says it will do. The whole electric bicycle thing is new to me.

What I am looking for is a good performing controller with good programming built in. I definately do not want to start flashing different files or anything custom. I want to just change settings in the display to my preference. think I just got a cheap controller where very little time and effort was put into the controller.

For example, If I go from zero throttle to FULL THROTTLE while moving at 5 MPH, there is a couple seconds wait before any power is applied to the motor. This really sucks in traffic where you want to go across a street, but now have to wait an additional few seconds before it will give me any power.

My other complaint is that there is no power or current limiting. With all settings maxed out, my top speed is about 28 MPH. With all settings on low, top speed is still about 28 MPH. I literally can not detect the difference. I would love a setting where I could hold full throttle and have the controller smoothly limit the power to 250 watts...

Basically, I want a controller that is already programmed and just works like it should. If I give it full throttle, I want to see instant power.... Not crazy strong power, but start with reasonable amount of power the moment I give the full throttle command.

 

[999zip999]

I have a Bluetooth bac 855 and it is frozen or bricked and been trying to get cyc motor to really help.

 

[amberwolf]

I think I just got a cheap controller where very little time and effort was put into the controller.

That's most of them; but they typically still do what they are built to do (just that this one might not be built to do what you want it to do).

For example, If I go from zero throttle to FULL THROTTLE while moving at 5 MPH, there is a couple seconds wait before any power is applied to the motor. This really sucks in traffic where you want to go across a street, but now have to wait an additional few seconds before it will give me any power.

That can be fixed using an "instant start" type of controller, as long as the battery can handle the worst-case full current load of the system without sagging in voltage. (if the battery sags enough it won't be able to supply enough power to the motor and it will feel similar to a delayed throttle response).

My other complaint is that there is no power or current limiting. With all settings maxed out, my top speed is about 28 MPH. With all settings on low, top speed is still about 28 MPH. I literally can not detect the difference. I would love a setting where I could hold full throttle and have the controller smoothly limit the power to 250 watts...

In this case, there probably *is* no difference in what the controller is doing based on your throttle input.

In most of the ebike controllers that have multiple assist levels that I have used or read of, the throttle is an override to those levels, and not affected by them. The levels are for the pedal assist (PAS).

You'd have to check the manual for your controller (or that of any you wish to use) to see if it does this, too; if so then it is doing exactly what it is designed to do (just not what you want it to).

If you don't find a controller that does what you want, then you can pick a "dumb" controller with no display or other programmability, that just has an instant-start no-delay no-ramping throttle, and use the Cycle Analyst from ebikes.ca to do all the limiting and throttle reading/modification, and command the controller to do what you tell it to via the throttle.

Basically, I want a controller that is already programmed and just works like it should. If I give it full throttle, I want to see instant power.... Not crazy strong power, but start with reasonable amount of power the moment I give the full throttle command.

As noted before, most of the controllers do work as they are designed...but you have to pick one that is designed to do what you want. I dont' know that yours is working as designed, but it probably is.

Unfortunately we can't know what "reasonable" or "crazy strong" mean to you, so you'll have to determine what those are and find an appropriately powerful controller to match those, under the specific riding conditions / terrain you need this to happen with the motor/bike/battery/rider weight/etc you have.


In your case, we know for sure you want an instant-start controller with no throttle ramping.

You also probably want one that has no PAS input, or otherwise is stated to operate so that any assist level control that it has will vary the *throttle* response, not just the PAS response. Since you don't want to program it you'll need a "dumb" one that has no settings you can change in it, which often means one with no display (some with displays don't have any settings to change, which means no programming to set it up).

For easiest use I recommend one that cannot have a display or a PAS sensor, just a throttle, and only has a "3 speed switch" with non-user-settable levels, so you don't have to program anything in it at all. (some controllers' 3speed switches control speed limit, some control current limit, some control power limit, so you have to get the right version of controller for your needs).


If you go with one that has programmable power (watts) or current (amps) for the various assist levels via it's display so that you can get exactly the amount of assist you want on each level, it adds some complication to setting it up but gives you better control over what it does for you.


Which of these options sounds more useful to you?


How much power the controller will need to do what you want we haven't determined for certain, but as you've set a 40A request for that, we can go with that.

Some thoughts on acceleration vs available current:

It takes a certain amount of current to create a certain amount of torque (which is what most people interpret as "power" when regarding acceleration), so you need a controller that provides enough current to the motor and a battery that can provide the current to the controller without sagging in voltage, to give you enough torque to satisfy the acceleration demand you have.

Most often, a 30-40A controller at 48v with a common hubmotor in a 26"-ish wheel will give sufficient acceleration for the average needs. Some people only need a 20A controller for their needs, and others will need 100A or more. (on my SB Cruiser heavy-cargo trike, a 20A controller would probably not even be able to start me from a stop by itself, and would probably take me a mile to get from 5mph to 20mph...while about 80A will get me from 0-20mph in around 5 seconds or less when unloaded, and up to 30 seconds with a heavy enough load.

 

[JettPilot]

If you don't find a controller that does what you want, then you can pick a "dumb" controller with no display or other programmability,

Hi Amberwolf,

I am afraid I was not clear on this point. I ABSOLUTELY WANT a display, with the ability to set lots of different options. I love a really great display with lots of relevant information like speed, watts or current being used, voltage, etc. etc.

What I do not want is to have to find, download, and then flash different custom firmware written by the community. I know they do good work, but that is just more effort than I want to put into it.

You seem to know a lot about this, so let me ask you this. Which controller would you buy if your bike had: 1000 Watt, 48 Volt , Bafang motor with a 20 Amp Hour battery ?? I do not even know where to find any yet. If you could make some recommendations of a few and I could go over the features, etc and pick one that would be great.

 

[amberwolf]

I am afraid I was not clear on this point. I ABSOLUTELY WANT a display, with the ability to set lots of different options. I love a really great display with lots of relevant information like speed, watts or current being used, voltage, etc. etc.

Ah, well, being able to set options is (at least here) often called programmabilty, and setting them is often called programming. Hence the confusion. Sorry about that.

In that case, the KT and Lishui controllers are probably good bets; which version depends on exactly what behavior you want and what feature sets and power level. I'm not sure of their behavior regarding assist level vs throttle control, though--that is still likely just like the one you have now, where throttle is an override to all limiting. You would need to check the controller/display set you're interested in to be sure it supports throttle being limited by the assist levels the same way the PAS would be (whether or not you use the PAS or install a sensor for it).

If they do support this, they're common and not too expensive, and likely to be better quality than the average generic controller, and are well-known and pretty well documented around the web.

(and you have the future option of going with community firmware if you ever find the need for it to give you a feature you have to have that isn't in the OEM fw :lol: but you don't *have* to do that to use them).

You seem to know a lot about this, so let me ask you this. Which controller would you buy if your bike had: 1000 Watt, 48 Volt , Bafang motor with a 20 Amp Hour battery ?? I do not even know where to find any yet. If you could make some recommendations of a few and I could go over the features, etc and pick one that would be great.

The exact controller (power level, etc) depends on what the bike is used for, and under what specific conditions, etc. If you want a good guesstimate of what your controller needs to be able to supply the motor (and what the battery has to supply the controller), you can use the ebikes.ca motor simulator to experiment and make guesstimates based on your actual riding conditions/etc,

But for myself, I would (and do) use a dumb generic throttle-only instant-start controller with no display and no programmability, that is just always at it's max capabilities. Sinewave (non-FOC) is quietest, trap/square is sometimes cheaper but noisier under load. Many SW controllers are "dual mode" so they run in SW when using a sensored motor and it all works right, but fall back to T/S mode if a sensor fails or used with sensored.

Right now I'm using two controllers, one on each rear wheel of the 14s/52v SB Cruiser trike: On the right is a generic Dogman Dan sent me some years back (which is T/S); it's closest present equivalent is probably a 15 or 18 FET Greentime 30-40A.

Greentime controllers

.

endless-sphere.com

The other is a similar-age 30A 12FET Grinfineon (which is dual-mode); unfortunatley Grin Tech doesn't carry any of that series of controllers anymore, focusing instead on the Phaserunner family of FOC controllers (which while nice are quite expensive and being FOC require a fair bit of setup and tuning to work with any particular motor / system). If I could get them I'd use a pair of 40A-60A Grinfineons or whatever controller Grin built them off of, they'd do what I need them to.



Then I would (and do) use the Cycle Analyst v3.x from Grin Tech ebikes.ca to do all the limiting, "assist levels", and control modulation, so it just sends the right throttle output to the controller to do what I want based on whatever inputs I make to the CA from my own throttle and PAS (I use cadence to control motor output with the throttle as backup / "go lever" when I can't get started via pedals), modulated by the settings I've chosen in the CA for any limiting (I only use speed limiting rather than power or current, and only that because ebikes are limited to 20mph here).

Depending on *exactly* how you want the bike to operate, and the specifics of how you want the assist levels to work and change bike behavior, and how many levels you want, etc., you can setup the CA to do quite a lot, and in a much more user-controllable way than any of the controllers I've dealt with so far.

The CA doesn't require anything outside it's own display and two buttons to set it up...but it is *easier* to do using the PC-based setup software and the GrinTech serial-USB cable you can order with it, as you can also experiment with many kinds of and variations of settings by saving them as files in the setup program, and just uploading different ones to try out different things. Also makes it possible to backup your working settings to "instantly" put back on a new CA if you ever break the original.

Some people don't like the 2-line text display of the CA, and want something full of colorful graphics...but despite it's "ancient" look, it does what most people need it to, and it does give you all the information you listed, plus Wh/mile(km) and other battery-usage stats (and does bidirectional current measurement, so can be used to monitor charging / regen as well as discharging).

(see the info page link at the end of the post for images of all the other screens of info, and the setup screens)



It is *not* plug and play, however. You do have to wire it up as needed to your system; in your case that should be very simple, with just throttle input, throttle output to your controller, battery power input and current-measuring shunt (all one piece if you get the SA version), wheel speed sensor (already wired in to the SA version), and whatever handlebar controls you may want to use to change presets or modify a control limit as you ride. (Grin sells those that plug right in to the CA, but you can make your own or buy them elsewhere and wire them in).




Then you have to go thru every menu and set it up for your specific usage. THere are manuals and videos and forum threads to help with learning how to do this. If you skip things, it may not behave as desired, because there are multiple parts of it that interact with each other, feedback loops, etc., that need to be tuned to your usage. It can take a little bit to get it working just like you want, but once you do, you just backup or write down all your settings, and go ride. For my system it didn't take much to get it working, and I just fine tuned settings as I rode for the first little while till it did what I wanted. I havent' messed with settings in quite a while now (there's actually an upgrade FW to give a couple features I want that I haven't tried yet because it works like it is :lol: ).

It's not perfect, and it doesn't do *everything* I wish it did, but it probably does everything you need it to.

Cycle Analyst V3 - Grin Products - Product Info

The Cycle Analyst display is our first flagship product released in 2006 and now in its 3rd generation. While the hardware design may be showing its age, it still has capabilities and functionalities that are unmatched by modern ebike systems with their pretty colour screens. This device also...

ebikes.ca

 

[JettPilot]

In that case, the KT and Lishui controllers are probably good bets; which version depends on exactly what behavior you want and what feature sets and power level. Sinewave (non-FOC) is quietest, trap/square is sometimes cheaper but noisier under load. Many SW controllers are "dual mode" so they run in SW when using a sensored motor and it all works right, but fall back to T/S mode if a sensor fails or used with sensored.

(I only use speed limiting rather than power or current, and only that because ebikes are limited to 20mph here).

Hi AmberWolf,

Thank you for the detailed information. There were even a few things in there that I did not know that I needed to know This gives me a good place to start looking, I will let you know what controller I find out there.

Given that you mentioned the speed limit, I looked at your location, and not only are we in the same local bubble of Orion, you are practically next door !!! I thought all the Ebike fanatics were in California Do you ride in this heat ??? I have been out a few times, but I seem to be the only one out there on the paths and trails... Once after I was testing max speed, the motor was too hot to touch when I got back, so I am taking it easy to keep the temperature within reason.

 

[amberwolf]

My trike(s) and bikes have always been my transportation. I don't want or need a car (though there are certainly times I have considered enclosing the trike and putting an air conditioner on it :lol: I did actually have a plan and collected some parts to build an enclosed A/C'd trailer to take multiple dogs somewhere at once, but stuff happened and the only one I have left doesn't go anywhere so it would not get used, if she does have to go somewhere she'll fit in the back of the trike).

So I ride the trike to work and back, use it to get my groceries, etc. Almost all my riding is on the streets (and since there are few bike lanes it's often in traffic).

If your motor is that hot, it's likely either got the wrong phase/hall wiring combo driving it, or the job it's doing for you is overloading it's design. (such as it being wound for a higher speed for the voltage it's supplied with than it's being used at, leading to inefficiency causing excessive heating)

Even the "500watt" hubmotor on the right side of the trike, which is being run at less than that continuously but with spikes of up to about four times it's rating during starts from a stop, doesn't get too hot to touch, though it is often hot enough I wouldn't want to give it long hugs.

I *have* (back on Dayglo Avenger) repeatedly overheated a small 350w geared hubmotor enough to cause hall problems and eventually melt solder off the hall board, but it was at much higher than it's rated power for long periods, and at slow speeds. I also eventually broke its clutch at startup from a stop because of this overloading. Surprised I never damaged the plastic gears.



It's quite a long trip up from Tucson, but if you would like to come by and see how my trike works (to see what the CA is like, etc), you're welcome to. I happen to be off work all of this week to get a bunch of yard and house work done that I have been too sick to do for many months (all I could manage was working and then resting at home most days). I'm just south of Metrocenter almost on the I17.