Doc 140km/h speed record attempt !

[Hillhater]

In my mind both ebikes are really power full but for me is (2) types of different motorization for an ebike.
.

Whilst there is a case for different classes ..( hub, Non-hub, Voltage, streamlined , etc etc ).. that will just get messy.
At this stage, ..." Max speed on a pedal assist upright bike" .. is a good objective .. An "Open Class" if you like.

.. The added battery case is in aluminum case that keep the 3 6s pack compressed together.. .. so the internal resistance is kept low as expected.

Is this a proven benefit ? .. or just theory ? .. (links ?)
I know (from experience !) packs will "puff" when abused with low or high voltage, but will this compression method prevent the puffing , or simply force the pack to split on an edge somewhere ?
IE does compression really stop the "gassing" ..or just contain the effects ?
I just dont want to have to contemplate building "Compression " housings for all my battery packs !

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

You've inspired me though, and greenmachines has volenterred to film with his calibrated professional radar gun while I make a speed run crossing through a world famous and known-flat and level landmark. I will try to set it up for 110mph to make it worth the effort.

so all set for pikes peak?
not like you to wait till the last minute.
(hope that buys you a bit of a breather doc).

 

[liveforphysics]

You've inspired me though, and greenmachines has volenterred to film with his calibrated professional radar gun while I make a speed run crossing through a world famous and known-flat and level landmark. I will try to set it up for 110mph to make it worth the effort.

so all set for pikes peak?
not like you to wait till the last minute.
(hope that buys you a bit of a breather doc).

Shoot? Ready? Why would I do that? It's not even the night before the race yet.

I may actually be in Germany during Pikes Peak. :-(

But I'm going to help put a battery together for greenmachines at the least.

 

[Doctorbass]

In my mind both ebikes are really power full but for me is (2) types of different motorization for an ebike.
.

Whilst there is a case for different classes ..( hub, Non-hub, Voltage, streamlined , etc etc ).. that will just get messy.
At this stage, ..." Max speed on a pedal assist upright bike" .. is a good objective .. An "Open Class" if you like.

.. The added battery case is in aluminum case that keep the 3 6s pack compressed together.. .. so the internal resistance is kept low as expected.

Is this a proven benefit ? .. or just theory ? .. (links ?)
I know (from experience !) packs will "puff" when abused with low or high voltage, but will this compression method prevent the puffing , or simply force the pack to split on an edge somewhere ?
IE does compression really stop the "gassing" ..or just contain the effects ?
I just dont want to have to contemplate building "Compression " housings for all my battery packs !

It's not theory.. I tested it.. but just not filmed the test yet...

I did that befcause i observed that a slightly puffed cell can recover if you slow discharge it it while applying compression to it.. it's like the gas recover into the cell by electrochemical reaction....

I already saw also something about that with the thundersky cells.. they also sale the device to recompress the puffed cells and they recover in the normal shape with normal pression inside.

Just consider that i have like 70 full cycles on my lipo and i bulkcharged it at 1C all these times... no balancer etc... no cell puffed.. if i remove the pack they still have all the original dimensions

Doc

 

[Hillhater]

OK..but.
.. cells will puff if over dis-charged also... and recover if left to cool, ( further discharging would certainly not help there !)... so my suspicion is that it is just a thermal effect causing a vapor release or "gassing".
I just dont see how compression can stop a thermal /chemical reaction producing gas.
Sure you could contain the puffing, but as i said, my fear is that will not prevent the thermal changes and may just result in increased internal pressure ( from reduced volume) and a risk of cell venting from a weak seam.
My "puffed" packs have returned to original dimensions also...without any compression applied.

 

[Doctorbass]

OK..but.
.. cells will puff if over dis-charged also... and recover if left to cool, ( further discharging would certainly not help there !)... so my suspicion is that it is just a thermal effect causing a vapor release or "gassing".
I just dont see how compression can stop a thermal /chemical reaction producing gas.
Sure you could contain the puffing, but as i said, my fear is that will not prevent the thermal changes and may just result in increased internal pressure ( from reduced volume) and a risk of cell venting from a weak seam.
My "puffed" packs have returned to original dimensions also...without any compression applied.

Aluminum case is fireproof ( i install fiberglass between pack and case too) and also is a good thermal conductor copare to plastic and the battery transfer his heat really well at the end of discharge.

what make cell to catch fire is generally the cell envelope deformation created by the gas expnding.. this deformationstress the layers insid ethe cell and create short... and than ignite the gas.. etc...

Keeping the cell compressed will keep the layers in original shape... if the cell have to puff it wil be thru the end and this is better thay way i think.

by the way... cylindrical shape cells reduce alot the deformation of the layers by keeping the cell shape intact...

anyway.. let's back go to the ORIGINAL thread subject :wink:

Doc

 

[John in CR]

Keeping the cell compressed will keep the layers in original shape... if the cell have to puff it wil be thru the end and this is better thay way i think.

2 problems:
1. Expansion thru the end is far more likely to be explosive due to the compression and sudden release.
2. You have the open end of that case pointed directly at your nuts.

I agree that your compression approach has reduced the chance of failure, however, I believe that it has increased the chance of catastrophic failure. Given the failure rates of these cells, I'm not willing to accept the risk I perceive. I think accepting a slightly higher risk of failure, but just a sizzling smoking failure, is far better than even the slightest chance of a battery pack becoming what is essentially a rectangular pipe bomb due to compression. FWIW, I think LFP's solution using electrical tape to create the compression is a much better choice, since it not only reduces the chances of failure by using compression, but in the event of failure the early heat generated will cause the plastic tape to fail a release the compression prior to an explosive event.

Back to the speed bike...Is that an AL swingarm that you have stretched from 135mm to 150mm, because if so, that doesn't seem like a good idea either, and it makes me think of Eric Barone zooming down the volcano on a prototype carbon fibre bike.

 

[liveforphysics]

We got data from various pouch cell mfg's that quote 5psi as the desired pressure for their pouch cells compression. Might not seem like much, but on a 2"x6" cell it's 60lbs of clamping load.



I'm machining the new mount for the double-thickness golden motor today after work Doc. People have powered small cars with this motor.

 

[Hillhater]

We got data from various pouch cell mfg's that quote 5psi as the desired pressure for their pouch cells compression. Might not seem like much, but on a 2"x6" cell it's 60lbs of clamping load..

5 psi of compression is very different to a rigid constraint.

 

[Doctorbass]

We got data from various pouch cell mfg's that quote 5psi as the desired pressure for their pouch cells compression. Might not seem like much, but on a 2"x6" cell it's 60lbs of clamping load.



I'm machining the new mount for the double-thickness golden motor today after work Doc. People have powered small cars with this motor.

Great idea Luke,

Please dont forget to shoot us some picture of that as well :wink:

Doc

 

[Pure]

So Doc, when's the big day? Or do you have anything written in stone yet?

Wile others may be "faster" I would love to see someone (you) get it on paper and printed in Guinness.

Remember, for it to be "official" IIRC your average run time of 2 runs is what they will go by.

 

[Doctorbass]

As i said i push the speed step by step to ensure everything is under my control.


tuesday, i have finally breaked the 70MPH club barrier GPS I Still have some work to do as well

At 113kmh i'm at 10-11kW power sustained while motor stabilize at 135 celsius wich leave me some room for higher speed.. but i feel i will hit the max mecanical/thermal/poweer limit of the motyor really soon.

I thing i must make some change in teh aerodymanic of the ebike... like wearing a full face helmet WITH WINDOW, lowering the seat, inflating the tire to more than 25 psi ( actually set for dirt)

Increasing the current limit of the kelly to 100% ( actually 75%)

Doc

 

[Andje]

haha lately ive been thinking i need a full face helmet because of the wind burn in my eyes...and i'm only rolling around at 95km/h these days. Don't even want to think about 120+ squinting into the bugs haha....

Bonne chance Doc, but it seems to me like in the end the fight of hub motor vs geared brushless is an apples vs oranges thing. Doc almost certainly has the fastest hub motor ebike around right, which is bad ass, whereas luke is running in actual e moto races with an ebike which is also incredibly bad ass.

I want a video of a side by side race both powered and then pedaled. At least for hilarity, but also because i think that the amount of "bike" still in your bike is best determined by the rider pedaling it. Mine has no chain at all at the moment until i can get doc's torque arms on there for the derailer hanger, so it's really just a shitty motorcycle i guess. I know when i eventually design and build a frame it won't be based around a hub motor, no matter how much i love putting a major component in that space to free up frame for batteries. As luke says, the motor he is now using has powered cars. That's not in the same class as a single hub motor no matter how you swing it lol. I bet you you could each hold separate Guinness records; one for fastest hub powered ebike, one for fastest chain driven ebike.

 

[Pure]

I thing i must make some change in teh aerodymanic of the ebike... like wearing a full face helmet WITH WINDOW, lowering the seat, inflating the tire to more than 25 psi ( actually set for dirt)
Doc

Uh ya to say the least.

One of these might actually be a pretty good idea also.

http://www.zzipper.com/Products/prod_upright.php

I dunno if that one or this one would be better.

The last one is larger and might have better aro properties, but is also more apt to acting like a sail on the front of your bike. The other one is less of a sail, and you might be able to tuck behind it efficiently enough for it to serve it's purpose.

It's said, that once you go over 25mph a fairing really can make a difference. In your case at those speeds, I would imagine the amp draw from wind resistance isn't a small amount. I know for me and my X5 the difference between 20 and 25 mph is a pretty large jump in amps. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 12-15 amps @ 20 mph to 25-30amps at 25, though I'm not a lil guy, but still you get the point.

 

[liveforphysics]

So Doc, when's the big day? Or do you have anything written in stone yet?

Wile others may be "faster" I would love to see someone (you) get it on paper and printed in Guinness.

Remember, for it to be "official" IIRC your average run time of 2 runs is what they will go by.

Why would you want a grossly inaccurate record to be printed? (just curious?)

 

[Pure]

Because, wile the "in" crowd may know who did it first. For the rest of the world and as far as real world recognition goes. It's what gets put in the books that matters.

Guys fight over this crap all the time with land speed records. But the bottom line is, the one who puts it in the books is what the majority of the world cares about. In our case, this will also help with exposure to the EV movement.

Edit:

So Doc gets his speed in the books..Then You or who else that can beat that speed, might have to stand up and do the same to put their names where it belongs. And the cycle continues...All that exposure can't be bad for our cause.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

So Doc, when's the big day? Or do you have anything written in stone yet?

Wile others may be "faster" I would love to see someone (you) get it on paper and printed in Guinness.

Remember, for it to be "official" IIRC your average run time of 2 runs is what they will go by.

Why would you want a grossly inaccurate record to be printed? (just curious?)

I have to agree, it would be like someone in the US setting the "official" on paper land speed record when they already know someone in Canada had already been recorded going much faster. :wink:

Besides, if there WAS an "official" record made that would just give the faster guys (IIRC Luke said there are some other E-Bikes on the track that have gone even faster than he has) a reason to break it the next day.

 

[Hillhater]

...Besides, if there WAS an "official" record made that would just give the faster guys (IIRC Luke said there are some other E-Bikes on the track that have gone even faster than he has) a reason to break it the next day.

That actually sound like a good reason to have a record officially "in the book" !
I gives guys an objective to aim for and encourage development of better equipment , rather than just messing about for fun & grins.

 

[liveforphysics]

So, my target speed is going to be 110mph, maintained for 0.5mile, then turned around and ridden back on the same route, and the two speeds averaged.

So, things I planned to start with for this test, is 2 observers with HD cameras filming the run both directions. Go-pro HD camera footage on the bike, both on a GPS next to a calibrated CA to show they agree with each other.

Then using a marked out 1/2mile section of the airstrip I'm testing on with timing between the points. Then greenmachines with his professional radar gun SMD setup with the big speed display.


Everyone list the verification methods you would like to see for evidence, and if they are reasonable, I will make them happen. Also, if you're in the bay area and want to witness the run, the more the witnesses the merrier, and bring your own distance measuring tools, stop-watches, radar guns, or even bike speedo's or whatever if you've go something you can easily put on the bike and calibrate to my wheel diameter roll-out distance.

110mph will be almost fast enough to be worth making an official record without embarrassing electric bicycles.

These are existing current records set by non-motorized bicycles...



Name Year Speed Type of record
Sam Whittingham 2009 133 km/h (83 mph) Flat surface, unpaced[1]
Barbara Buatois 2010 121 km/h (75 mph) Flat surface, unpaced (woman)[1]
Fred Rompelberg 1995 268 km/h (167 mph) Flat surface, motor-paced[2]
Bruce Bursford 1996 334 km/h (208 mph) Riding on a roller[3]
Markus Stöckl 2011 164.95 km/h (102.50 mph) Downhill on a volcano, on a serial production bicycle.[4]
Eric Barone 2002 172 km/h (107 mph) Downhill on a volcano, on a prototype bicycle[5]
Markus Stöckl 2007 210.4 km/h (130.7 mph) Downhill on snow, on a serial production bicycle[6]
Eric Barone 2000 222 km/h (138 mph) Downhill on snow, on a prototype bicycle[7]

 

[Pure]

That sounds about right.. One thing I'm not sure of. For it to be deemed "official" you might have to have an Official from Guinness there (or some other record keeping entity, not sure of any other one out there though) to witness it. Or maybe they have a list or requirements for you to fulfill for and application to the record. Either way, it's something I would definitely look into. I mean the whole point in making it an "Official Record" is to get it out there and published.If it's not published then what was the point, other than again..us in the "in" crowd know how fast you can go. But seriously, I don't need all that proof. I believe you for your word. If you are going to go through all that trouble, might as well make it count.

 

[John in CR]

110mph will be almost fast enough to be worth making an official record without embarrassing electric bicycles.

Thank you for some sanity.

 

[Pure]

110mph will be almost fast enough to be worth making an official record without embarrassing electric bicycles.

Thank you for some sanity.

:lol: Think about those speed records done on pedal bikes. Most where really big productions with draft vehicles and chase vehicles. Any speed record done by an unassisted (no draft car) e-bike, is worthy of the books. I say set the bar high just to make it need to go higher for the next person in the spirit of good competition and advancement of "what can be done". But not because I'm embarrassed..

 

[liveforphysics]

I will be going higher speed than this fellow on a bicycle, and let's hope that I don't end up with as much missing skin and broken bones. lol


[youtube]AbT8N42QJik[/youtube]

 

[Pure]

LOL I was watching that vid wile posting about the fearing. Just don't use no pansy ass carbon fiber frame.

He really didn't fall well did he. I mean even for a high speed bike wreck, the guys on the track usually don't get as mangled as he did. I guess the vertical slope may have had something to do with that. I love how at the end they were holding him up. He's all f*cked up and just kinda standing there in his whitey tighties.

 

[Doctorbass]

Official world record is one thing.. and also can cost alot of money.. unless you have sponsor.. wich help alot for those event.

I have read on the guiness record and there is two way to submit a record: having the officials coming to your event at your fee.. I mean apparently you pay their the fee of their trip, hotel, breakfast, etc... as well as the event itself...

Or you can film with the max proof you have WITHOUT the Guiness guys present at your event and than submit everything and pray that they will accept it after the examen.

Luke, this is great to see you wanna push the limit just like me and tat's what we need.. competition always help for that :wink:

On my side.. i dont have the budget you have and i try to stay in the common limit of the E-S are using... X5, normal dh bike no fairing etc....

What i am proud of is that my giant can do very nice work on dirt or any trail as well as on a straight or curved line on the pavenent for top speed or not... and it is stable in every conditions...

My giant is not made for a top speed.. it is made for every kind of ride.. and that's what i think is interesting to have...

I mean this Giant is a kind of all i one ride e-bike.

This is the main reason why i abandonned the last motobike with fairing of 2009... this was not looking like a bicycle so to state that this is a fast electric bicycle is less glorius than a bicycle that people can reconize as a bicycle...

I remember back in 2007 when Lowell was doing like 88km/h with hil LiCo ebike.. I was so impressed and i wanted to do the same on my next ebikes.. BUt not using LiCo as well :lol:

Doc