FLIGHT MH370, Missing JET

liveforphysics said:
dnmun said:
GOOGLE offers a search service and it will help you find the pictures of the mobile rocket launcher returning to russia with the russian technicians who used it to shoot down MH17.

If we've learned anything from history, that would be CIA spooks posing at Russians bringing launcher.

I don't think the Russians need any help to look like aggressors.

America is a dangerous nation that has committed countless atrocities including murdering Iranian airplane passengers in Iranian territory and giving the mass murderer a medal for his services but that doesn't mean they are wrong about Russia.

But the problem for Europe is that we still need Russian gas and we can't afford any economic shocks. Even small shortages in supply can have devastating impact. It's much easier for America they are insulated. They don't live here we do.

It's a dangerous game and the Russian oligarchs are only too willing to see their country burn to make themselves large wadges of cash by buying up valuable assets at firesale prices. After all, it's how they made their money in the first place.
 
...But the problem for Europe is that we still need Russian gas and we can't afford any economic shocks. Even small shortages in supply can have devastating impact.
..and nobody could foresee that situation arising when they struck a deal for Russian gas ??
Its the price you pay for dealing with the devil..
....eventually he will have your soul !
 
For all the claims that the already broken kneed Russian economy is about to collapse from the embargoes against them, supposedly there's plenty on the shelves, etc. Meanwhile, the German and Italian breaking recessions are being credited to the Russians embargo of the EU.

liveforphysics said:
dnmun said:
GOOGLE offers a search service and it will help you find the pictures of the mobile rocket launcher returning to russia with the russian technicians who used it to shoot down MH17.

If we've learned anything from history, that would be CIA spooks posing at Russians bringing launcher.

Hence the Twitter posting: 'That's right. I'm a Ukrainian separatist that shot down an innocent airliner. And I feel GREAT."

Always a possibility. But that's just a rush to judgement in the opposite direction. (There's also the Ukrainian government they're fighting, there's 3rd parties besides the U.S. with motives.) I DON'T like the way the U.S. was sitting around with all this alleged "Proof," my favorite being the "Recording" that we were told was the Ukrainian who launched the missile calling Putin personally to say 'Ooops.' That only serves to create suspicion.

Joseph C. said:
I don't think the Russians need any help to look like aggressors.

But we'll all still feel better when our own government STOPS forcing that help on people who don't need it. Did I post about all the falsification prior to Desert Storm? This 15 year old Kuwaiti girl was one of many testifying to Congress about the atrocities in Kuwait after the Iraqi's invaded but just before they miraculously escaped. The truth was that she was the daughter of the Kuwaiti Ambassador who was safely in America during and after the invasion. This was a White House program.

Congress wasn't the only one they put on that Dog and Pony show for. The various liars did interviews in the American press. '60 Minutes' was the only one I'm familiar with who covered the uncovering of the hoax. The others didn't want to admit they'd been duped, I suppose.

And if you REALLY believe the hype that you just push button and it finds its' way to the target on its' own, you've been using Windows too long.

Rom Emmanuel said:
Never let a perfectly good crisis go to waste.

[youtube]LmfVs3WaE9Y[/youtube]
 
Hillhater said:
...But the problem for Europe is that we still need Russian gas and we can't afford any economic shocks. Even small shortages in supply can have devastating impact.
..and nobody could foresee that situation arising when they struck a deal for Russian gas ??
Its the price you pay for dealing with the devil..
....eventually he will have your soul !

They only did so because it was convenient and there was a pipeline that was efficient.

But you are completely missing the point. It doesn't matter that they purchased from Russia. Oil and gas doesn't work like that.

Oil and gas operate on a global scale. There is a global supply and global demand. All parts of the global chain affect the price as the demand doesn't decrease. With the Russian gas off the European table there will be a shortage of supply. Even if those EU countries were getting gas from elsewhere (which of course they would do), there would still be a supply problem and an economic shock.

It's a global market. If the Russians can sell their gas to other markets the global supply will be fixed once again but the Russian product will now be more expensive creating higher energy prices and that market certainly can't be developed overnight as the infrastructure will have to be built (basically we are talking about China). European countries will still suffer but not as much if Russia kept the gas.

Economic scenarios for Europe - best to worst:

Russian gas for Europe (no economic energy shock) > Russian gas sells to different market (economic shock) > Russia keeps gas (massive economic shock)

European countries and the EU made that deal with Russia fully aware of the risks. The downsides were outweighed by the advantages. Cheaper gas supplied to them via pipeline to their doorstep.

The EU knows all of the ins and outs of the energy crisis but things can't happen overnight. All of the European countries are switching to renewable energy and provisions are being made for energy storage. As soon as battery grid storage becomes economically feasible it will be adopted. Already there is a switch happening to bioplastics and they have found a way to harvest the bulk of the raw material from seaweed.

But then you get knuckle draggers like Abbott spouting warmongering shite from the comfort of a completely different hemisphere in a country that nobody will ever be bothered to invade. The same moron that thinks an independent Scotland are 'not the friends of justice [or] freedom'. If we wanted an irrelevant dickhead to comment on Europe we would use one of our own. It's not as if we have a shortage of them.

As for dealing with the devil, if you only did business with countries that had immaculate reputations then no international commerce would occur at all. There are no great countries, everyone has got blood on their hands, we are all dirty, muddling along with our hatreds, prejudices and biases each one thinking we are somehow better than the next. We need to believe our own bullshit as it helps us to feel better about ourselves. Deals with the devil...we live in a world full of devils - in a world without angels.

But at the very least European countries can be in control of their own destiny and tell outsiders like the US and the other self-proclaimed 'moral guardians' to mind their own business - its got nothing to do with you. You don't live here we do.
 
Dauntless said:
But we'll all still feel better when our own government STOPS forcing that help on people who don't need it. Did I post about all the falsification prior to Desert Storm? This 15 year old Kuwaiti girl was one of many testifying to Congress about the atrocities in Kuwait after the Iraqi's invaded but just before they miraculously escaped. The truth was that she was the daughter of the Kuwaiti Ambassador who was safely in America during and after the invasion. This was a White House program.

Congress wasn't the only one they put on that Dog and Pony show for. The various liars did interviews in the American press. '60 Minutes' was the only one I'm familiar with who covered the uncovering of the hoax. The others didn't want to admit they'd been duped, I suppose.

It's all good and well doing that in an unpopulated country in the middle of a desert. That doesn't work in the middle of Europe. We have our own journalists and media that don't particularly like the U.S. government (the majority of Europeans have little time for the U.S. government) to suggest a conspiracy theory is ludicrous.

It's been well-documented there are Russian military tanks and artillery making their way across Ukraine under the guise of 'aid'. Those were sophisticated Russian equipment that knocked down those planes (fighters and the passenger plane). I suppose it is possible that they were operated by rebel separatists but the simpler explanation is that it was the Russians themselves - hence why access was denied to the international recovery team.

Putin has been earmarked for a decade or more as being a dangerous bastard. Only in a totalitarian country like Russia would someone like him come to power but that's the price we all paid when the West and the U.S. refused to aid Gorbachev and let the country be taken over by corrupt conmen like Yeltsin. Any chance Russia had at democracy went up in a puff of smoke with that decision.

But the West and the U.S. has always been randomly causal about its application of justice. Just look at the Israeli situation where the Islamophobic government are committing genocide. What has any government done about that? Not a thing. In fact, the U.S. are actively arming the Zionist fundamentalist loons. Nothing good will come from this.

I have read the lunatic's retorts - what about the rockets, what about the terrorists...

Could you imagine the disproportionate response happening anywhere in Europe? Could you imagine the British government bombing nationalist areas of Northern Ireland in response to IRA terrorist attacks? Could you imagine them targeting schools and blowing them up? Could you imagine them effectively deliberately murdering children? Could you imagine them cutting off all access to the outside world, commandeering aid ships in International waters. No, it would never happen.

But it is all right some personality-defective wankers pretending to be a deity in an ancient, heavily edited, book said that they are the promised people and this shit-pile of rocks is where they are supposed to live. To hell with any one else. 'Oh, you already live here...Eh now you don't.'

I will never willing purchase an Israelis product as long as this is what they do to people.
 
Hillhater said:
..and nobody could foresee that situation arising when they struck a deal for Russian gas ??
Its the price you pay for dealing with the devil..
....eventually he will have your soul !

Perhaps I used too much rhetoric and not enough facts. To give you an idea of the figures Russia exports 7.4 million barrels of oil per day. That's more than eight per cent of the world's oil.

Russia exports more than 4.5 per cent of the world's national gas produced per year. That's 18.6 per cent of the world's total natural gas exports. One fifth of all the natural gas that is up for sale on international markets.

No matter how you slice it and no matter who buys what from whom Russia is a major energy player and for the foreseeable future someone has to buy those energy exports or a lot of countries will be screwed. Everything is tied to oil and we all know what happens if there is even a hint of a supply problem. There is an energy crisis and shortage will mean oil prices will head towards the sky.

Then on top of all that we have Russia's clear and obvious imperialist intentions. There is too much at stake for anything other than threading very carefully but we can't allow Putin to start conquering half of Europe either along the lines of another Chamberlain appeasement fiasco.
 
cal3thousand said:
I can't help but feel there is something related about these 2 events beyond just the obvious.
The same airline and the same type of plane, Boeing 777-200ER, crashed only 4 months apart, so it's only natural to try to find some causality/connection with these two events. But we can't let simple coincidences lure us to nonsense conclusions.
Maybe there's some relationship. The management at Malaysian Airlines Systems is sloppy, and perhaps there's some connection there. It allowed a deranged pilot to command MH370, and it also allowed MH17 to fly over combat zones (for the sake of economy). Management was lax, perhaps criminally so, in both instances, but beyond that, I don't see a connection.
For entertainment, see this "proof".
Meanwhile, I, personally, would hesitate to book with them.
 
dnmun said:
GOOGLE offers a search service and it will help you find the pictures of the mobile rocket launcher returning to russia with the russian technicians who used it to shoot down MH17.
I (along with uncountable other people) asked for the satellite photo evidence my country's (the US's) government is relying on. And you tell me to do a Google search to find some pics that you haven't bothered to find yourself?
Are these what the US government is using to back up it's case that the Russians or the Russian-leaning rebels did it?
Well, maybe I can help you, in that case, which pic are you talking about? The one with the snow on the ground? Or maybe the grainy telescopic one showing BUK-A 312?

Perhaps you are talking about the air traffic control recordings that Kiev-gov has? I'm having trouble Goggling for them. Can you post a link to them?

Maybe this is what you want me to find with Google.
 
Joseph C. said:
It's all good and well doing that in an unpopulated country in the middle of a desert. That doesn't work in the middle of Europe. We have our own journalists and media that don't particularly like the U.S. government (the majority of Europeans have little time for the U.S. government) to suggest a conspiracy theory is ludicrous.

What does the middle of Europe have to do with anything? What do European journalists have to do with anything?

Joseph C. said:
I have read the (People other than the writers') retorts - what about the rockets, what about the terrorists...

Could you imagine the disproportionate response happening anywhere in Europe? Could you imagine the British government bombing nationalist areas of Northern Ireland in response to IRA terrorist attacks? Could you imagine them targeting schools and blowing them up? Could you imagine them effectively deliberately murdering children? Could you imagine them cutting off all access to the outside world, commandeering aid ships in International waters. No, it would never happen.

Could you imagine the IRA shooting rockets? (Which would be targeting school and deliberately murdering children, as the Hamas rockets are.) Could you imagine there being ANYONE objecting to the British Government response to THAT, EVEN IF THEY HAD AN AGENDA AGAINST THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT? Could you imagine the British NOT going to war with Germany after the Battle of Britain and the London Blitz? What you're talking about is exactly how the English government would respond, with the support of the rest of the world. Oops.

Joseph C. said:
But it is all right some personality-defective wankers pretending to be a deity in an ancient, heavily edited, book said that they are the promised people and this shit-pile of rocks is where they are supposed to live. To hell with any one else. 'Oh, you already live here...Eh now you don't.'

I will never willing purchase an Israelis product as long as this is what they do to people.

Well, yeah, we all know YOU are the promised people. How is it that there isn't a another ancient, heavily eidted book pointing that out? (Dang, if I tee off on this one it'll really get intense.)
 
Oh I forgot you had great difficulty following coherent thoughts. Nevermind carry on with your conspiracy false flag crackpot nonsense.

The IRA are a terrorist organisation. Israel is supposedly a democratic country. Germany is another country. Countries go to war - it happens but it's a categorical error to confuse that with the Israel situation . It's beyond moronic that I have to point that out. Israel had taken their land, blockaded them from the outside world. Effectively they're prisoners. But in Dauntless's world it's the Palestineans' fault for Israelis war crimes. I knew parts of the US were heavily indoctrinated but I hope your not representative of the population.

I don't even what you're talking about in the last passage but it's once again in the nutcase category.
 
So darn, you made me late for the trivia game at this restaurant. Shows how important YOU are, I didn't even bother to finish a response for you before at least TRYING to get there before the game started. . . .

Joseph C. said:
Oh I forgot you had great difficulty following coherent thoughts. Nevermind carry on with your conspiracy false flag crackpot nonsense.

And to what do you attribute this forgetfulness of yours? A lack of focus? Were you too busy with all the rage at your own inadequacy at being unable to respond respectably that caused you to insult what you're unable to understand? All this perfection in yourself that you attempt to portray, yet you cannot form a coherent thought beyond your hatred of Jews. I followed that just fine, so as to your coherent thought I have a perfect record of following it. Hate itself is not a coherent thought, however. Even as I can follow that you live to hate, that doesn't mean you have a coherent thought on it for me to follow, other than your hatred of Jews.

Joseph C. said:
The IRA are a terrorist organisation. Israel is supposedly a democratic country. Germany is another country. Countries go to war - it happens but it's a categorical error to confuse that with the Israel situation . It's beyond moronic that I have to point that out.

Actually, you DIDN'T have to point that out, it was quite inappropriate that you DID. That was your most disorganized thought yet. (No, I didn't use the word just to spell it right, but that made it fun.) Your effort to analyze your own confusion is, confusing. Do you not recognize Palestine as a country? Do you not recognize Hamas as ELECTED to the government? (As in voted for by the other people you encounter in Palestine.) If only they'd focused on their agenda of relief programs: funding schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, feeding the poor, etc. They had the chance to erase their early years, now that they were essentially the country. But your response shows you didn't know that. Or didn't care.

Al Qaeda, meanwhile, was NOT running Afghanistan, yet the U.S. invaded Afghanistan to get to Al Qaeda. Need I go on? Or are you in any way capable of noticing that foot in your mouth? Is it your right or left?

Joseph C. said:
Israel had taken their land, blockaded them from the outside world. Effectively they're prisoners. But in Dauntless's world it's the Palestineans' fault for Israelis war crimes. I knew parts of the US were heavily indoctrinated but I hope your not representative of the population.

I don't even what you're talking about in the last passage but it's once again in the nutcase category.

You don't know what I'm talking about in all of this, because it's reality. At least you admit I'm talking about a nutcase. Yeah, Israel knows what it's like to be blockaded. Much of the free world supports the blockade Israel has put up.

Let's see, in Dauntless' world, A.K.A. REALITY, there is the 'Quartet on the Middle East.' Two countries, the United States and Russia, plus two Unions, The United Nations and the European Union. Can you keep up with that? (I hope you'd dropped the pretense of knowing anything.) Prior to the escalation of the rocket attacks whatever 6 or so years ago that was, the Quartet on the Middle East told HAMAS that any assistance or even recognition of the Palestinian National Authority was contingent on Hamas laying off the violence. Which of course it hasn't done. Israel is cut a huge amount of slack because they actually are showing great restraint, under the circumstances. Israel has absorbed a lot more pain than they'd have had to if they'd gone ahead and dealt fully with Hamas previously in a consequences be damned Dubya manner. I have a hard time believing the most hard liner IRA types would have taken Hamas actions in stride. You're pretty much standing alone in the nonHamas world. Or are you a part of Hamas? (Or just unable to get up the nerve to join.)

But this is all just reality I'm giving you. I'm not sure what you think absolves these "Palestineans'" of their role in it. No, they're not all in it any more than all Americans (Parts?) were supporting Dubya's invasion of Iraq. But we knew that if they found a way to strike back, we'd have to take it, support the invasion or not. But that too is reality, all too much for you.

Another important reality is that if you take this antisemitism thing of yours too far they'll end up banning you. Just because people give up on such a vile creature as your posts show you to be doesn't mean you've won anything. I have a way of being the last one trying to talk sense into people like you here, mainly because the others don't see the point. Also, your all around hatefulness to everyone whom you can't verbally browbeat into submission will cause them to draw a line.

I think of it more that I want others coming here for the first time to realize you're as much an outcast here as in real life. The rest of us are reasonable, largely friendly (Even if the arguments get a little too spirited sometimes) and yes, JEWS ARE WELCOME HERE! When someone like you struts your hatred unchallenged, people can easily make assumptions. Just as you assume that when people stop talking to you that you've won some great victory.

. . . .Oh, but don't feel bad about making me miss the game. Turned out they didn't have one tonight, it's almost as irregular as you are. But not quite. Here I go up against whole teams at other tables, but I can't get a team together because I just don't know anyone else around here that knows much of anything, besides these people who are on teams. All by myself I can place second or third against a room full of tables with 4 or more people working together. It's been suggested I could join one of them sometime and we'd win.

Isn't there any way you could see that as a much better life than all your sulking and hating?
 
Dauntless said:
yet you cannot form a coherent thought beyond your hatred of Jews. I followed that just fine, so as to your coherent thought I have a perfect record of following it. Hate itself is not a coherent thought, however. Even as I can follow that you live to hate, that doesn't mean you have a coherent thought on it for me to follow, other than your hatred of Jews.

I don't hate Jews. Neither do I hate Muslims, Christians, Hindus or Buddhists and to say that I do is the mark of a low-life individual. I think theistic religious beliefs are a folly of mankind but in no way does that mean I hate people who believe as long as they are moderate. If people want to talk about their omnipotent magic overseer that's fine. It doesn't mean I'll take them seriously but I certainly won't hate them for it.

Who I do loathe are extremists - Islamists, fundamentalist Christians and Zionists. They are all threats to peace and stability particularly the Islamists.

Gaza isn't a country. It is a blockaded territory cut off from the western world. I know you have severe difficulty comprehending that but I write this not for your benefit, as that would be a waste of my time, but for others. That's why the comparison to Northern Ireland is apt. Israel are in control of Gaza. They control who gets in or out, they even control the electricity.

Similarly, Northern Ireland was under control of the UK during The Troubles. When the IRA were murdering people in Northern Ireland - when they were murdering people in various cities across England - in the same manner as Hamas - the UK never waged air strikes mass murdering civilians. Because they are a democracy not terrorists.

Hamas are terrorists. So no, I don't condone them. :roll:

Yes the great threat of Al Qaeda, Afghanistan and Iraq to the U.S. and world peace. I'll be your surrogate and let you in on a little open secret - seeing as you're continually solipsistically projecting yourself onto me.

Saudi Arabia - were most likely (almost 100 per cent) responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

The vast majority of the attackers were Saudis, Osama Bin Laden was a member of the Saudi royal family.

You can put a name on any organisation. But to see who was really behind it all you have to do is follow the money and it goes back to Saudi Arabia.

Similarly, ISIS is thought to be funded by the rich and wealthy of Qatar - Saudi neighbours. And if it actually isn't them you can bet it is Saudi Arabia.

I've no idea why the US invaded Afghanistan. Certainly logic had nothing to do with it apart from feeding the U.S. war machine.

Iraq is a different story. They threatened the US economically by daring to have the temerity to switch from the dollar to the euro when it came to purchasing oil. The U.S. then fabricated evidence, which every man and his dog knew to be false, as a pretext for invasion. That, and feeding the U.S. war machine. I suppose Israel is a similar situation on that front too.

Protecting the world from Al Qaeda is nice propaganda but if the U.S. was genuine in its intentions it would have invaded Saudi Arabia not two countries that had little-to-nothing to do with the terrorist attacks.

Another important reality is that if you take this antisemitism thing of yours too far they'll end up banning you. Just because people give up on such a vile creature as your posts show you to be doesn't mean you've won anything. I have a way of being the last one trying to talk sense into people like you here, mainly because the others don't see the point. Also, your all around hatefulness to everyone whom you can't verbally browbeat into submission will cause them to draw a line.

That was a rather special kind of lunacy - even for you. :mrgreen:

I realise that there is a weird mantra in the U.S. where any criticism of Israel, never mind a vehement attack like mine, makes you automatically anti-Jewish but I hope any rational human being can see that the two are completely independent.

I must admit your whole quartet of the righteous raised a chuckle. :lol:

What I can say to others reading this thread is that the majority of Irish people and large swathes of Europe were appalled by Israel's actions. That doesn't make us anti-Jewish, neither does it make us supporters of terrorists and Hamas.

And there are plenty of Jewish people in Ireland that feel the exact same. Does condemning Israeli air strikes make Lenny Abrahamson and plenty of others self-loathing? Of course not. This is also doubly true of the UK where Israel means little to Jewish people. Does that mean that they hate themselves too?

No - because once again the two things are completely independent of one another.

Are there anti-Jewish extremists in Europe. Yes, of course there are - I can't pretend that problem doesn't exist. There is a rising tide of Islamist extremism that is becoming prevalent everywhere a problem that will only grow worse as long as it is tolerated.I suspect that these extremists are responsible for much of the anti-Jewish sentiment and the attacks in France and Berlin and there will be others that are not Islamist doing the same.

That still doesn't mean condemning the Israeli murdering of civilians and children makes you anti-Jewish. It makes you a human with empathy.


dogman said:

Sorry Dogman, I realise that you could well be talking about me dragging threads off-topic and creating extra work for the mods and I am certainly guilty of that here.

I can't allow someone to portray me as something that I am clearly not. But this will be my last reply on the subject.
 
Israel the military power is quite a different thing from Israel the tribe. Conflating the two is for fools and scoundrels.

I hope I live to see the downfall of modern Israel the nation, and I think that's not unlikely.
 
Chalo said:
I hope I live to see the downfall of modern Israel the nation, and I think that's not unlikely.

Yea, the Arabs driving us all into the sea would be awesome, I agree.
 
dingoEsride said:
Oh no, another Malay plane missing, looks like due to bad weather though......
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30614627
32,000 feet, no Mayday. If the cause were weather, the crew would have had time to send a Mayday.
Some argue that in those last few minutes, a crew has better things to do than send a Mayday. But I believe humans have a desire for company when danger is at the door. There are at least 2 crew members who could send and a transmission and it's very simple to do so.
 
no, the plane was last observed on radar at 36,300 and climbing and speed of 353 knots, slow.

the primary reason the ELT never was activated when the plane hit the water would be if the plane suffered catastrophic failure such as an explosion or failure of the airframe.

there was no radar track from the final radar observation so it seems likely the plane failed catastrophically at speed maybe as the tail structure or elevators failed and pitched the plane so that the wings were torn off and the cabin ripped open at the 36,300' last seen. the thunderstorm it was flying over at the time was like a big black spot on the radar surrounded by the huge red colors of the thunderstorms. just like AF447 over the atlantic three years ago now.

that is basically what happened to MH17 when the russians shot it down.
 
Nehmo said:
32,000 feet, no Mayday. If the cause were weather, the crew would have had time to send a Mayday.

Not necessary, as Dnumm explains a severe failure could have occured due to the storm and if you are falling from the sky a SOS call may not be possible,
there are reports of debris found in the ocean near the disappearance of this craft so not a crime I doubt
 
Recovering QZ-8501 bodies and debris in relatively shallow waters this will soon be understood. My sympathies to the families of those lost....

Place to go for factual information regarding this and all aircraft incidents:

http://avherald.com/h?article=47f6abc7&opt=0
 
Another Air Asia plane incident makes the headlines as it overshoots a runway in Manilla. There is a stereotype of Asian pilots being regarded as one of the worst in the industry for being too obsequious to authority. The French are thought to be in the same boat conversely for the opposite problem - arrogance not matching ability. 2014 has been a terrible year for the two Malaysian airlines.
 
Back
Top