Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

[panurge]

I well know the basic noise of an Astro 3210 motor, that's not a silent motor, at all.
Here I can't even notice that pitch/sound.....that easily means too much db from the reduction.
Maybe it's my bias there and/or a mic effect, but it seems even not that high pitch to me, compared to a sensorless RC motor....seems like a (only relatively high pitch) 2 stroke gasser. Other than that It looks very appealing to me....

Hey Dave, giving that your system is reliable and mechanically OK (we will see the testers/customers reports on that), I would say It's exciting and very successful, executing such a complex project, to have a first production batch whit noise as the only issue....
If that's the case, you could be concentrated to a single problem, although not simple, having good chances to solve/attenuate it.

I'm all with Matt (and you I suppose :wink: ) that kind of high end drive needs to be paired with an high end motor, but if the drive will be sold also alone (although You apparently talk about to sell it, alone, only to customers that already own a 3210), would be good to have a multiple motor mounting option. Some DIYers like anyway to mod motors, and some others might intend to buy an High end drive with a cheaper motor, with a future upgrade in mind, mostly for budget limits.

Anyway a video comparing your system with a cyclone and/or an Astro Belt/chain separated drive, as said, should be the best way to evaluate its noise.

 

[macribs]

Sounds like an angry swarm of bees, higher pitch and even louder than the cyclone. I wouldn't be able to get away with it in the trails around here.

I had to watch it again, and you are right it does kind of sound like angry bees
But try to watch from here and half a minute forward. Notice when he descends and there is a bridge of some sort, some water on the track. He slows down, release the throttle and all we hear is the freewheel/tires. By ears it does not sound like level of volume changes a whole lot. Look from 2 minutes 40 seconds.

@Panurge maybe the drive units casing is dampening the high pitch from the Astro?

[youtube]mkCdpRgi9Wc[/youtube]



Edited: I did another viewing - this time with hi qual headphones rather them Chinese earplugs I usually uses on computer and yes the noise level increases as he twist the throttle. I blame old ears and cheap earplugs

But that sound signature of the drive kit does not change the way I feel about this kit. This drive kit seems to be the lightest and most compact drive unit out there. I can really see a lot of uses for this unit. Not just trail blazing up steep terrain. What about your typical San Fransisco topography? Urban riding in an area where there are nothing but ups and downs? Or for the urban rider that frequently haul big loads in a trailer - either a couple of kids on their way home from day care or heavy bags of grocery. Or both. Nice to know there ain't a hill big and steep enough to defeat you.

Or used with a 3220 - to harvest the power and transfer it in a way that makes for blitzing fast accelerations. An urban assault ride that really begs you to take her out for hooligan riding. Quick of the line in any red lights. And I am sure you all can see plenty more areas where such a small and nimble drive unit would excel.

 

[district9prawn]

I have put money down for a drive unit. I can do some comparisons against the rather noisy cyclone planetary gear head.

The youtube video in the first page of this thread with the camera on the ground sounds quite different to the trail videos.

 

[nutnspecial]

The youtube video in the first page of this thread with the camera on the ground sounds quite different to the trail videos.

Absolutely, let's give him the benefit of the doubt for crying out loud. It appears to me this is the lightest serial middrive ever?
Now I gotta get the corresponding mental image of a chasing swarm of hybrid hornets outa my head before bed.

 

[giblet]

I have put money down for a drive unit. I can do some comparisons against the rather noisy cyclone planetary gear head.

The youtube video in the first page of this thread with the camera on the ground sounds quite different to the trail videos.

I'm planning on buying one too - seems it's just what I want - but I'm going to wait for your tests!

Not sure why Dave doesn't just post better videos - should imagine he's very busy but if I had a product like this I'd be promoting it with everything I have and answering any questions like these immediately. You don't want to put off potential customers by lack of support and information - but that's exactly what's happening in my case.

 

[panurge]

@Panurge maybe the drive units casing is dampening the high pitch from the Astro?

Yes, probably that's the case......

 

[nutnspecial]

I have put money down for a drive unit. I can do some comparisons against the rather noisy cyclone planetary gear head.

The youtube video in the first page of this thread with the camera on the ground sounds quite different to the trail videos.

I'm planning on buying one too - seems it's just what I want - but I'm going to wait for your tests!

Not sure why Dave doesn't just post better videos - should imagine he's very busy but if I had a product like this I'd be promoting it with everything I have and answering any questions like these immediately. You don't want to put off potential customers by lack of support and information - but that's exactly what's happening in my case.

I don't know him, and the sound very well may need improvement and/or be a drawback, but I believe a good product will shine regardless of the initial impressions by us.

Kudo's Dave.

 

[Fredorbea]

This kit looks awesome, well done on the design. I wish you had finished about 9 months ago would have saved me a heap of time and effort. It makes mine look like a aluminium house brick strapped to the frame!
As far as the noise goes there is to many variables as far as type and placement of the camera so the jury's still out.
The clean mobile mid uses a similar reduction but the teeth step around pins and it also makes some noise. You can hear it in the video review of the M1 spritzing its a strange metallic rattle.
http://electricridereview.com/m1-sporttechnik/spitzing/

 

[giblet]

Hi Dave - are you still going ahead with this project. Why have you not replied to any PMs or this thread?

I see from this website you are relocating so maybe you're too busy? Or are you having some technical / patent problems.

https://angel.co/dave-dubose

I don't understand why you've gone underground? Maybe a quick update? Your qualifications would suggest you're the real deal - but I'm just glad you haven't got any of my money as I'd be seriously worried now.

All the best and hopefully nothing bads happened to you.

 

[macribs]

Hi Dave - are you still going ahead with this project. Why have you not replied to any PMs or this thread?

I see from this website you are relocating so maybe you're too busy? Or are you having some technical / patent problems.

https://angel.co/dave-dubose

I don't understand why you've gone underground? Maybe a quick update? Your qualifications would suggest you're the real deal - but I'm just glad you haven't got any of my money as I'd be seriously worried now.

All the best and hopefully nothing bads happened to you.

Let's give Dave the benefits of the doubt. No reason to speculate or draw conclusions. After all AFAIK he has not taken anyones money and he was still looking for members to do initial testing. It could just as easy be every day life that is taking its toll, or he is on summer vacation or whatever else. Point is getting all antsy and starting to speculate does nothing for Dave, and might in the end turn out to hurt him or his reputation. I am sure when Dave is good and ready he will enter back at the forum.

 

[panurge]

+1, mostly on this forum section....

Let's give Dave the benefits of the doubt. No reason to speculate or draw conclusions. After all AFAIK he has not taken anyones money and he was still looking for members to do initial testing. It could just as easy be every day life that is taking its toll, or he is on summer vacation or whatever else. Point is getting all antsy and starting to speculate does nothing for Dave, and might in the end turn out to hurt him or his reputation. I am sure when Dave is good and ready he will enter back at the forum.

 

[aCeMadMod]

hi all i very happy to pay for gearbox kit with out motor and esc ? around 3 weeks ago . what seem odd dave dose not really want to reply in http://endless-sphere pm post.. Only email and he will not sell on ebay for your safe with paypal , i know we some bad dudes rip off like $20000 here before, i never give my email to him. i guess with like we think it a guy ? has i really want the geardrive kit price seem to good to be ture ,,, this made me think this part stop me from buying , i ask him how much stock do you have, reply 0 ,, in 2 week i will have some , take its now 3 week later , and and not update to tell us whats goseing on ,,, plus change the website Dose not make any one feel safe about buy the gearbox...

hope it not a scam. the postcost seem a bit hight.. to send to Au i told him to use usp, before the postcost was lol dhl $240
Tangent drive unit- barebones
from 400.00

Barebones reduction drive includes:

Tangent Ascent drive unit
Left/right mounting plates
Universal frame clamp
ESC mounting plate
Freewheel crankset w/ 32t Surly SS chainring
ISIS BB


400.00
Subtotal
0.00
Tax
65.00
Shipping
465.00
Grand Total

 

[tightbox]

Hoping he gets back to me via PM. I've got an Astro 3220 itching to be deployed in this! I'm also a professional videographer, so it may help to capture the ride/sound impressions with proper equipment.

 

[recumpence]

I would be very careful running a 3220 through the chainline. If run at the RPM the little 3210 in the video is running, you will overload the driveline and have FW crank issues, derailer issues, and possibly rear freewheel issues.

A 3210 is prefect for this application. A 3220 is just too much torque (if run in its proper RPM) for the pedal drive system.

Matt

 

[amberwolf]

Tangentdave's profile (button in any of his posts) shows Last visited: Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:28 pm so it's only been two days since he was last here. His last post was about 10 days before that, but still, I don't see a reason to "panic" about anything.

 

[giblet]

Tangentdave's profile (button in any of his posts) shows Last visited: Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:28 pm so it's only been two days since he was last here. His last post was about 10 days before that, but still, I don't see a reason to "panic" about anything.

I'd be panicking if I'd sent him $1400 and had no reply - luckily I only bought the batteries he recommended from HobbyKing which I have now returned.

He was very helpful and responded immediately initially but then went quiet.

If he visited two days ago why not respond to PM's (I've still got 2 sitting there from 10 days ago) or at least do a quick post.

Very odd.

 

[macribs]

Giblet pls stop speculating. I am sure in due time we will all know why. He has been here, he has posted. Give the man some piece, after all as he is developing and prototyping I am sure he works around the clock to improve, build or manufacturing parts.

Not all people are forum jockeys, some people also have a real life that needs attending too as well as long working hours. For all we know Dave might not have the time to answer because of real life, to much work or a family vacation. You see, my speculation is not any better then yours. My point being we don't know. The fact we do know is that is has been only days since he was logged in. Let's stick to the fact, ok?

If you start to feel nauseous after a couple of days of absence from Dave maybe you should not worry about shopping online for anything? If you do shopping like in the ol'days you will have no worries.

 

[giblet]

Giblet pls stop speculating. I am sure in due time we will all know why. He has been here, he has posted. Give the man some piece, after all as he is developing and prototyping I am sure he works around the clock to improve, build or manufacturing parts.

Not all people are forum jockeys, some people also have a real life that needs attending too as well as long working hours. For all we know Dave might not have the time to answer because of real life, to much work or a family vacation. You see, my speculation is not any better then yours. My point being we don't know. The fact we do know is that is has been only days since he was logged in. Let's stick to the fact, ok?

If you start to feel nauseous after a couple of days of absence from Dave maybe you should not worry about shopping online for anything? If you do shopping like in the ol'days you will have no worries.

Lol. Yeah it took me at least 2 minutes to post this. If you don't find it odd that someone who initially had a conversation with you disappears mid way through it then fine - but that's what has happened with me and obviously others but thanks for your very informative advice.

I don't buy anything other than petrol, food and clothes from shops, and haven't for many years, but again thanks for the warning. I also sell a lot online and ship products around the world - I know about communication and trust and there is something wrong here. I've been scammed before in the early days of Yahoo! classifieds (yes 1997) - and that hasn't happened ever again. I'm not stupid.

The facts are:

1) Dave posted a build thread showing a video of his new motor system
2) Dave posted a for sale thread asking for 6 members of ES to purchase and test his system at an introductory price
3) Dave initially replied to me and others via forum posts and PMs about his system and the purchasing of it
4) Another member has actually posted that he has purchased it so thankfully I told him I'd wait he got the unit and reviewed it
4) Dave then did not reply for 10 days on the forum or via PM even though he has visited the forum 3 days ago

Whether Dave is actually physically able to reply is another issue but if he is - he should.

As for your ridiculous comments about feeling nauseous - I only seem to get that reading your posts.

If you could kindly refrain from giving anymore advice and we'll wait and see if Dave replies. Hopefully nothing bad has happened to him because if you read his Angel profile you'll clearly see that he's not some fly by night scammer trying to flog some shitty Chinese system which makes this even stranger.

He's a very well educated professional with patents to his name and a top level past employment history - someone of his nature wouldn't just stop posting unless he couldn't (i.e. company has been bought by an investor and he contractually can't sell or say anything further about the technical side of the system or he physically can't post for whatever reason). I hope it's the former and he can at least say something - even if he just posts an exclamation mark that would do.

Have a nice day.

 

[macribs]

Clearly we are not agreeing here, bu that is fine. Let us just leave it at that for now and see what comes out of this. I for sure hope that drive kit is for real and that we will hear from Dave. If we don't I was wrong and you was right.

Sorry I didn't mean for that previous post to sound harsh, when I re-read it seems like I was so sorry for that. I used bad choice of wording and for that I am sorry. That might happen on an international forum where people from all over communicate in non-native tongue. NHF?

 

[giblet]

Clearly we are not agreeing here, bu that is fine. Let us just leave it at that for now and see what comes out of this. I for sure hope that drive kit is for real and that we will hear from Dave. If we don't I was wrong and you was right.

Sorry I didn't mean for that previous post to sound harsh, when I re-read it seems like I was so sorry for that. I used bad choice of wording and for that I am sorry. That might happen on an international forum where people from all over communicate in non-native tongue. NHF?

No worries. I maybe completely wrong. tangentdave - may not even be Dave Dubose - it might be someone pretending to be him trying to make a quick buck off some prototype with a dodgy website and some stolen photos - who knows.

For that matter does anyone actually know Dave Dubose - or has physically met him? (queue X-files music)

I for one was excited about the prospect of being able to purchase a motor kit as described by tangentdave.

Let's hope this is all a big mis-understanding and tangentdave is having a lovely holiday somewhere and has completely forgotten about posting on ES and having conversations with people on these forums.

Let's just hope! I'm just glad I'm not the one who's 'hoping' with $1400 out of my pocket.

All the best

 

[Gab]

by recumpence » Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:26 am

flathill wrote:
Nice kit! Remember folks... the competition for this kit is the EGO from Austria which looks like crap and cost 3000 bucks. Still I would copy their marketing (target demographic). They are now teaming up with redbull and running the first extreme offroad ebike races

If you want to reduce drive noise you need to add elastomer to the frame tube mount. Also offer black anodizing for stealth. Justins FOC controller will also reduce noise and is very compact



I agree it is too loud. The noise will not go away with just elastomers. This type of reduction is just noisy. That being said, Cyclone has sold many drives despite the noise.

The quality looks good. Props for the "From scratch" reduction.

Matt

The EGO kits have the same noisy gearbox as cyclones, the AFT use the same motor but is better bang for buck then EGO and the gearbox is quieter and lasts longer with oil in the gearbox and ceramic bearings in motor and gearbox that also reduce noise with some gearbox shrouds they claim 12Dba reduction : http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=66134

The AFT is the the only quiet cyclone clone and it would be interesting to compare the noise of this harmonic astro drive kit with that. I think this is an interesting design but the main limiting factor will be noise, its well know thats high RPM 10k astro motors have a high pitched wine by themselves and this can be amplified when mated to a metal gearbox. Hence why many use a rubber belt drive at such rpms. This astro 10k rpm is higher then the cyclone 6500 rpm so it could actualy be noisier with metal on metal gears, which make senses with the humming bees comments of the videos ??

Can you take some Dba measurments from a certain distance like 50cm away from the cranks ? at different rpm and different loads ?

 

[tangentdave]

I'm here, busy and the ES site stopped informing me of your ongoing discussion or the PMs sent in the last week. I won't count on those messages anymore, sorry.

1) The first 10 units are being cut. I'm about two weeks away from shipping as half the parts need anodizing (1week).
2) I suck at video. I'm working on finding riders to show off the capabilities and somebody who is good with video.
3) I will absolutely sell the drive unit barebones if you already have an Astro. The only requirement is the motor uses the 3/8" shaft (standard) and it has a 1/8" keyway, less than 1.75" of stickout. I always planned on selling the drive piecemeal- I'm offering it complete as a convenience since most people probably don't have an extra Astro laying around. The website is being worked on.

The unit is filled with grade 00 grease. The noise really isn't all the video makes it seem- the frame is amplifying the sound upwards. I like it, much more like a moto without the obnoxiousness, that was my goal- you know your're on it. You can cruise past somebody at 300W and they won't hear almost anything, but if you want to use 2000W, you're not trying to be quite anyway. The silent electric motors provide a funny riding experience I'm not sure I like as much. I will get decibel readings and a better microphone. If you want/need silent, Lightningrod's or the DaVinci reduction drives are a better choice. A 40:1 gearbox this tough and tiny is allowed some leeway, IMHO. This is really about haulin ass up the trail, you kinda want people to hear you coming. I don't ride on crowded MTB trails- go out to where it's ok to wheelie everywhere and blitz a trail at unsafe speeds. Did you know e-bikes are illegal in New York 'cause their fast and silent and occasionally run into rich people?

I'm changing the mounts to boxed steel, same profile and shape, just one piece not two. I'm deforming the plates under high power without a very solid downtube clamp, which is too difficult to make universal. So, boxed steel and a nice universal clamp. The box will also be able to hold the ESC nicely.

What numbers would people like to see? Wh/mi, GPS tracking of a trail ride, anything that comes from the Cycle Analyst or Castle Creations logging?

-dave

 

[tangentdave]

The first lot of parts, halfway thru the process...

 

[giblet]

I'm here, busy and the ES site stopped informing me of your ongoing discussion or the PMs sent in the last week. I won't count on those messages anymore, sorry.

Thanks for replying to PMs and posting here again. It's always worrying when someone just goes 'dark'.

I did actually think something bad had happened, I wasn't trying to be melodramatic!

Especially as you're playing with big mountains, fast motors and Konas Stinkys (when I had mine it encouraged me to push further than my sensible limits should of allowed, but that bike can almost handle anything) - anyway glad everything's moving along.

I'll keep my concerns to myself next time and leave you to get on with it.

 

[district9prawn]

What numbers would people like to see? Wh/mi, GPS tracking of a trail ride, anything that comes from the Cycle Analyst or Castle Creations logging?

How about power draw with no load with/without the reduction?