raylo32
100 kW
Remember, Chalo is a big fan of down tube and thumb shifters while the rest of us are wasting our $ on STI and such. 
Bikeon, "cassette drive" torque sensing motor
- Thread starter adrian783
- Start date
Chalo
100 TW
Mess around with machinery of all kinds for long enough, and you can recognize some issues before they manifest. Inside-out toothed belt is a tell.
Also, in the bike world when you see something unlike anything you've seen before, there's a reason for that. Everything has already been tried on bikes; stuff that works/lasts/is cost-effective will already be familiar to one degree or another.
I really do hope folks try out this thing in quantity. At worst, they learn a lesson about novelty; at best it develops into a product that's ready for prime time.
Chalo
100 TW
I had car trouble at one of my workplaces today, and had to use a bike I built up for donation to a gigantic refugee, to go to my other job. It has 5 speed index stem shifters that are almost 40 years old, well-used derailleur and freewheel, etc. It shifts perfectly every time. Let me know how your stuff is doing at that age!Remember, Chalo is a big fan of down tube and thumb shifters while the rest of us are wasting our $ on STI and such.
If you get bored wearing out regular old parts, maybe try these. I bet they'll entertain you with new ways to not work right.
First Ride: Rotor Uno hydraulic drivetrain
Rotor’s Uno hydraulic drivetrain offers fast and precise shifting and is a viable alternative to electronic and mechanical systems.
velo.outsideonline.com
spaceman
10 W
I think that this is some sort of misunderstanding, and here is why.
The Capstan effect, which you mentioned, is related to regular belts (such as V-belts, for example), which rely on friction between the belt surface and the pulley (drive or driven). Timing belts use teeth that mesh with the teeth on the pulley (drive or driven), so friction is not a factor (at least, not a significant one).
I think when you say 'inside-out belt' and mention the Capstan effect, you are assuming that the timing belt teeth in the BikeOn application do not mesh with the teeth of the red wheel (we call it the rotor), but rather the flat side of the belt rubs against the rotor and relies on friction to deliver the torque from the driving pulley to the rotor.That is the only explanation I have for the 'inside-out belt' phrase.
To clarify, the BikeOn timing belt application is classical: there is an entrance point where the toothed side of the belt meshes with the rotor, then the teeth mesh with the rotor and exit the meshing area.The wrap angle might be smaller than what you have seen, but it is a typical timing belt application.To make things clear, here are the sequential steps that explain the timing belt application of BikeOn:
As you can see, there is nothing 'inside-out' or unusual about the BikeOn timing belt application. The teeth mesh with the teeth on the rotor, just as in any other application.During the course of the design work, we have had multiple consultations with engineers from Gates Corporation, Continental Industries' belts divisions, and more. We have run multiple finite element analyses and other extensive calculations. We have devices out in the field in the hands of our users; we have conducted lifetime, vibration, and many other tests.
My team and I have put our hearts and souls into this product, hoping it will be useful for many.
We have older users who either don't want to or can't convert their bikes into electric ones for a variety of reasons (including a sentimental attachment to a bike, which was a gift from mom for an 18th birthday and has been with him ever since for over 50 years now—we have such cases as well). This device brings them the joy of riding their bikes again and having an active lifestyle.
Seeing that is a huge reward in itself for us. Probably one of the biggest rewards.
Chalo
100 TW
Rubber belt teeth do climb over belt sprocket teeth when static belt tension is insufficient or when they're pushed to the limit. Capstan effect constricts the belt onto the sprocket to reduce the incidence of slippage/skipping and the rate of wear. Without it, the belt's power transmission capability is derated. Hopefully there's enough surplus capacity that such derating doesn't result in premature failure or unreliable operation.
Damn dude, i wanna buy your motor now. This seems more well thought out than suspected. I just need a timing belt cover and a dyno curve before i feel good about the buy.
ScooterMan101
1 MW
Volts and Amp hours of that bottle battery ? ( watt hours as well )
A display or two option in the future would be good , a small one and a mid size one like on the Befang Kits .
Once the price goes down I can really see a market for this for someone who has a good quality ( $$$$) Road Bike .
Casual riders with Hybrid bikes as well .
Wonder how it performs up the steep mountain roads Like Mount Hamilton and Hwy 9 from Saratoga to Hwy 35, etc. ?
or it better on more on flat areas and low rolling hills .
Thermal Roll Back ?
It is good to see new Ideas , For someone with a good quality Road Bike , and/or a bike with a press fit bottom bracket
and/or non standard and / or 130 mm dropouts , this could be a DIY solution that would finally work with their bikes .
A display or two option in the future would be good , a small one and a mid size one like on the Befang Kits .
Once the price goes down I can really see a market for this for someone who has a good quality ( $$$$) Road Bike .
Casual riders with Hybrid bikes as well .
Wonder how it performs up the steep mountain roads Like Mount Hamilton and Hwy 9 from Saratoga to Hwy 35, etc. ?
or it better on more on flat areas and low rolling hills .
Thermal Roll Back ?
It is good to see new Ideas , For someone with a good quality Road Bike , and/or a bike with a press fit bottom bracket
and/or non standard and / or 130 mm dropouts , this could be a DIY solution that would finally work with their bikes .
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raylo32
100 kW
This does seem better thought out than some others... looking at you Lightest... and the form factor and interface are remarkably clever. I might be inclined to pop one of these on my Lynskey gravel bike... only problems are the cost (hopefully that will come down some) and that I only have 52v batteries. I wouldn't want to risk frying ~$1000.
spaceman
10 W
It is in development queue. I see it as an optional light plastic cover, which snaps to the device.
We have spent quite some time (years, I should say), building and testing tens of different prototypes.
spaceman
10 W
36V 7Ah = 252 Wh nominal, about 280 Wh fully charged.
Noted, thanks. We will offer them at some point.
Here is some example (not really a mountain road, of course):
There is a sufficient cooling path for the motor and electronics. The device monitors the motor and electronics temperature as well and has thermal runaway protections.
More of the heat comes from the speed, not of the torque production. So slow climb with a lot of torque is better in that sense than very fast ride with low torque.
spaceman
10 W
Mid drives have their own benefits. In my view we know how to build motor+transmission packages which are very lightweight and produce huge amount of toque, no problems there. The issue which I see is the torque delivery and management. Mid drives use chains for torque delivery, which is another system member prone to wear and tear and has its own limits of force it can deliver.
Not yet really. We are a small team, our focus at the moment is our customers.
I agree with the critique of mid drives and their chain interface issues. It feels like a compromised design without some thicker chain and less gears to accompany the motor.
Great to hear you have a cover coming on the way, that'd make it feasible for me, out here in dustville.
Any idea on the efficiency of the drivetrain? i'm betting the peak efficiency is in the mid 80% range.
Great to hear you have a cover coming on the way, that'd make it feasible for me, out here in dustville.
Any idea on the efficiency of the drivetrain? i'm betting the peak efficiency is in the mid 80% range.
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spaceman
10 W
I think it has its place and it is good for many applications. My concern is the high torque delivery.
Yes, that is the case with 48V system. It is slightly lower for 36V system.
spaceman
10 W
Here is a video of the device in action under load, on a flat surface and going uphill.
I will soon post another video with details about the design and materials used for both the device and the battery pack.
raylo32
100 kW
OK, guys, I pretty much love this thing. It makes it simple to electrify a bike with no work, keep the entire high quality OEM drivetrain and Q-factor, and allows easy and fast reversal of the process. The one thing that I dislike is needing the phone to display speed and to change assist levels. I don't and won't ever ride with a big old phone stuck on my handlebars. So, IMO, the BikeOn needs a separate display that can provide those basic functions... or perhaps get those functions ported to a Garmin Edge via BT. Although Garmin would probably make that option too $$.
spaceman
10 W
Here is another video, where I tried to answer some of the questions I received:
Please let me know if there are any questions.
spaceman
10 W
Thanks for the comment. A separate display is in the development plan, but it will take a while until we release it.
raylo32
100 kW
I would like to see a very simple display, something like an EggRider/SW-102 and have that really simplified to just doing the assist levels and speedo display. No need to over complicate it and try to do too much with it. Then continue to use the phone app via BT when not riding to make the more detailed settings and preferences. Just a suggestion.
For instance, CYC Photon uses a SW-102 and it works... but IMO they try to do too much with it and have a million settings you can make in it... and also with their app. It's been a while since I played with many settings but IIRC there were some you could make in the app and some you had to make in the SW-102. Arrrrggh. I guess I don't see the need for making a bunch of settings both ways/either way. Just make the settings in the app and have the display for in-ride use. IMO.
For instance, CYC Photon uses a SW-102 and it works... but IMO they try to do too much with it and have a million settings you can make in it... and also with their app. It's been a while since I played with many settings but IIRC there were some you could make in the app and some you had to make in the SW-102. Arrrrggh. I guess I don't see the need for making a bunch of settings both ways/either way. Just make the settings in the app and have the display for in-ride use. IMO.
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raylo32
100 kW
Oh, one other thing the display needs is some measure of battery status. A simple voltage reading would be fine for me, or perhaps a SOC reading. Just so you know when you need to head back to the barn.
Yeah i'd like the minimum of a cycle analyst v1:
Speed ( in mph or kph ), battery voltage, amps, total watts.
If i didn't have two motors in my 'to test/waiting for parts' queue then i would pick one of these up next.
Speed ( in mph or kph ), battery voltage, amps, total watts.
If i didn't have two motors in my 'to test/waiting for parts' queue then i would pick one of these up next.
raylo32
100 kW
I'd pick one up now if it had a way to be fully functional without needing a phone on my handlebars. That qualifies as a showstopper for me. I guess I could have the app running with the phone in a pocket... but then wouldn't be able to change assist levels or monitor battery status without stopping to pull out the phone.
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Assist levels, speedo, voltage, amps and watts... that's 5 items, with assist and watts working well as icons but the others need to be numeric. The drive's mainly for on-road but the display has to be legible quickly, in rough stretches and darkness, so it needs a bigger screen than an Eggrider, constantly backlit, and with space for decent battery life. (Press to view is a pain on eventful roads and can shorten product life.)
How about these two phones as dedicated displays smaller than a KT LCD-3? They might help to let BikeOn stay focussed during the tricky ramp-up period.
Unihertz Jelly Pro 3GB+32GB 4G
Melrose 4G 3.4'' Quad Core Android 8.1 2GB+32G
That's a great move. New products with proprietary batteries bring a finite life to the product and often a shorter life to the startup itself.
Is there a way to lock BikeOn onto a bike, ideally that can be left in place? In such a way that it obviously wouldn't work if removed, rather than a simple loop tab?
