EEStor ultracapacitor

[e-beach]

Ah, but Kleiner is taking 3 million shares of Zenn Motors stock as part of the deal. Since Zenn's only asset is its partial ownership and marketing agreement with EEstor, Kleiner must think that there is still somthing there.
Been following this saga since 2008 and hope to live long enough to see if Dick Wier turns out to be a genius or a con artist.
Full disclosure; have bought and sold Zenn stock hundreds of times and am actually a little ahead. Currently hold 3K shares.

Hummmm.....Kleiner Perkins is a shrewd mover. Maybe it's cheaper to own Zenn then EEstor there-by getting more assets for the dollar?......

BTW, glad you are ahead on the deals.

 

[e-beach]

Selling samples??? Are investors so enthralled that they want to pay for the proof of what EEStor says it has?

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ee...amples-to-a-private-investor-group-2013-09-23

CEDAR PARK, Texas, Sept. 23, 2013 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ --

EEStor, Inc. is pleased to announce the sale of their developed product samples to a private investor group. This group has followed EEStor's progress with day-to-day direct communications and invested in the technology development. As such they are interested to confirm certain performance statistics gleaned from EEStor, Inc. particularly as it relates to energy storage.

EEStor is particularly pleased with this sale. It is now the second sale of samples, the first being to a potential customer with particularly positive results as it relates to capacitors and energy storage. Furthermore, EEStor is now in discussions with multiple new potential customers for initial product level demonstrations.

 

[mattrb]

Everyone has to make a Buck

 

[e-beach]

Everyone has to make a Buck

Yea, but buying the nebulous EEStor tech sounds more like paying a buck then making a buck. :lol:

Who knows, maybe their secrecy is really just a way to keep the Chinese from duplicating the process without paying for patent infringement.

 

[Dauntless]

I wish I had the right terminology, but there's all sorts of circumstances where someone fronts money to even come look.

If you own land which they'd like to look for oil or natural gas to dig wells and pay you big royalties if they find it, you get paid. When they're drilling, you get paid. When they find it but won't be ready to produce for a bit, they send a lock in payment - yep, you get paid. The real money comes when you get the monthly checks from the sales, but you've done okay even if they don't find anything.

What I suspect this "Buying Samples" refers to is the R&D people of the one potential customer needed something to work with, and fully understanding "Lookie Loos," they pay for such things rather than getting it free, even if it's a loss leader for the seller who still had their own people helping the customer develop. The investors meanwhile are a risk when you let them look at their technology -- 'What's that Asian accent I'm hearing, there?' Or they don't even have to be Chinese to be stealing technology.

Good old fashioned earnest money.

 

[317537]

Excerpts:

During the tour, we watched several testing procedures, including a resistivity test on newly manufactured product, a test of capacitance under varying frequencies, and an energy storage test upon varying voltages. The sample used in the DC test was manufactured on October 9, 2012 and provided results as shown in Exhibit 1. Notable in the test results is that energy stored increased at a rate faster than one would typically expect as voltage was raised if we used the stand equation of E=1⁄2CV2 (or CV2/7200, when using W-hr rather than W-sec). This is similar to the results from the samples described in EEStor’s press release from October 16. The explanation, according to EEStor, is that the material is operating in the paraelectric phase. This results in the capacitance (“C”) of the sample increasing as voltage (“V”) increases. It seems that this paraelectric characteristic is what has caused previous skepticism as many people have expected EEStor’s product to exhibit ferroelectric characteristics, which would have resulted in capacitance being constant before dropping off at breakdown voltage. This paraelectric behaviour seems to be the secret to EEStor’s massive energy storage potential.

 

[317537]

Yes its working. And they havent pushed the samples to their maximum. The higher voltages can be used for on grid storage, something about needing silicone to do step down is a challenge but I can think of a few ways to turn UHVDCv into AC with out silicone being used..

 

[317537]

Their first samples ED, around 345wh/l starts about where commercial lithium is now and is expected to crap on it in the future and the materials are not a rare commodity...

 

[317537]

Sorry last post was the trolls, but what goes around will eventually come around.

Ok what if I store 5 watts in one capacitor, and 5 watts in another and then series them. Do I get 10 watts or 5 watts return?

Well potentially yes, but there is the plate distance issue to deal, where does that energy disappear? Or does it disappear?

Both used 5watts of power to charge, totaling 10 watts, however some people think 5+5 has got to = 5. It goes against the laws. There is a way to get your 10 watts.

SO

Why are you lot totally avoiding discussing my Idea about using them like this and trolling? I know youre not that stupid.

 

[317537]

It is an interesting subject some are trying very hard to avoid discussing..

If I parallel 2*10v 10 farad caps, I get 10v 20 farad, if I series them I get 20v 5 farad, ummm. Der.


What I think Luke is missing, is when you add batteries in series you dont lose capacity of each cell but when you series capacitors, you learn that you lose farad as plate distance is doubled between the main terminals.. This is electrostatics and by series capacitors, you dont lose anything but ED, you just dont gain anything...

 

[liveforphysics]

Ok what if I store 5 watts in one capacitor, and 5 watts in another and then series them. Do I get 10 watts or 5 watts return?

Well potentially yes, but there is the plate distance issue to deal, where does that energy disappear? Or does it disappear?

A pair of 5Wh caps, in series or parallel yield the same 10Wh of energy storage of course.

In parallel it's 2x capacity of the single 5Wh cap, and therefore 10Wh of energy storage. In series it's 1/2 capacity, but 2x voltage, the formula is 1/2C*v^2, so due to the squared voltage component balancing the halved capacitance, you end up at 10Wh as well.

No matter how you arrange caps, you don't store more energy than the sum of the energy storage of the individual caps.

 

[317537]

Series. @20v
1/ct=1/10f+1/10f

.1+.1= .2

1/.2=5f @20v

----

Parallel. @10v

ct=c+c

10+10=20f @10v

Condensed,

10v @ 20f ...VS... 20v @ 5f, which one is better?

The conclusive capacitance is quadruple in farad, by adding them in Parallel, as opposed to in series, but only double the voltage in series vs parallel. So indeed 2 caps in P are better than 2 caps in S


By increasing the surface area (a) of the plates with out loosing distance (d) between the plates, we gain more storage than what one does by increasing the d but not increasing a.

 

[317537]

OMG Americans.

 

[liveforphysics]

Let's do an example.

Say we have 10 caps that are each 10F and 10v max. (Each cap would have 0.5C*V^2= 500J of energy storage, so 10 of them would be 5000J of energy storage combined.)

If we group them all in parallel, we end up with 100F at 10v, which makes 0.5*100*10^2 = 5000J of energy storage.

If we group them all in series, we end up with a 1F cap with 100v max, which makes 0.5*1*100^2 = 5000J of energy storage.

If we group the 10 caps as 2p5s, we end up with a 4F cap with a 50v max, which makes 0.5*4*50^2 = 5000J of energy storage.

5000J of energy storage isn't much either, J = Joule = 1 watt for 1 second, so to convert from J to Wh, you divide by the number of seconds in an hour, 3600. That makes 5000J of energy be 1.38Wh.

 

[liveforphysics]

So indeed 2 caps in P are better than 2 caps in S

This is not correct. Both store exactly the same energy.

 

[317537]

And just you wait until you see what we going to do with TEC and TEG, it aint over until the fat lady sings.

A touch of inspiration, imagination, and none of this you cant, do goes a long way. We are not expecting free energy, or some huge miracle perpetual motion machine, and there is you limits to physics. So we can do much much more than what we already know.

Capacitance math doesn't equate to single caps. As V goes higher as long as the distance remains the same, we finding in Para phase so to does C. Attraction seems to get more attracting the higher the voltage.

 

[liveforphysics]

Capacitance math doesn't equate to single caps.

I'm confused what you're saying here. Cap energy formulas work fine.

As V goes higher as long as the distance remains the same, we finding in Para phase so to does C. Attraction seems to get more attracting the higher the voltage.

The issue that gives me my doubts with EEstor is material decomposition with voltage. Supercap's have high capacity values because they function much like a lithium ion battery with the energy storage and extraction coming from an electro-chemical process driven through the electrolyte. The electrolyte decomposes at voltages ~3-4ish. If you drop the electrolyte (so you can exceed 3-4v), your capacitance decreases by orders of magnitude, as you're back to storing energy in an electrostatic field rather than electro-chemically. I don't see how they will get super high capacitance with voltages >3-4v that don't just rapidly break-down, but I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong on this, and see a battery alternative/replacement enter the world of EVs.

Hopefully EEstor will show the world something more than just another press release sometime soon.

 

[317537]

Something tells me C*V^2/2 broken when comparing the Joules to F in series.

As both caps linearly discharge at the same time. Not like batteries where the voltage holds. Your missing a number or a function near V.

 

[317537]

Hey I lay off the trolls.

But eestor have independent tests with ED now at 345kw/l

 

[317537]

Here the discharge Looks a lot different for a different perspective.

 

[317537]

Put it this way, as it is been discovered Farad increases with voltage, like if you charge a 10f cap to 5v and it is rated at 10v I theories it only has 2.5f of energy. But when you series say 2 caps, you cant use this formula because you aint doubling the voltage of a single cap.

 

[317537]

Shouldn't V drop @ t/2 with series capacitors.

 

[317537]

Ahhh now I get

ya, youre talking about an entire different thing.

The point I make is you loose farad when you series them and that you do. Any way thats what I ment.

I didnt say joules you did.

I put to you

But what if you could maintain Farad? This is my entire argument.

So now your version of 100v @ .1 farad is now what I was saying 100v @ 10 farad. Now do your cap maths. How many Jouls do I have with a 100v @ 10 farad?


This is the Eestor advantage.

To go right up in voltage but instead of loosing farads they just gain more. I said it is possible you said it wasnt, if you scroll back, youre side tracking me.

What if I could maintain the electrostatic field pressure all a long a series capacitor string?

I just realized you didnt even understand what I was saying in the first place. Maybe I said it wrong. You loose farad, yes. Ability to store energy even more so if you include my statement, I quote, "a lot people dont understand that as voltage goes higher so too does farad".

You have presented an entire different argument.

 

[The Stig]

Uh oh competition!

http://www.technologyreview.com/view/521651/graphene-supercapacitors-ready-for-electric-vehicle-energy-storage-say-korean-engineers/

Now Santhakumar Kannappan at the Gwangju Institute of Science and Technology in Korea and a few pals say they have a solution based on the wonder material of the moment–graphene. These guys have built high-performance supercapacitors out of graphene that store almost as much energy as a lithium-ion battery, can charge and discharge in seconds and maintain all this over many tens of thousands of charging cycles.

The trick these guys have perfected is to make a highly porous form of graphene that has a huge internal surface area. They create this graphene by reducing graphene oxide particles with hydrazine in water agitated with ultrasound.

The graphene powder is then packed into a coin-shaped cell, and dried at 140 degrees C and at a pressure of 300/kg/cm for five hours.

The resulting graphene electrode is highly porous. A single gram of this stuff has a surface area bigger than a basketball court. That’s important because it allows the electrode to accomodate much more electrolyte (an ionic liquid called EBIMF 1 M). And this ultimately determines the amount of charge the supercapacitor can hold.

Kannappan and co have measured the performance of their supercapacitor and are clearly impressed with the results. They say it has a specific capacitance of over 150 Farrads per gram can store energy at a density of more than 64 Watt hours per kilogram at a current density of 5 Amps per gram.

That’s almost comparable with lithium-ion batteries which have an energy density of between 100 and 200 Watt hours per kilogram.

These supercapacitors have other advantages too. Kannappan and co say they can fully charge them in just 16 seconds and have repeated this some ten thousand times without a significant reduction in capacitance. “These values are the highest so far reported in the literature,” they say.

That’s an impressive set of performance figures, which may well justify the conclusion of the authors that these “supercapacitor energy storage devices…can be scaled up for manufacturing in the near future for electric vehicle applications.”

If they’re right, we may soon see ordinary road-going electric vehicles that can efficiently harvest energy that until now has been largely wasted.

 

[fechter]

. They create this graphene by reducing graphene oxide particles with hydrazine in water agitated with ultrasound.

The graphene powder is then packed into a coin-shaped cell, and dried at 140 degrees C and at a pressure of 300/kg/cm for five hours.

Sounds almost like I could make one in my garage.

Hydrazine sounds kind of nasty though

Individuals may be exposed to hydrazine in the workplace or to small amounts in tobacco smoke. Symptoms of acute (short-term) exposure to high levels of hydrazine may include irritation of the eyes, nose, and throat, dizziness, headache, nausea, pulmonary edema, seizures, and coma in humans. Acute exposure can also damage the liver, kidneys, and central nervous system in humans. The liquid is corrosive and may produce dermatitis from skin contact in humans and animals. Effects to the lungs, liver, spleen, and thyroid have been reported in animals chronically (long-term) exposed to hydrazine via inhalation. Increased incidences of lung, nasal cavity, and liver tumors have been observed in rodents exposed to hydrazine. EPA has classified hydrazine as a Group B2, probable human carcinogen.