The fingers said:
Yeap, Indonesian authorities aren't too happy. Although obviously that wouldn't be a factor in the crash.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2015/01/indonesia-threatens-cancel-airasia-licence-201513112443988534.html
FLIGHT MH370, Missing JET
- Thread starter nechaus
- Start date
Yeap, Indonesian authorities aren't too happy. Although obviously that wouldn't be a factor in the crash.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2015/01/indonesia-threatens-cancel-airasia-licence-201513112443988534.html
The fingers
10 TW
The fingers
10 TW
dnmun
1 PW
i have heard the data recorders showed a climb rate of 6,000'/minute at the end, well in excess of design limits, and that the pilots were still trying to fly the plane through it. the plane may have stalled during this climb and they could not recover control through the normal aileron control systems so it may have pancaked from 36,000'. no bomb. maybe hitting water while inverted.
Hillhater
100 TW
It is fairly obvious this plane just got blown out of the sky by a severe storm which they were well aware of.
But I still do not understand why they were any where near this storm.
We may well get a detailed account of how the plane was tossed around by an unforeseen up/down draft, but that is exactly why civil aircraft don't go near tropical storms.
I just hope they ask the question ..why ?
But I still do not understand why they were any where near this storm.
We may well get a detailed account of how the plane was tossed around by an unforeseen up/down draft, but that is exactly why civil aircraft don't go near tropical storms.
I just hope they ask the question ..why ?
Alan B
100 GW
In the US planes are not allowed to fly through storms of this magnitude.
The situation is not the same everywhere in the world. Permission to deviate from flight path may not be available.
I've heard in this case variously that they requested and were denied, and that they didn't get an answer before they crashed. Not sure what the whole story is there.
The situation is not the same everywhere in the world. Permission to deviate from flight path may not be available.
I've heard in this case variously that they requested and were denied, and that they didn't get an answer before they crashed. Not sure what the whole story is there.
dnmun
1 PW
yep, air traffic control denied request to change altitude in order to climb over the storm. they said there was other traffic in the area so they denied the request.
Alan B
100 GW
As I understand it there is little point to climbing with a storm like that, it goes higher than commercial aircraft can. The interview I saw indicated that detouring around is appropriate, but with the density of airspace there that may be more difficult than in the US.
dnmun
1 PW
no, air traffic control should have allowed the pilot to avoid it. they will blame a lotta people but the mistake was made then.
Hillhater
100 TW
I know I have said this before , but....
The pilot should have made the decision himself to take appropriate action ..( up, down, turn around etc) .. Even if Air traffic control refused permission, Rather than fly into a known critical risk storm.
It's the Captains responsibility for his aircraft and all the souls on board, it's HIS decision.
The risk of a mid air collision with another craft is negligible in comparison to entering a major storm zone.
I can understand pilots feel pressured by commercial considerations and professional reprimands for ignoring atc instructions, but this is the kind of result you get from failing to take the correct action at the right time.
The pilot should have made the decision himself to take appropriate action ..( up, down, turn around etc) .. Even if Air traffic control refused permission, Rather than fly into a known critical risk storm.
It's the Captains responsibility for his aircraft and all the souls on board, it's HIS decision.
The risk of a mid air collision with another craft is negligible in comparison to entering a major storm zone.
I can understand pilots feel pressured by commercial considerations and professional reprimands for ignoring atc instructions, but this is the kind of result you get from failing to take the correct action at the right time.
Nehmo
10 kW
Did you even read that piece? I confess to only spending a few minutes or so before I gave up after attempting a few sections. I noticed it was big on style and low on reason, containing arguments that have now even been abandoned by the pro-Kiev crowd.Joseph C. said:
One section I was able to plow through was the part trying to explain why nobody saw the missile go up. There's a long lyrical description of the difficulties of living in a conflict area, and if you read carefully, it seems to say people are scared to report anything: "The inhabitants of the separatists’ territory are afraid – of the pro-Russian separatists and of the Ukrainian army. They don’t want to say anything wrong."
For a few years, I lived Daytona Beach, Florida, USA, which is 100 km from the launch pads of Cape Canaveral. In addition to the huge rockets, like the one for the space shuttle (very, very, bright and impressive, btw), numerous small rockets are launched from there. Many of them aren't even advance-reported in the local newspapers (and we didn't have internet back then). But often pictures of the small sub-orbital rockets accompany news releases. I, always a fan of space exploration and the technology associated with it, watched hundreds of rockets go up. Anybody today can still do it.
Anyway, an observer at the Daytona Beach distance can easily see the vapor/exhaust trail from even the small rockets, and the trails don't instantly disappear. Even if the you miss the actual rocket going up, the evidence lingers in the sky for several minutes. There is no way something the size of a BUK would go unnoticed or, nowadays, even un-photographed.
[youtube]DDXScnEKaP0[/youtube]
If you have the courage to read non-mainstream news sites, the issue of the lack of the trail is dealt with.
RT has produced a new vid on the subject. In addition to dealing with the downing itself, the vid spends some time addressing the reporting of other English-language news agencies, which it finds as biased.
[youtube]fwC9RJopkHU[/youtube]
There is also the nagging issue of absent US satellite photos. Why has the US not released the evidence? As anybody who has followed this story knows, we (the US) had a missile-detecting satellite coincidentally over Ukraine at the time of the downing of MH17.
(This really should be a different thread. These are different planes.)
dnmun
1 PW
you know it is a twisted world when a reagan republican redneck is defending the russian army in the commission of crimes against humanity.
and 1984 is already 30 years behind us. my last paper too.
and 1984 is already 30 years behind us. my last paper too.
Nehmo
10 kW
I specifically stated my question and the "answer" contained in the article, and I certainly read that section of the article. There is no need to do more than skim the rest of the article, particularly since much of it is simply window dressing created in an effort to gain sympathy for the author's point of view. If you have a specific issue, point or argument you like, please point it out, and I will address that. As it is, you are only expressing general approval. But your approval is perplexing because, for one thing, we have no idea what it is based on.Joseph C. said:
You said the articles was "seemingly well researched". And you also vaguely insinuated something about Russia's involvement in the downing.
I pointed out the lack of (witnesses who said they saw or photos of) a visible trail from the missile. I posted a vid showing such a trail and recounted my own experience seeing them from other rockets. I recounted the article's weak explanation, and, finally, I posted the latest RT vid on the subject, which addresses the issue.
If you want to seriously contribute to the reasoning in this thread, you need to respond to that issue. Otherwise, a reader must conclude you don't have an response or are unwilling to provide it.
To repeat: What happened to the vapor-exhaust trail to the rocket that you believe in?
TheBeastie
1 MW
Nehmo said:
The downing of MH17 by Russian fighters is a simple fact, in fact its basically a good worlds biggest retard elimination test to believe it wasn't Putins/Russias fault..
Using BUK missiles, Russian fighters had been shooting down Ukrainian (normally military planes like the AN-26) aircraft over the last few weeks to the point where it was becoming a routine for Russian-backed fighters.
It was in fact becoming so routine that pro-Russian media, facebook and pro-Russian commanders were twittering things like "this will teach Ukraine they can't fly into our air space" in the minutes after the missile was fired, when they learned they had shot down a civilian aircraft all these internet posts were hastily removed but some are still stuck in google cache, which they can't remove aside from hacking into google.
Says it all even in its heading "Donetsk People’s Republic militia downs another Ukraine’s An-26 plane "
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741164
Its got the July 17 2014 date and everything.... As it happened on July 17th http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17
Sure this kind of stuff wasn't constantly reported about on CNN or whatever etc, because its not easily digestible news, most media outlets choose what to report on based on how easily it can be told and absorbed, they don't want to confuse the customer or face loosing them.
To a missile launch system a AN26 is a big fat aircraft that would look alot like Boeing 777 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-26
It was just another routine attack and the Russians got caught with their pants down, running around with the black box for a week or so after the crash until the decided to give it back etc, its as caught red handed as you can get, again you have to be retarded to see it any other way.
I can understand this Russian reporter on youtube trying to cast a different story and point of view because its an embarrassment to their country, can't blame them for trying but its just stupid garbage.
Nehmo
10 kW
TheBeastie said:
You call much of the world retards, etc, you have a peculiar definition of "fact", but you didn't answer the questions, one of which you even quoted.
What happened to the rocket trail? Where are the US satellite pics?
You want a satellite video of the particular missile launch? Even if such a thing exists it, releasing it would mean the U.S. military giving away its capabilities.
People are obsessed with conspiracy theories. Occam's Razor suggests that where Ukrainian jet fighters are being regularly shot down whilst sharing airspace with civilian airliners, sooner or later an airliner gets hit by mistake.
People are obsessed with conspiracy theories. Occam's Razor suggests that where Ukrainian jet fighters are being regularly shot down whilst sharing airspace with civilian airliners, sooner or later an airliner gets hit by mistake.
Nehmo
10 kW
We of the US paid $10 billion USD* for the Space-Based Infrared System (SBIRS) that covers the entire world detecting missile launches. SBIRS GEO 1 and SBIRS GEO 2 satellites were in view of eastern Ukraine at the time Flight MH17 went down. Additionally, a SBIRS payload mounted on an NRO satellite (named USA 184) was also over the region. And from a side angle, there were AWCS covering the region as well.Punx0r said:
U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry told NBC News on Sunday that intelligence officials knew the trajectory of the rocket and could trace its origin to a rebel-held region. Transcript of that Meet the Press.
The area we are talking about is one of the most hotly contested pieces of real estate in the world. What satellite position/location info I provided is only a sampling of what is publicly known. I imagine there are some low-orbit birds that the general public doesn't know about too.
*If these satellites can't provide what they are supposed to, maybe we need to ask for our money back!
If the death of almost 300 people in an event of the absolute highest geo-political consequences doesn't merit the release of pics or data, I don't know what would. Releasing similar photos or data is common.The US has already released numerous satellite pics for other causes.Punx0r said:
What "capabilities" are you talking about anyway. Resolution? That can easily be reduced. Field of view? Crop the pic. --- Such speculation is silly. The reason the US (my country) isn't releasing satellite evidence is because it would reveal a truth that is inconvenient for those in power.
Hillhater
100 TW
.??...meaning what exactly ?Nehmo said:
You seem to say the evidence is definitely there and there is no reason to hide it,....
...but then imply that they won't release it to avoid embarrassing themselves ????
I'm confused as well.
The Wikipedia page for the SBIRS says it's designed to spot ballistic missiles, which I'm fairly sure is quite different to the typical flightpath of a BUK missile. Unless it's known this system has detected BUK launches before then it's speculation. And yes, I do think the capability (or not) to do that would be worth the U.S. keeping secret. Unfortunately, the loss of hundreds of lives is likely to be insignificant to the military machine. I.e. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
What does the Nationalpost link doesn't prove? Still images of remains of what look like missile launches. Take of a previously identified area? Are they necessarily satellite and not aerial photos? You implied that satellites could automatically detect a BUK launch and video it. Quite different IMO...
The Wikipedia page for the SBIRS says it's designed to spot ballistic missiles, which I'm fairly sure is quite different to the typical flightpath of a BUK missile. Unless it's known this system has detected BUK launches before then it's speculation. And yes, I do think the capability (or not) to do that would be worth the U.S. keeping secret. Unfortunately, the loss of hundreds of lives is likely to be insignificant to the military machine. I.e. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
What does the Nationalpost link doesn't prove? Still images of remains of what look like missile launches. Take of a previously identified area? Are they necessarily satellite and not aerial photos? You implied that satellites could automatically detect a BUK launch and video it. Quite different IMO...
Nehmo
10 kW
The US government definitely has evidence of every missile launch. There would be no reason to hide the evidence if it supported the position of the US government. The US government, at least the current oligarchy, backs the coup-installed current government at Kiev (Kiev gov, henceforward here for brevity, but remember they didn't get voted-in, and a good many people of Ukraine do not recognize it as their government). Therefore, the release of the pics would reveal something the US gov doesn't want. What could that be? Since the narrative of the US gov is that the separatists shot down MH17, the evidence likely exonerates them.Hillhater said:
And if they didn't do it, the Kiev gov did.
