Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

Hello Dave,
I'm dealing with my first electric bike and I was wondering if this is the right throttle for the cycle analyst.

http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/t-thumb.html

I'm not sure if the CA has a 3-pin JST Connector.
Thanks
 
Yep, it plugs right in. I think all the Grin components are standardized. You'll have to adjust the SETUP THROT IN->min input and max input inside the CA setup menu for that particular throttle:

http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/cycle-analyst-3.html
 
https://vimeo.com/164070308

not sure if that link works or how to embed a video?

maybe this...

<iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/164070308" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen allowfullscreen></iframe>
<p><a href="https://vimeo.com/164070308">Mud Fun and spill</a> from <a href="https://vimeo.com/user5319913">Richard Ham Williams</a> on <a href="https://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>

but this will give some of you an idea as to speed and sound of the Tangent 20:1 gearbox mated to a 3220 motor....and how not to traverse a puddle :)
 
Agreed, a fair amount of wind noise but even at low speeds it's hard to get the noise to be picked up....it really is not loud...they'll be more footage soon!

Sounds like an unloaded power drill :)

Yes, that water was bloody cold! Managed to snap off the chain tesioner there too...
 
lightrush said:
@HamsFitness is this with the new transmission?
Click to expand...

If by new, you mean 20:1 reduction then yes that is what I am running.

This is a top notch kit and great fun once you get used to the wheelie desire from the torque the motor produces!

I have currently broken the motor chain tensioner when I fell off but have cowboyed together a fix until my new ones from Dave arrive.

I am going to try and fab a cover for both the motor chain and the ESC just for a little piece of mind as I ride wet and muddy, often.

I am also thinking of a something to prevent the dropped chain from slipping between the two front chain rings as that tends to jam up the motor chain and flatten the chain tensioner....the two times that has happened has meant I had to remove the chain rings to unbind it all...I should mention that this has only happened on harsh and bumpy offroad conditions.

Loving the kit so far and can only recommend you buy one sharpish!
 
Dave, are the 20:1 and 40:1 reduction gears easily swappable? If we bought both of them with the kit, can the user easily switch back and forth?
 
Sweet video. Get a clutched derailleur to stop chain drops. I had 5 dropped chain in the first 20 miles on the bike. You can yank on it and get it out usually with some work. When I switched to the XT clutched derailleur the chain drops ended. 80 miles without a drop. Also running a race face narrow wide front ring.
 
FastJohnny said:
Sweet video. Get a clutched derailleur to stop chain drops. I had 5 dropped chain in the first 20 miles on the bike. You can yank on it and get it out usually with some work. When I switched to the XT clutched derailleur the chain drops ended. 80 miles without a drop. Also running a race face narrow wide front ring.
Click to expand...

Currently I am running a 1x9 set up with A narrow wide 38t race face ring and so far as I can find...no clutch derailleurs are available for 9 speed, which sucks. I am exploring a chain tensioner that attaches to the chain stay.

I have also heard that certain sram 9 speed shifters work with shimano 10 speed clutched derailleurs but am uncertain which with which!?

As for the other poster asking if the 40:1 and 20:1 reductions are interchangeable: I asked the same thing and Dave advised that yes they are with little effort. I am sure Dave will expand more on that though. Although I am not sure running a 40:1 reduction with a 3220 motor is wise due to the MASSIVE amounts of torque that would create...it's a wheelie machine as it is with the 20:1...40:1 may well make it too nuts to ride in low gears :)
 
Any news on Tangent & Pedal Assist (PAS) that anyone could share?
 
HamsterPower said:
Any news on Tangent & Pedal Assist (PAS) that anyone could share?
Click to expand...

It has been done. I am finishing up a road/commuter build with Tangent and torque PAS. It's glorious. I have a THUN BB wired to the CA, complete with ebrake and gearsensor. With dampened throttle rampup settings the motor power application is fairly smooth. The system lets me zip through ascents and descents with 30-40kph while the power consumption sits in the 6-9Wh/km range. That's 60-90km on a typical 550Wh bottle pack. This is with power limited to 1KW and amps limited to 20A (20*50V=1KW) You could of course go full-retard and unleash the power to as much as you battery could provide and set the PAS assist factor way up. I'm currently using an assist factor of 2x or 4x human power configurable via rocker switch on handlebars. AFAIK I'm the first to adapt a Tangent for torque PAS, so if you have questions - shoot.

This is what the unfinished build looked like 2 weeks back:

DSC_3341.JPG

It didn't have ebrake or gearsensor back then and it used a twist throttle. Now it has both and a left thumb throttle.
 
Nicely done sir!

I'd be interested to know what throttle ramp settings you're now using: ramp up, fast ramp threshold etc...i do like the idea of pedal assist with my kit...
 
These are my current ramp settings:

ThrO-> Up Rate: 0.35 ms/s
ThrO-> Fast Rate: 0.10 ms/s
ThrO-> Fast Thrsh: 5.0A
WGain: 10W as suggested by the unofficial CAv3 manual
(Not used in PAS but relevant to xxRates when using throttle) AGain: 10A

You may notice that my Fast Rate is lower than the Up Rate. That's because I'm experimenting with using the Fast Rate as "slow rate." That is by increasing the Fast Threshold to a level that will be reached only when the motor has actively engaged the drivetrain, I can use the FR as a throttle ramp for "drivetrain engagement," and control how smoothly the motor applies torque to the freehub. Once the motor has engaged the freehub and moving the bike (power consumption above 5A), the throttle uses the faster Up Rate to be a bit more responsive, although you can see even that's pretty tame at 0.35ms/s. I don't know if my hypothesis is correct about how this actually works since I'm not sure I feel much real difference between these settings and FR: 2.0ms/s, FT: 0.5-1.0A, which would be the traditional way to use the FR.

In any case, my goal is to have the Tangent gradually engage the drive train with as little slamming as possible so that the life of the components isn't too severely affected as well as keeping the bike more controllable during PAS.
 
Wow they couldn't be more different from my settings!

My up ramp and fast ramp are at about 4.0 and my threshold i am playing with between 1 amp and 20 amps....i am not the most sensitive at noticing the differences unless at extremes it seems.

Minimising the lash when coasting and powering back on is the goal...finding that sweet spot is tough. The only setting i can really feel a difference with is when playing with the Again..
 
Well I took reasoned approach - I said - let me see how fast do I move the throttle with my hand in order to produce smooth power application. Then how long does it take to do a full throttle swing with that speed - result was several seconds. So to get the throttle to never go faster than that, I set the up rate to 1ms / 3s, where the first is the total throttle range as per ESC spec and the second is the total time I want the throttle to take to walk the full range. So that's 0.33ms/s. In order to feel how the ramp changes the motor behavior I had to isolate the other ramp. To do that I could either set both to the same value or set the fast threshold to 0. I did the latter. And then I played with different values for up ramp in a parking lot for half an hour stopping, going, coast and going. I'm not sure of these are my final values. Once I finish up the build I'll do more testing and see if the way I use fast ramp right now (as slow ramp) is actually effective. I need to test how the fast ramp interacts with shifting with the Gearsensor. The current settings work well with it but I don't know if the FR or UR is actually used during engagement after shifting and what's used when shifting while holding the throttle. Shifting while holding the throttle doesn't work as good as shifting during PAS. Shifting with gearsensor during PAS is perfect - as if I'm shifting normally.
 
btw, before some else reads and wonders: it's V/s and not milliseconds per second. and as max voltage of the hall signal is below 5V with around 3-4V useable setting the ramp up value to 3.5 makes the throttle go from zero to 100% in around one second.
AGain and WGain have no unit at all. those are factors and are numbers.
sorry for sounding like a smart ass...
 
izeman said:
btw, before some else reads and wonders: it's V/s and not milliseconds per second. and as max voltage of the hall signal is below 5V with around 3-4V useable setting the ramp up value to 3.5 makes the throttle go from zero to 100% in around one second.
AGain and WGain have no unit at all. those are factors and are numbers.
sorry for sounding like a smart ass...
Click to expand...

The throttle output for Tangent is in RC mode which uses pulses and not volts for throttle signal. The throttle range of the ESC is from 1.0ms to 2.0ms. So a range of 1ms. With that range an up ramp of 3.5 (ms) makes throttle go from zero to 100% in 1 / 3.5 = 0.29s. Not sure why you say it's in volts but Tangent's FAQ http://tangentmotors.com/faq/ states it's in ms, my unit came configured in RC mode, and Dave can probably confirm that.

I think you may be right about the gains having no units.
 
thanks for clarification. i was sure it had to be something like that. so you're not outputting voltage, but pulses. that makes sense :)
i never had to do with RC controllers which need a different throttle input signal. so of course you're correct. for "regular" controllers which are the majority of ebike controllers, the CA output 0-5V.
 
Once I am up and running again I will play around more...not sure pedal assit will work efficiently with mine though due to the reduction of the 20:1 box...
 
Here's a video showcasing the noise of the latest, quieter 40:1 transmission. It's recorded with a high quality (Sony STM10) mic attached to a smartphone. I had to hold with my hand which is why I only recorded a short run, but I've captured most of the RPM range from low to high.

[youtube]PORlgBNIyko[/youtube]


Here's a longer audio recording with the same rig. Holding the phone in portrait is infinitely easier. :D

[youtube]VvbvztR_fI4[/youtube]
 
lightrush said:
Here's a video showcasing the noise of the latest, quieter 40:1 transmission. It's recorded with a high quality (Sony STM10) mic attached to a smartphone. I had to hold with my hand which is why I only recorded a short run, but I've captured most of the RPM range from low to high.

[youtube]PORlgBNIyko[/youtube]


Here's a longer audio recording with the same rig. Holding the phone in portrait is infinitely easier. :D

[youtube]VvbvztR_fI4[/youtube]
Click to expand...

Thanks, lightrush. Which motor are you using?
 
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