Do You Build E-bikes for Resell

H

Henry111

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May 3, 2011
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Long Beach, CA
Obviously there are a lot of guys on here who purchase bike frames, motors, electronics, and batteries, and build their own
e-bikes.
But I am curious to know if there are many on here who build them to resell--out of their home or out of a shop.
If not why not, and have you even you considered it?
 
I've had many people offer to buy my ebikes, usually at a handsome profit, but I have always refused. I make up some excuse, but the real reason can be seen in the ongoing forum exchange between a buyer and a seller: who needs that sort of aggravation?
 
Woodland Hills, much of the aggravation can be avoided by building bikes as simple as possible with as few unnecessary, and pron-to-fail bells and whistle as possible.
 
Same as Woodlandhills--too many scammers and idiots I'm not willing to risk dealing with. Already did that far too much back in my computer-tech days, never again.

I'll gladly help someone learn how to do their own, or work with them right there to fix stuff, etc., and I'll even build a bike to give to a friend for free.

But I'm not gonna deal with the rest of it; everyone either wants it all for less than just the parts cost, or they are unwilling to learn how to work with it themselves and expect every tiny little thing to be done for them for the rest of their lives, among the various bad situations I've dealt with in computers.

Bikes (and everything else) are no different.


I've offered to help many people build their own (computers, bikes, etc)--zero have been willing to even attempt it. If they're not even willing to try.... :/
 
Henry111 said:
Woodland Hills, much of the aggravation can be avoided by building bikes as simple as possible with as few unnecessary, and pron-to-fail bells and whistle as possible.
Click to expand...

Why would I want to build boring ebikes? And why would you think that building that sort of ebike will immunize you from assholes? Assumes facts not in evidence, Your Honor.......
 
Woodland Hills, if your only interest is in the pleasure you get out of building e-bikes, then, of course you would not want to build boring bikes to sell to the great unwashed. And I don't blame you. It's would just not be for you.

But regarding asshole e-bike customers: I did NOT say that building simple bikes would immunize you from assholes. I just said it would reduce the aggravation. If one hopes to be aggravation free, then going into ANY business should be the last thing on ones do list.

I brought up this subject because I just spent two days visiting the Electric Bike Expo here in Long Beach Ca. These cross-country Expos are put on by the Electric Bike Association with their main sponsor being Bosch.
These were nearly all global companies, who have done their R&D and know that globally, comparatively speaking, the American market is peanuts. So 99% of their bikes are designed for the Asian and Europe markets. Just one example: All, and I mean all, were PAS systems; you must pedal--no throttles. All were claiming ranges of 50 to 100 miles per charge from 36V/10Ah battery pedalic systems. No one laughed when I pointed out that consequently you would have to pedal for 40 to 100 miles.
I would like to encourage more American INDEPENDENT e-bike builders to go into the business of building e-bikes for the American market--and tell the truth about speed and range. You can put a 750 watt bike together with a 36V/14h lithium for under $800--less if you can buy in quantity. Sell it for about $1500. You will be selling AT HALF THE PRICE a bike with TWICE the power and HONEST range than any of those $3000.00 and $4000.00 bikes I test rode at the Electric Bike Expo. I think an Independent E-bike Builders Association would be a good idea. Thoughts please.
 
spiros said:
If you transform your passion into a job then you finish to F..K your passion
Amberwolf you're right!!!!!
Click to expand...

I once turned my passion for roadracing motorcycles into a decent paying job. Eventually I realized I had turned fun into work and that I had traded one boss (my immediate supervisor at my old job) for dozens (my customers).

If there is to ever be a trade group to represent the DIY or boutique builder it should be helmed and supported by those with the most skin in the game: the big importers and those who are making money supplying components to builders. However, given the legal minefield created by the 750w power limit for legal street or trail use, don't hold your breath. :cry: It would be kind of hard to lobby in behalf of legal access if all of your products are well over the legal limit and cannot be ridden anywhere but private property or motorcycle areas, which I believe is the case with any BBSHD build to give just one example. Certainly any motor can be made legal by adjusting amps and volts in the controller, but does anyone really do this in the real world? How many 14a/52v BBSHDs are running around out there as opposed to 30a/52v setups: 1% ? 1/2% ? I have three and none of them are truly legal, this is obviously not a problem for me as an individual user, but as a trade association or lobbyist, it sure would be. It might even be an issue for a small shop getting sued by a customer...... :oops: people have expectations and when they spend a couple of thousand on something their expectations are pretty high IMHO.

As far as starting a business building ebikes, I think that warranty claims would be a prohibitive barrier unless you sold w/o one and I'm not so sure that state laws would allow that in practice. Luna has begun selling prebuilt new ebikes, but they do so without any warranty whatsoever. You can buy a warranty from them for $200 for two years which may give you an idea of what the biggest importer in the country expects it to cost based upon their own experience over the last few years. Don't forget that they buy their replacement parts at a discount not available to you, they also don't have to wait for replacements to arrive from elsewhere since they have everything in stock on hand sitting on a shelf.
 
Its not the building, its the unreliability of ebike parts which would be the main hassle. You would have to give some kind of warranty and thats where the bulk of your work would be. The majority of people you sell to will be completely ignorant to basic bike maintenance so what hope would there be with electrics. Parts on ebikes fail. Have a look at the 99% of threads on this forum. Most are releted to fixing issues. You find that most vendors on the forum keep their business web based, like the chinese are so good at doing, or for that matter anyone on ebay. Keep your customer at arms length to minimise come back or just to make it as difficult as possible for warranty claims.
 
JMO, but take a look at Juiced Bikes (I've ridden several and all were superb) and decide if you want to compete with them.
 
WoodlandHills said:
spiros said:
If you transform your passion into a job then you finish to F..K your passion
Amberwolf you're right!!!!!
Click to expand...

I once turned my passion for roadracing motorcycles into a decent paying job. Eventually I realized I had turned fun into work and that I had traded one boss (my immediate supervisor at my old job) for dozens (my customers).

If there is to ever be a trade group to represent the DIY or boutique builder it should be helmed and supported by those with the most skin in the game: the big importers and those who are making money supplying components to builders. However, given the legal minefield created by the 750w power limit for legal street or trail use, don't hold your breath. :cry: It would be kind of hard to lobby in behalf of legal access if all of your products are well over the legal limit and cannot be ridden anywhere but private property or motorcycle areas, which I believe is the case with any BBSHD build to give just one example. Certainly any motor can be made legal by adjusting amps and volts in the controller, but does anyone really do this in the real world? How many 14a/52v BBSHDs are running around out there as opposed to 30a/52v setups: 1% ? 1/2% ? I have three and none of them are truly legal, this is obviously not a problem for me as an individual user, but as a trade association or lobbyist, it sure would be. It might even be an issue for a small shop getting sued by a customer...... :oops: people have expectations and when they spend a couple of thousand on something their expectations are pretty high IMHO.

As far as starting a business building ebikes, I think that warranty claims would be a prohibitive barrier unless you sold w/o one and I'm not so sure that state laws would allow that in practice. Luna has begun selling prebuilt new ebikes, but they do so without any warranty whatsoever. You can buy a warranty from them for $200 for two years which may give you an idea of what the biggest importer in the country expects it to cost based upon their own experience over the last few years. Don't forget that they buy their replacement parts at a discount not available to you, they also don't have to wait for replacements to arrive from elsewhere since they have everything in stock on hand sitting on a shelf.
Click to expand...
That warranty cost is more like 200.00 for 6 mos, 400.00 one year, 800.00 2 years. Take a look at the website.
 
My bad...... Still, it more than proves my point.

BTW, this is not due to any inherent defects in either the bikes, the batteries or the motors, just the likelihood of Mr. John Q. Public screwing something up in the first two years and the cost of making things right. (Mostly the batteries I suspect.)
 
Just imagine:
One day all the e-bike shops in the USA stopped buying ready-to-ride e-bikes from the large importers and started importing kits and batteries themselves and assembled their own bikes sold in their own shops? They would build better bikes at half the price. Margins would increase. They would have to stock parts for only one brand--there own. And they would not have to over-inventory a half dozen different brands. (Consider Pedego). Being local, they would be able to provide service. And yes, if they keep the bikes simple they can offer warranties.
Please don't say it can't be done. I have been doing it for three years. I've not mentioned the name of my company or website because I do not want to be accused of spamming.
I still think an Independent E-bike Builders Association is a good idea.
Thoughts please.
 
WoodlandHills said:
If there is to ever be a trade group to represent the DIY or boutique builder it should be helmed and supported by those with the most skin in the game: the big importers and those who are making money supplying components to builders. However, given the legal minefield created by the 750w power limit for legal street or trail use, don't hold your breath. :cry: It would be kind of hard to lobby in behalf of legal access if all of your products are well over the legal limit and cannot be ridden anywhere but private property or motorcycle areas, which I believe is the case with any BBSHD build to give just one example. Certainly any motor can be made legal by adjusting amps and volts in the controller, but does anyone really do this in the real world? How many 14a/52v BBSHDs are running around out there as opposed to 30a/52v setups: 1% ? 1/2% ? I have three and none of them are truly legal, this is obviously not a problem for me as an individual user, but as a trade association or lobbyist, it sure would be. It might even be an issue for a small shop getting sued by a customer...... :oops: people have expectations and when they spend a couple of thousand on something their expectations are pretty high IMHO.
Click to expand...

Yes, 52V nominal x 30A = 1560 Watts... A lot more than 750W. It's even 1764 Watts fully charged at 58.8V and 30A !
BTW the BBSHD was designed for 48V nominal, not 52 Volts nominal.... so actually 48V nominal x 30A = 1440 Watts....

BUT

The thing is, 1440 W is ELECTRICAL Watts (input).
BBSHD is rated for 1000W MECHANICAL (output).
I guess the conversion efficiency would be around 70%.

Please clarify this 750W LAW.... Are we talking of what the motor is capable of putting out (MECHANICAL OUTPUT) or what the motor is actually taking in (ELECTRICAL INPUT) ???
1000W is not so far away from 750W.... Just set up your controller to 22.5Amps instead of 30A... I don't think that "14A" is the right number to be legal.... A bit too much on the low side for the BBSHD.
 
IIRC There is a US regulation that states that electric motors imported for sale and use as bicycle motors shall be 750w or less. This is referenced in the rules of other jurisdictions such as state rules and as a federal regulation it has the force of law. Whether or not it is enforced and at what level it can be enforced, it's still there. Thus the BBSHD being stamped "750w" no matter how it is setup.... AFAIK, this means that technically nearly every DIY motor and battery combination sold is in violation of this obscure regulation, which is why all the OEM Bosch-bikes are advertised as being 350w or less.

The unwillingness of the industry to confront this and actively lobby to either remove or change the rule to something that comes closer to what Americans want cannot continue forever. If the OEMs are allowed to be the only ones at the table when making new regulations, guess what power level will be selected: 750w? 1500w? 3000w? or 350w.......... And what will happen when the OEMs and all your local bike shops demand that the cops "get the illegal hot rod ebikes" off of the roads and trails, purely for safety reasons, of course? Riding Under the Radar is not a business strategy, it simply a hope for short-term profit.

I'd like to see all those who are in the ebike business wake up one morning and realize they are an industry and begin to act accordingly. We, DIYers, need representation and lobbying support at the national and local level, every week decisions are being made that affect us and yet we have very little input. There are national and regional organizations that promote road, commuting and mountain biking and the OEM ebike makers have representatives on all of them to make sure their voice is heard, can we say the same?
 
WoodlandHills said:
IIRC There is a US regulation that states that electric motors imported for sale and use as bicycle motors shall be 750w or less. This is referenced in the rules of other jurisdictions such as state rules and as a federal regulation it has the force of law. Whether or not it is enforced and at what level it can be enforced, it's still there. Thus the BBSHD being stamped "750w" no matter how it is setup.... AFAIK, this means that technically nearly every DIY motor and battery combination sold is in violation of this obscure regulation, which is why all the OEM Bosch-bikes are advertised as being 350w or less.

The unwillingness of the industry to confront this and actively lobby to either remove or change the rule to something that comes closer to what Americans want cannot continue forever. If the OEMs are allowed to be the only ones at the table when making new regulations, guess what power level will be selected: 750w? 1500w? 3000w? or 350w.......... And what will happen when the OEMs and all your local bike shops demand that the cops "get the illegal hot rod ebikes" off of the roads and trails, purely for safety reasons, of course? Riding Under the Radar is not a business strategy, it simply a hope for short-term profit.

I'd like to see all those who are in the ebike business wake up one morning and realize they are an industry and begin to act accordingly. We, DIYers, need representation and lobbying support at the national and local level, every week decisions are being made that affect us and yet we have very little input. There are national and regional organizations that promote road, commuting and mountain biking and the OEM ebike makers have representatives on all of them to make sure their voice is heard, can we say the same?
Click to expand...

Yes, good point !
 
As far as the 750w rule goes, the only federal one I'm aware of is the CPSC regulation that covers manufacturers of complete bikes (it's quoted in a lot of places around ES, and linked, just look up CPSC).

I did a bit of googling around and didnt' find any others either, but it doesn't mean there isnt' a separate one about imports of parts vs complete bikes).


The CPSC regulation does not:

-cover DIY ebikes built by and for yourself

-cover how they are to be operated at the state level; i.e. the state D.O.T. laws about vehicles, bicycles, roads, etc.

So each state has their own rules about power levels and such, and some have no power limits at all (like here in AZ), some actually forbid ebikes of any kind (DIY or company-manufactured) or power level, some call them motorcycles or mopeds, etc.


While the federal CPSC regulation does mean that no company can sell (in the USA) a complete ebike with specs higher than that regulation specifies, it doesn't say anything about what you could build yourself, or what companies could sell as kits to turn your existing bike into an ebike with.


It also doesnt' mean that just because it defines what can be sold as an ebike (lightweight electric bicycle, I believe is how they termed it), that that definition applies to all the state DOT's, so in places where they're not legal or have lesser limits/ etc, they still are whatever they are. The federal does not override the state in this instance because it isn't that type of regulation, even though states might use it as a guide to make their own DOT laws and definitions.
 
Thanks for the information. This would seem to give an edge to the DIYer who wants to run more power than any factory bike, as long as local rules and regulations don't get tweaked to favor the OEMs. I think we can all agree that performance based limits make more sense than "power" based ones and are far easier to police: either you are speeding or you are not! Now how do we go about making sure that is what happens everywhere? I live in California and as far as pavement goes, the battle is over and we won, the fight now is about trail access.
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think you grasp the HUGE variation there can be from build to build. There are a plethora of ebike companies already today that are building bikes with the off-the-shelf components.
I am assuming you are inquiring about individuals building unique ebikes with the lesser known parts, and of higher power output at a lower price point.
You did mention builders could be more honest about range...
Problem with that is, there are waaaay too many variables that would affect the range that a particular build could achieve. Even with the same rider.

Let's say someone comes to you who wants you to build them a custom bike. And they want to know upfront how far they could go on it.
Now.. you might could give them a ballpark, but that's about it.
Just some variables that have to be considered: Bike weight (frame, fork, wheels, tires, motor, batteries, components, other gear, etc.), Rider weight, Rider frontal area (the surface are they present to air resistance), Rider position (upright, slouched, race pos), Bike frontal area, Tire rolling resistance, Tire frontal area, Sea-Level Elevation, Speed, Temperature, The path the rider takes (#of stop/starts, on road/off-road, %grade, etc.)......
Even if you know most of those, the path a rider takes can be infinitely variable. What about different clothes from day to day. One day shorts and a t-shirt, next day thermals, pants, and a heavy jacket. Carrying any cargo?

As you can see, any one of these variables can impact the final build results. A heavy rider will have less range than a lighter rider, and be slower too.
And some of these will impact the range more than you would think. Once you get over 20mph, air resistance becomes an enormous factor. Nearly quadrupling as you go up in speed.

There are just too many unknowns that will come back to bite you. One in particular that will sink you fast is the customer's ability to grasp the mechanical understanding when the bike does not perform as they expect. You want to spend days or weeks trying to educate that person for free, so they do not go off and badmouth your business?
R&D, Testing, and product reliability assurance takes time. A custom ebike built for someone that knows nothing about them is asking for trouble.

An argument could be made for any of these points, sure. But the fact remains that it is waaaay more complex than simply building a bike and sending them off on their marry way. And if you start using the off-the-shelf setups.. well, you just became another one of these ebike companies that are popping up all over.
Hope that makes sense.
 
I guess I should have made it clear from the beginning that I have been doing this for four years, (began two years after joining Endless Sphere in 2011) so I am fully aware of all the negatives so far posted. And so far, there has been nothing posted other than negatives explaining why they would not, or could not do it.
I operate out of my home and last year I sold 86 bikes, not a wealth builder, but a good home-based sideline. My purpose here was to encourage others to do the same and if--they are interested--I will advise them. But meanwhile, I have neither the time nor the inclination to become involved in debating the negatives. So why have I not expanded into brick and mortar and sought out dealers? Because I am 89 years old and realistic enough to know that I don't have time for that. On April the 5th of this year, I will celebrate my 90th birth day by leading an e-bike tour of the Long Beach bike path--Queen Mary to Belmont Shore--accompanied by many of my happy customers. Anybody here who cares to tag along, you are welcome. However, if you are under 70, you will be relegated to the back of the pack with the rest of the "kids."
Note: So far I have hesitated to post my company name and/or website because I did not want to be accused of spamming. But I want my offer of advise to be taken seriously, so here: Long Beach Electric Bikes, http://www.lbelectricbikes.com.
 
Henry111 said:
On April the 5th of this year, I will celebrate my 90th birth day by leading an e-bike tour of the Long Beach bike path--Queen Mary to Belmont Shore--accompanied by many of my happy customers. Anybody here who cares to tag along, you are welcome. However, if you are under 70, you will be relegated to the back of the pack with the rest of the "kids."
Click to expand...

:lol:

I can only hope to live that long let alone still be as actively building ebikes! I'm not even old enough to join the "kids" of your ebike "gang"... :wink:

Keep up your good work as long as you can. I wish you well.
 
Actually, SlowCo, I have trained a couple of young fellows who now do the assemblies for me. I pay them $70.00 per bike. Either can put a bike together in about an hour and a half. All of my bikes are 7-speed Micargi frames (mostly step-thrus), 750 watt fronts (with torque arms), 36v/14Ah keyed batteries mounted on a rear rack. We also change out the kickstand. Although Micargi is a Chinese bike, they have a USA warehouse a 45 minute drive from Long Beach. Everything else, except the rear racks and kickstands, we import out of China. I started with just one bike.
Note that 99 percent plus of my bikes are sold person to person, so I can't bullshit folks around the way so many do on line. After all, they know where I live. LOL! On my website I have a hole bunch of good reviews about my service. I would like to see ALL e-bike shops doing it the way I do, instead of buying those over-priced and under powered China imports from companies that go out of business and leave the dealer stuck with bikes impossible to service. Consequently, giving the whole e-bike industry a bad name.
 
SlowCo said:
Henry111 said:
On April the 5th of this year, I will celebrate my 90th birth day by leading an e-bike tour of the Long Beach bike path--Queen Mary to Belmont Shore--accompanied by many of my happy customers. Anybody here who cares to tag along, you are welcome. However, if you are under 70, you will be relegated to the back of the pack with the rest of the "kids."
Click to expand...

:lol:

I can only hope to live that long let alone still be as actively building ebikes! I'm not even old enough to join the "kids" of your ebike "gang"... :wink:

Keep up your good work as long as you can. I wish you well.
Click to expand...

Just keep the faith and keep the mind active. Anyhow, I understand that you Neatherland folks have long life lines.
 
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