Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log
- Thread starter tangentdave
- Start date
tangentdave
1 kW
When you're on the SETUP THROT IN main menu, move the throttle (the bike won't move). Set the Max Input 0.02V below the value indicated at full throttle, then set the Fault Volt 0.2V above the indicated value. Then try the ESC again.
wyvernwaddell
1 W
Is it possible to use Grin Cyclery's Phaserunner controller with this unit? The voltage and amperage seem like they'd be good for the LiFe batteries I have -they're listed at 48v 20 amp, but nominal is 51.2 Volts and when freshly charged is closer to 59v. With the high rate BMS I can draw at 40 amp but usually limit it to 38 (and normally keep it under 20 with the MAc motor I have). The Phaserunner looks like it'd work with the 60v 30 amp battery I'm thinking about for later also. I'm on a Yuba Mundo-I don't need to pop wheelies, I just need a smooth, reliable, fairly quick mid-drive. Not worried about the noise-this beast is my commuter and I WANT them to hear me coming.
tangentdave
1 kW
The Phaserunner works fine. If you have it running now, you know what needs to be done to tune the controller for the motor. The values of the PID tuning and startup parameters are much different with an RC motor than a hub motor. The Phaserunner does not generate good startup torque from zero RPM in this setup yet. The Castle ESCs will start the bike under load no problem with a ton of startup torque, right from zero. If you're in at least a semi-appropriate gear for the situation, the HV80 will get you going, the Phaserunner will stall and really needs pedal assistance to get into the closed-loop control range. The Phaserunner does run cooler since it is controlling phase amps better and can be tuned to generate a flat torque curve all the way to redline. Because Phaserunner limits phase amps, it feels less powerful than a 'raw' HV80 ESC. We don't have great insight into the phase current with the HV80, but if we turn up the battery current limit past 60A in a 3210 setup, I can make the ESC beep indicating it initiated overcurrent protection at 120A, so the HV80 is peaking quite a bit higher phase current than our 60A battery limit.
The HV80's torque curve is larger in the low to mid RPM range then begins to fall starting about 75% redline. The Phaserunner makes the power feel a touch smoother than the HV80 in the real world. I'm having trouble getting the Phaserunner to engage the freewheel well. Field weakening is fun. ES user distric9prawn rides a Phaserunner with his Tangent.
Sorry to inform you about the noise, the gears are pretty damn quiet now.
-dave
The HV80's torque curve is larger in the low to mid RPM range then begins to fall starting about 75% redline. The Phaserunner makes the power feel a touch smoother than the HV80 in the real world. I'm having trouble getting the Phaserunner to engage the freewheel well. Field weakening is fun. ES user distric9prawn rides a Phaserunner with his Tangent.
Sorry to inform you about the noise, the gears are pretty damn quiet now.
-dave
wyvernwaddell
1 W
I guess my only question then would be can the HV80 cope with 48 volt LiFe batteries? If so, I'm sold 
tangentdave
1 kW
Easily. I run 14s which is 52V nominal, 57V fully charged. The HV80 is pretty water resistant, rain is no problem, just be gentle with the hose when you wash the bike.
wyvernwaddell
1 W
Sweet! (Off to figure out which kidney I'll need to sell)
Altair
1 kW
Dave, didn't you mean 16S instead of 14S?
16 cells of 3.6V = 57.6V
Max voltage for LiFePO4 pouches being 3.65V.
16 cells of 3.6V = 57.6V
Max voltage for LiFePO4 pouches being 3.65V.
tangentdave
1 kW
Yep, and wyvernwaddell could run 16s LiFePO4.
Altair
1 kW
He was asking about LiFe specifically, hence my comment.
LI-ghtcycle
10 MW
+1 on Selling a Kidney!
I am very impressed and hope to one day have the funds available to put one of these kits on a FS bike!
I too love the sound!
However, I appreciate you making them quieter, as we know there are those who will start objecting if they perceive it as something too powerful.
Either way, keep up the good work! 8)
I am very impressed and hope to one day have the funds available to put one of these kits on a FS bike!
I too love the sound!
However, I appreciate you making them quieter, as we know there are those who will start objecting if they perceive it as something too powerful.
Either way, keep up the good work! 8)
wyvernwaddell
1 W
tangentdave said:
Exactly what I have, actually
Oh, and I'm a 'she' 
wyvernwaddell
1 W
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I've been committed for years-just ask my family!Sean9002 said:wyvernwaddell said:Sweet! (Off to figure out which kidney I'll need to sell)
only selling one, but u have two....u gotta commit!! :lol:
wyvernwaddell
1 W
Has anyone else got one of these on a Yuba Mundo? I'm trying to figure out how I'd want to mount the bracket. It seems to me there is actually enough space BEHIND the seatpost for it, but I don't know if orientation matters here or not. Any insight would be appreciated.
tangentdave
1 kW
Orientation is unimportant, you could mount the drive against the chainstays.
wyvernwaddell
1 W
tangentdave said:
Wouldn't that put the chain tensioner on the wrong (upper) side of the chain? Or are you thinking of just flipping the mounting plates over individually? On a Yuba, if I mount it low behind the seatpost it will essentially be lying horizontal behind the crankset and mount to the frame member below where the unit would sit. There is a lot of open space back there, I figured I'd use some of it and keep the whole thing tucked out of the way if I could mount it that way. i think the 200 mm mount would work fine, but it would have to be 'mirror cut' to make the correct side face out..and might need holes drilled low on the plates for the 'below the unit' mounting strap. I could put a piece of rubber in between the motor and frame to kill vibration, or possibly come up with a custom mount to replace the strap (there's a mount point back there) to keep the unit in position.
Here's a couple pics of what I'm looking at.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7UA65P6VE4dNG03NUtvSm5JcGM
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7UA65P6VE4ddmtfRFRad2tLRzg
I see the metric ruler didn't come thru in the shot-damn reflections...
tangentdave
1 kW
Using your pics as as the point of view, the drive's output sprocket will attempt to rotate the unit clockwise about the BB while turning the front chainring CCW. The mounts don't need to change if the unit will sit above the chainstays, the unit will know no difference between the chainstays and a conventional downtube setup. It makes no matter which tube leaving the BB we rotate the unit into, the downtube, seat tube, or chainstays,
wyvernwaddell
1 W
tangentdave said:
<snort> I think I've been awake too long and overthinking things...a hazard when you work night shift a lot. Cool, then this should be easy. I might still see if I can come up with a solid mount rather than a strap though, it wouldn't be hard to make and I have that center mount point in the chainstay just sitting there doing nothing...but then again, it probably wouldn't need it.
This is gonna be fun...I should be able to order sometime in September.
NM, it looks like you already made a solid mount-I see it pictured with the barebones unit on your website. It wouldn't hit my mountpoint, but it does look like it'd fit around the boom bit in front of the actual chainstays. How wide a tube can you clamp that sucker around?
tangentdave
1 kW
Tangent/Zerode Lost Sierra race build:
-5kW (95A @ 52V, Astro 3220+TalonHV 120)
-8spd Shimano Alfine IGH
-14s LiPo, 20Ah
-188ft-lbs wheel torque @15mph; 62ft-lbs wheel torque @ 45mph (I've seen 45mph, it's gearing limited)
-51lbs
-Cane Creek Double Barrel rear
-Marzocchi 888 Ti forks
-Chris King hubs, Maxxis DHF rubber, carbon Race Face bars
Quick math calculates the output of the drive at 81ft-lbs (20:1 internal, 95A @ 8.2in-oz/amp). The primary chain is a 1:1 ratio between the motor and IGH so the hub doesn't see too much more torque than a 200lb rider can generate. (edit: the motor's 80ft-lbs goes into a 16t sprocket, the rider's 100ft-lbs goes into a 32t-ish sprocket). There is an additional secondary reduction between the wheel and hub, further reducing the stress it sees (26t IGH output, 32t at the wheel). I'm using the back half of a standard cassette for the 32t cog, the other two cogs aren't used but add some lateral strength and prevent one narrow cog from digging into the freewheel. The trigger shifter is a bit awkward on the throttle side, a left hand twist shifter is on the way.
It took 6 tries to get the mounts and chain tension to play nicely. I'm using a tension wheel on the back side and the brace between the motor and IGH is solid one piece. Tension adjustment and mounting is actually pretty easy.
What's it ride like? Soooo smooth and fast, it just keeps rolling. The rear end is unflappable, as if there were no tire at all. No squirming under power and no squat, it just goes over everything and I don't feel it, all I think about is the front.
Where would one ride such a beast? At the front of the Open Throttle class of course:
Come out and bring your bike! Chris at Eco Bike Adventures is a super nice guy and hosting the first open class ebike race. 15 miles of racing through beautiful Northern Cali? Yes. Please. Bring your bike, bring some food and beers, have a good time. See you there.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=82001
http://www.ecobikeadv.com/
-dave
-5kW (95A @ 52V, Astro 3220+TalonHV 120)
-8spd Shimano Alfine IGH
-14s LiPo, 20Ah
-188ft-lbs wheel torque @15mph; 62ft-lbs wheel torque @ 45mph (I've seen 45mph, it's gearing limited)
-51lbs
-Cane Creek Double Barrel rear
-Marzocchi 888 Ti forks
-Chris King hubs, Maxxis DHF rubber, carbon Race Face bars
Quick math calculates the output of the drive at 81ft-lbs (20:1 internal, 95A @ 8.2in-oz/amp). The primary chain is a 1:1 ratio between the motor and IGH so the hub doesn't see too much more torque than a 200lb rider can generate. (edit: the motor's 80ft-lbs goes into a 16t sprocket, the rider's 100ft-lbs goes into a 32t-ish sprocket). There is an additional secondary reduction between the wheel and hub, further reducing the stress it sees (26t IGH output, 32t at the wheel). I'm using the back half of a standard cassette for the 32t cog, the other two cogs aren't used but add some lateral strength and prevent one narrow cog from digging into the freewheel. The trigger shifter is a bit awkward on the throttle side, a left hand twist shifter is on the way.
It took 6 tries to get the mounts and chain tension to play nicely. I'm using a tension wheel on the back side and the brace between the motor and IGH is solid one piece. Tension adjustment and mounting is actually pretty easy.
What's it ride like? Soooo smooth and fast, it just keeps rolling. The rear end is unflappable, as if there were no tire at all. No squirming under power and no squat, it just goes over everything and I don't feel it, all I think about is the front.
Where would one ride such a beast? At the front of the Open Throttle class of course:
Come out and bring your bike! Chris at Eco Bike Adventures is a super nice guy and hosting the first open class ebike race. 15 miles of racing through beautiful Northern Cali? Yes. Please. Bring your bike, bring some food and beers, have a good time. See you there.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=82001
http://www.ecobikeadv.com/
-dave
wyvernwaddell
1 W
Damn, that's pretty!! Nice work! Makes me wish I lived out west...
litespeed
100 kW
This will be the drive for me one day.
Tom
Tom
tangentdave
1 kW
There's nothing too special about the hardware, the normal mounts I make were altered slight to match the lines of the Zerode frame and accommodate the H-shaped brace I made between the drive and IGH. This one is a bit chunky since it's the first one strong enough to prevent flex. Flex and twist are especially troublesome here as it will quickly cause too much slack in the chain followed by chain drops. The tension wheel is in a slot on the mount plate, same as other mounting styles I use, just extends behind the BB so I can reach the slack side of the chain. Anybody else with a zerode, this is how we'd mount it.
The 3220 sticks out a bit but I've only hit my ankle on it once, I think it's fine.
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