fractional reserve

[nicobie]

So glad to hear all that Gordo, totally accords with my Australian experience. Thankfully in Australia we have an aboriginal activist called Noel Pearson, the guy is a deadset legend, and understands the only way that he will emancipate his people, is to get them off the welfare handout, and being self reliant proud people. The policitics of aboriginal culture in Australia is some of the most nasty shit you will ever see (makes the Australian Union movement look like a bunch of pussies, and they regularly break peoples legs and have them fall under shipping containers). This guy Noel Pearson is just a godsend to the welfare of Aboriginal people, he really is the Martin Luthar King of Australia's indeginous folk. In my opinion he will single handedly deliver economic outcomes for his people that will surpass fifty years of throwing money wastefully at welfare. It's funny what you said Gordo about the Aussie consultants, I am fully aware of that "industry".

Hahahahhahhaaa...

In the wonderful USA the whole problem was solved with Indian Bingo

 

[deVries]

The real problem with the banking sector, more so now a problem with the U.S. rather than Europe, is that no one is regulating this industry.

What caused this? The precursor was underfunding the FEC as a facade & fraud for regulating politicians' donations by just making it a reporting agency without funding to prosecute or investigate & report bribery. In addition, Presidential Debates are controlled by the Republicans & Democrats with the power to effectively lock-out 3rd parties from participation to grow gradually over years & decades.

The USA is both a Fascist-Socialized system for the wealthy power elites in Wall Street & Banking that used deregulation to create new unregulated financial instruments that leveraged that industry into the dominate "production industry" of the USA that is based on financial fraud at its root-system of power & control. Our financial system is so top heavy that it does nothing productive in producing real goods & services except to steal company's assets by raping it to enrich themselves in return for The Big Lie! Yes, everything is better off to have gotten rid of all those inefficient employees & their factory we now get for pennies on the dollar overseas. Whoopee, what a deal for you & for me!

You have cronies in Universities getting paid by interest groups to disseminate deregulated Austrian School of economics bullshit.

This is really a Ron Paul phenomenon. The Gold industry seems to support ideas based on the Gold Standard, and there is a lot of association of these "Gold Standard" believers as Ron Paul supporters too.

From Wikipedia... "Supporters of the Austrian business cycle theory respond that the theory applies to the expansion of the money supply, not necessarily an expansion done by a central bank. Historian Thomas Woods argues that the crashes were caused by various privately-owned banks with state charters that issued paper money, supposedly convertible to gold, in amounts greatly exceeding their gold reserves."

If Woods is correct, then why base a monetary system on gold?

From Wikipedia... "Jeffrey Sachs observes that among developed countries, those with high rates of taxation and high social welfare spending perform better on most measures of economic performance compared to countries with low rates of taxation and low social outlays. He concludes that Friedrich Hayek was wrong to argue that high levels of government spending harms an economy, and "a generous social-welfare state is not a road to serfdom but rather to fairness, economic equality and international competitiveness."[107] Austrian economist Sudha Shenoy countered by claiming that countries with large public sectors have grown more slowly.[108]"

Ronald Regan fired all the Air Traffic Controllers to continue the long march of perennial Republican ideology to destroy labor unions and any national social welfare programs including Social Security too. This is a form of "evil", imo, because it does nothing to improve the lives of the people that were fired. Hiring inexperienced labor at lower prices to replace these workers only began the vicious cycle towards the race to the bottom of lower wages, longer work hours, more family workers, & a lower standard of living for the majority of people except the wealthy ruling class in the financial industries that have manipulated the politics worldwide connecting with other power elites in foreign lands that are far less democratic to export ever cheaper goods to exploit their own populations for more wealth & power in the hands of a few.

The entire school of economics then becomes corrupted. You have moronic politicians who haven't a clue accepting terrible advice from their advisers - who are paid by the special interest groups. You have corrupt Finance Ministers such as Henry Paulson and Timothy Geithner all financial/banking insiders.

President Obama is an intelligent academic that has no real world common sense in leadership skills to reform our dysfunctional Banking & Wall Street national default. Combine that with an incredible teleprompter presentation speech skills with charisma, and he could get people to believe in change in 2008 but he stopped doing that after the election. He is too self-assured yet dependent on the arrogance of a sociopathic intelligentsia that rules in group think all the way from his Harvard schooling to the installed base of financial kings and their barons controlling DC & NYC & foreign government infiltration too. Obama wasted his Presidency and leadership abilities working in the background for Health Care Reform while Rome was burning. He needed to be very visible & a crusader to eliminate the financial evils that were so exposed & harmful to the entire nation. Wasn't that a no-brainer to do that?

WTF did Obama keep Larry Summers or any of these other proven failures in his administration? WTF hasn't the Dept. of Justice & SEC been geared-up to 50x their previous size to prosecute the hell out of the "evil doers" (as Bushie would say) & force new laws to be created to regulate these bastards & fund their regulation & prosecution for the next 100 years & beyond?

There is no lack of lawyers or fraud laws to have hunted down these scum bags already, but the willpower to do it. This is proof enough for me that the system is a fraud, & we are lead by a Fascist-Socialist government controlled by financial fraud sociopaths that control the majority of our economy that is now the Banking system & Wall Street leveraged on ever expanding toilet paper to replace our REAL labor & to export our valuable natural resources, rather than produce real goods & services here in the USA.

To make matters worse you had a corrupt clown like Alan Greenspan in charge of the Federal Reserve for nearly two decades who deregulated the whole industry during that period.

Even Greenspan said under oath the system failed & should have never been trusted to self-regulate. What a stupid-ass from the beginning to the end.

Finally, the financial markets (which should be closed down) make everything more unstable with ridiculous gambling (derivatives), credit debt swap insurers such as AIG leveraging out insurance to all an sundry (regardless if they actually own the asset or not) without having any reserve to guarantee bad debts.

Yup, it's a fraud economy that has taken over our previous Real Economy.

All of the above exist in a miasmal sea of toothless, de-staffed, disempowered regulators.

Damn straight

Who started all this? Well you can thank Thatcher who gave Reagan the opportunity to implement all this. And there are still people on this forum who support deregulation and want to elect a politician who supports more deregulation - the mind boggles.

That's because so many suck the hateful tits of media millionaires like Rush Limbaugh & other such idiots or Fox Opinion Hosts that brainwash & hatewash the airwaves & internet with their matrix of pod receptors. For the ideologically higher educated the appeal is made with Think Tanks or Religious Universities for those that are "so" intelligent.

I certainly have become a lifetime Independent from any party. I want no political parties. There should be public funding of campaigns. Both the House & Senate must have term limits. Lobbying on behalf of corporations & other non-persons would be banished. Representatives would be required to read & understand all legislation & present it online with their commentary & analysis with public review & constituent commentary allowed for 90 days before passing anything. Only declared wars & states of national emergencies can allow for faster legislation when unforeseen needs arise.

I'm not a Utopian & realize there will always be less fortunate circumstances & unfair situations for some percentage of the population. Not everyone can be middle class or rich financially, because some people will opt out of the system or they can't achieve that status for numerous reasons. Some people can not become self-supporting & will need help from other people & their financial resources. When you become old or sick, *you* will be dependent on others whether you have money or not.

Our economic system in the USA should support non-wealthy workers that have lost their jobs through no fault of their own with guaranteed training & education (when needed) & a new job of equal pay they had before (except for wealthy people). Whether that is done with Labor Union, Local, State, National Government, and Insurance contributions, I don't really care. But we all should have a right to work to continue to support our family & afford retirement.

 

[deVries]

I don't use debt even if I could potentially profit from it because I KNOW it's WRONG and makes people's lives hell. I don't use banks and credit cards because I've NEVER met a banker that didn't deserve a painful execution and by using their system, at all, I'd further empower them.

(quote trimmed down by me)

My integrity is that I will not disadvantage anyone else to increase my own wealth. My compassion is to make sure that beyond helping fund the "socialist government programs" through taxes, I contribute not only money, but time to help out those in need. I couldn't do any of that being a "homeless outcast refugee". I do it far better as an IT professional, who is well paid, and therefore can use valuable skills to contribute to society - that society will then remunerate me for, and which I can use in the ways described above. Poverty is not a virtue - Charity is. The poor cannot serve their community as much as the rich can.

[...]

Do you not get the point that every time a loan is given out, EVERYONE else's money becomes worth less???

What if the person that took out the loan produced a product that saves your life? It also saves the lives of millions of people over time. Therefore many people lived & kept much more money in circulation. Beyond the money part these people received what is priceless & could never be repaid by any amount of money or loans. One of these people was a beautiful woman that becomes your wife, & so you have a long life in love together. 8)

Was everyone's money worth less or more?

Your integrity is something you've tricked yourself into so you can sleep at night. I'll type it out again. If you use banks and big unethical corporations.....AT ALL......even though you ADMIT that they've behaved in horrible and unethical ways, YOU ARE FURTHER EMPOWERING THEM TO SCREW MORE PEOPLE. Sorry about the caps. It's not intended to be yelling, just emphasis so my point is understood. It's a pretty simple one but for some reason it keeps getting overlooked or dismissed.

You seem like a very smart person........time to work on the honesty and integrity thing......seriously. If you use the products of a corrupt system that's ran by EVIL people and causes social inequity, you ARE supporting that system.

"No man can be an island." We are all not given a choice of when or where to be born including selecting our parents or citizenship & market system. There are no time machines to go elsewhere. Do we not have to "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's."

Do most people question the fundamentals of the financial system we are born within, or are we given extensive education about how this market system works vs other alternative or competing ideas too?

What other time & place do you think you could go to to escape this situation that would present you with a better life overall assuming you start off with the same status you have now?

For example, I feel bad for using this computer right now because I know that Liberia is in the shape it's in so people can have cheap laptops and the people that sell them can still make lots of money. I'm trying to ween myself from it though because I know it's wrong and if this laptop breaks.....I'll do everything I can to fix it. My last laptop lasted ten years and I was inside of it every few months for the last 5 until it did something I couldn't figure out (a little black chip with no labeling on it quit). I keep using a laptop because it's basically the only tool to promote change that I have.

Ahhh, you do understand that "no man is an island", and the Internet & your computer was built on huge amounts of financial leverage & loans in the trillions of dollars by now & into the future. :wink: So, use that financial leverage & loans to do what you can to improve the world & be part of it fully if you really want to change what's wrong with it too. Some money and a loan might help save someone's life both physically & psychologically too.

No one knows how to eliminate criminal behavior on the micro or macro scale in politics & finance, so it has to be constantly monitored, investigated, and prosecuted to be kept to a minimum. We have been doing just the opposite of that since the 1980's in the USA thanks to the ideology of deregulation. Financial fraud & bribery flourishes in our national politics & financial markets, since it's been deregulated & not funded to prevent detection & prosecution. The FEC (Federal Election Commission) & SEC (Securities Exchange Commission) are not given enough powers & funding to prevent or prosecute these crimes, and, now, it has spread into the Banking & Insurance markets thanks to Glass Steagall being repealed in 1999.

 

[deVries]

Check out Joe Rogan's podcast with Micheal Ruppert. Research the facts. Then try to sleep at night knowing that by participating, you are supporting an evil, unethical, and immoral system.

Hey, I checked-out the video, but it's so disjointed & just throwing conspiracy theories & 1/2 truths out there including some complete falsehoods... like WTF, maybe those in total agreement need to learn how to distinguish fact from fiction & that one fact (or more) does not prove one's assumptions, motives, or conclusions about the original screw-up(s) that may be factual. I hope communes or perma-culture or other off-the-grid philosophical groups they seem to be offering as an alternative to modern economies can do better than "conspiracy theories" as their basis for existence. The host & guest were certainly very excited about sexy hippie chicks as an essential ingredient.

Joe Rogan's podcast with Micheal Ruppert (For example, see 1:25:00 one hour twenty-five minutes for wacko 911 crap.)

The Amish have survived for well over 150+ years, so you can try to devise a better system and do it. Creation of self-sufficient communities is no easy process, and you will have to sacrifice yourself to better future generations if you so choose to do it.

Technological societies are too complex & too growth oriented & too dependent on financial leverage that there is no going back to a simpler time with less population. Sure, everything is going to collapse on some level someday because of a natural disaster or war or the latest GFC, etc.

So what! That IS the Human Condition... we're locked in... some few will escape "the apocalypse"... I'm certain a lot of the military & wealthy & powerful will get that opportunity to survive too. Maybe we will evolve before that happens, but who knows? :wink:

I'm all for alternative communes & perma-cultures & planned communities that can work in some micro/macro scales & co-exist with our dominant societies & economies. I hope several can succeed even on a nation state or international scale. Maybe one or more could be an example for improving what we have now?

 

[Gordo]

Another point that I'd like to make is that MOST RICH PEOPLE HELP THEMSELVES and only themselves.

If you are referring to business owners, I have a question for you? What is a guy who has taken the risk, invested $5M in a business and employs 100 skilled, hard working individuals like yourself worth? Is he worth 10X what he pays you, 1000X what he pays you, 1% of his annual payroll, or what?

On a much smaller scale, I once had 3 crews of 3 men each, working for me. I took 10% of gross income, for running a business with $500,000 of my equipment and paid the rest to the men. To begin with, each crew grossed @ $25,000 every 2 weeks, so a quick calculation shows you my gross income was $15,000 per month, @$10,000 net. Because of increasing regulations, the season became shorter and the gross income dropped to $20,000 per crew. The men immediately complained to me, demanding a greater share of the income. I refused, but as the crews were totally independent, I offered to sell the equipment to them, so each crew could have an independent business. 2 crews bought the businesses and I managed to sell the third business to a buyer of our product, which kept the crew as employees. I carefully explained that it took 3 crews production to make the business work well. The 2 independent crews quickly found they could not manage the business and sold out. The employees of the new company, earned far less than when they worked for me. I simply started a new business in another field, with a new partner. Put 95% of my money into investments, spent 5% on new equipment, along with my partner's 5%, and earned more, with far less effort and 9 fewer geniuses to babysit. My guys were so smart, they knew they were each worth far more than I was. After all, they were doing all the real work. I was just a parasite. According to them, a % is an unfair way of compensating the guy who took all the risk, invested all the money, built all the equipment, transported the product, marketed the product, collected all the receivables and did all the accounting. Their thinking was so fuxed up, they thought of me as their employee and because there were 9 of them, felt they should collectively decide on what I was to be paid. Trade Union THINKING, at it's finest. Think about this the next time you believe you have some "worth." You are worth precisely what you are paid. If this is not true, quit and go find what you are worth somewhere else. This is what I have always done. The sooner you figure out the only way to receive what you are worth is to pay yourself, the better.

[/quote] A very few do extremely minor little things here and there to keep face. Give a man a fish type of thing.....Most of the help I've received when I really needed it was from poor people with good hearts. Poor people usually tip better than the rich in my experience....which is vast. Rich people go play golf and generally ignore the global and local consequences of their greed. People that have more than they need and can ever use is WRONG and GREEDY. They are running the show because people like you play into their system. [/quote]

While laying in a hammock in Mexico, I met a fellow in the next hammock who asked me if I was a "lucky guy?" We were both living in the back of pickup trucks with a canopy. We spent many days discussing our "luck", and became life long friends. After a few days of this banter, a fellow in the 3rd hammock, who had never said a word to us, pushed his hat back from over his eyes and said when you 2 assholes decide to go back to work, get in touch with me, I have a job for you. He began treating us to drinks and dinners and gifts for our wives. We tried to explain to him that we were unemployable. When we were home, we received a photo album of our time together, more gifts and invitations. I went back to doing my thing and my friend, who had quit the financial business, went to work part time in a hardware store, drove school bus part time, and opened a hotdog stand in the summer, when school was out. He had been traveling for over a year, until broke. He cut and delivered firewood in his spare time. After a few years, he built and opened a nice restaurant on the site of his hotdog stand, employing 20 people. Now we are both comfortably retired, I guess we qualify as just a couple of GREEDY guy in your eyes, even though we never had time to learn to golf?
My friend, quit looking out your ass, a good life is still to be had by working smart. Unless you are brain damage and confined to a mobility device, there is work to be done.

 

[wineboyrider]

Philistine wrote:
So glad to hear all that Gordo, totally accords with my Australian experience. Thankfully in Australia we have an aboriginal activist called Noel Pearson, the guy is a deadset legend, and understands the only way that he will emancipate his people, is to get them off the welfare handout, and being self reliant proud people. The policitics of aboriginal culture in Australia is some of the most nasty shit you will ever see (makes the Australian Union movement look like a bunch of pussies, and they regularly break peoples legs and have them fall under shipping containers). This guy Noel Pearson is just a godsend to the welfare of Aboriginal people, he really is the Martin Luthar King of Australia's indeginous folk. In my opinion he will single handedly deliver economic outcomes for his people that will surpass fifty years of throwing money wastefully at welfare. It's funny what you said Gordo about the Aussie consultants, I am fully aware of that "industry".

This so reminds me of Russell Means. Russell Means could be my President too, but for now it is Ron Paul.

 

[deVries]

This so reminds me of Russell Means. Russell Means could be my President too, but for now it is Ron Paul.

He apparently has beat throat cancer & is recovering. Hopefully, he can speak well again... he had a good voice & ideas. Alex Jones had him on his Internet/Radio show several times. Means sure as hell is a controversial figure within the Native American Indian Nations. It seems many of them don't welcome his leadership or something? :?

 

[wineboyrider]

This so reminds me of Russell Means. Russell Means could be my President too, but for now it is Ron Paul.

He apparently has beat throat cancer & is recovering. Hopefully, he can speak well again... he had a good voice & ideas. Alex Jones had him on his Internet/Radio show several times. Means sure as hell is a controversial figure within the Native American Indian Nations. It seems many of them don't welcome his leadership or something? :?

Because, he believes in "real" sovereignty and that means cutting the Indians off of the Federal teet. He is controversial among those that want to forever be slaves to the Federal government. A firm believer in the 10th amendment and the 14th amendment of course.

 

[deVries]

OT: Speaking of the 10th Amendment, I guess Obama-care will be won/lost based on the Commerce Clause, since the Supremes seem able to make the following type of decisions based on theory alone? ..."The theory was that the marijuana could enter the stream of interstate commerce, even if it clearly wasn't grown for that purpose and that was unlikely ever to happen (the same reasoning as in the Wickard v. Filburn decision)."

Most recently, the Commerce Clause was cited in the 2005 decision Gonzales v. Raich. In this case, a California woman sued the Drug Enforcement Administration after her medical marijuana crop was seized and destroyed by federal agents. Medical marijuana was explicitly made legal under California state law by Proposition 215; however, marijuana is prohibited at the federal level by the Controlled Substances Act. Even though the woman grew the marijuana strictly for her own consumption and never sold any, the Supreme Court stated that growing one's own marijuana affects the interstate market of marijuana. The theory was that the marijuana could enter the stream of interstate commerce, even if it clearly wasn't grown for that purpose and that was unlikely ever to happen (the same reasoning as in the Wickard v. Filburn decision). It therefore ruled that this practice may be regulated by the federal government under the authority of the Commerce Clause.

I realize there is no direct relationship here except that the Supremes make decisions based on Theory alone with the Commerce Clause, so maybe Obama-care will have some appeal based on a Theory alone proposition? Like everyone needs Health Insurance for the Common Good that can afford it, so X-Theory causes this to fall under the Commerce Clause & it can be mandated

I don't agree with this "logic" based on some unknown theoretical reasons, but I suspect the arguments will be based along these lines. Since the punishment is with fines if you don't buy but can afford it, then maybe this gets the Feds past the finish line? The poor will be exempt, so they won't be forcing or fining someone to buy that does not have the money for it.

 

[wineboyrider]

The "commerce clause" was written to facilitate trade between the states. It has been used in more modern times to usurp the 10th amendment and also "illegalize" many things that before were not even imaginable. The prohibition of alcohol was at least done constitutionally, but we see what a success that was. The income tax was partly passed to make up the lost income from booze taxes. So we see it's really all about the money now isn't it? The constitution has been perverted over the years I assure, but it is a great document if you respect it. Slavery was legal too remember (Dread vs Scott)

 

[mdd0127]

Another point that I'd like to make is that MOST RICH PEOPLE HELP THEMSELVES and only themselves.

If you are referring to business owners, I have a question for you? What is a guy who has taken the risk, invested $5M in a business and employs 100 skilled, hard working individuals like yourself worth? Is he worth 10X what he pays you, 1000X what he pays you, 1% of his annual payroll, or what?

On a much smaller scale, I once had 3 crews of 3 men each, working for me. I took 10% of gross income, for running a business with $500,000 of my equipment and paid the rest to the men. To begin with, each crew grossed @ $25,000 every 2 weeks, so a quick calculation shows you my gross income was $15,000 per month, @$10,000 net. Because of increasing regulations, the season became shorter and the gross income dropped to $20,000 per crew. The men immediately complained to me, demanding a greater share of the income. I refused, but as the crews were totally independent, I offered to sell the equipment to them, so each crew could have an independent business. 2 crews bought the businesses and I managed to sell the third business to a buyer of our product, which kept the crew as employees. I carefully explained that it took 3 crews production to make the business work well. The 2 independent crews quickly found they could not manage the business and sold out. The employees of the new company, earned far less than when they worked for me. I simply started a new business in another field, with a new partner. Put 95% of my money into investments, spent 5% on new equipment, along with my partner's 5%, and earned more, with far less effort and 9 fewer geniuses to babysit. My guys were so smart, they knew they were each worth far more than I was. After all, they were doing all the real work. I was just a parasite. According to them, a % is an unfair way of compensating the guy who took all the risk, invested all the money, built all the equipment, transported the product, marketed the product, collected all the receivables and did all the accounting. Their thinking was so fuxed up, they thought of me as their employee and because there were 9 of them, felt they should collectively decide on what I was to be paid. Trade Union THINKING, at it's finest. Think about this the next time you believe you have some "worth." You are worth precisely what you are paid. If this is not true, quit and go find what you are worth somewhere else. This is what I have always done. The sooner you figure out the only way to receive what you are worth is to pay yourself, the better.

A very few do extremely minor little things here and there to keep face. Give a man a fish type of thing.....Most of the help I've received when I really needed it was from poor people with good hearts. Poor people usually tip better than the rich in my experience....which is vast. Rich people go play golf and generally ignore the global and local consequences of their greed. People that have more than they need and can ever use is WRONG and GREEDY. They are running the show because people like you play into their system. [/quote]

While laying in a hammock in Mexico, I met a fellow in the next hammock who asked me if I was a "lucky guy?" We were both living in the back of pickup trucks with a canopy. We spent many days discussing our "luck", and became life long friends. After a few days of this banter, a fellow in the 3rd hammock, who had never said a word to us, pushed his hat back from over his eyes and said when you 2 assholes decide to go back to work, get in touch with me, I have a job for you. He began treating us to drinks and dinners and gifts for our wives. We tried to explain to him that we were unemployable. When we were home, we received a photo album of our time together, more gifts and invitations. I went back to doing my thing and my friend, who had quit the financial business, went to work part time in a hardware store, drove school bus part time, and opened a hotdog stand in the summer, when school was out. He had been traveling for over a year, until broke. He cut and delivered firewood in his spare time. After a few years, he built and opened a nice restaurant on the site of his hotdog stand, employing 20 people. Now we are both comfortably retired, I guess we qualify as just a couple of GREEDY guy in your eyes, even though we never had time to learn to golf?
My friend, quit looking out your ass, a good life is still to be had by working smart. Unless you are brain damage and confined to a mobility device, there is work to be done. [/quote]

Please don't be offended. You did the best you could with what you were taught and I'm sure you're a good guy at heart. But..... since you got a loan, making the bankers richer and everyone else's hard EARNED money worth less, overall, you made things worse. You made a business just to make a business, not to bring anything really positive to the world, and in doing so, you made things worse for everyone else. The guys you hired could have been doing their own thing from the start if they wanted to and you flat out admitted they were the ones doing all of the hard work. It sounds like the whole thing was a big waste of money, resources, time, and patience. If you had EARNED the money to build and buy the equipment and WORKED in the field with them, I'm sure that they would have been much more appreciative of the profit/pay structure.

Creating businesses that really don't do anything worthwhile for the world, just so you can sit there, make phone calls, and make way more than the people actually doing the work is wrong. All in the name of creation of "jobs".....or some form of slavery.....whatever you want to call it. As long as those guys were working for you, they weren't able to work for themselves, and if someone's not able to work for themselves, they shouldn't be here. So to answer your question about what a guy's worth.....he's worth what he EARNS DOING IMPORTANT, POSITIVE THINGS FOR THE WORLD. Making phone calls, giving orders and giving thieving crooks more business by getting loans and relying upon "investments"(gambling with people's lives and businesses) to finance it all isn't very important.....


To the person that asked about loans helping to save someone's life. I have a pretty crazy opinion on that. I think Darwin laid it out pretty well and getting loans, using insurance, and using welfare to "save" people back into their life of financial slavery goes totally against the natural order of things. If you're hurt so bad or so sick that your family and or community can't help you, you are supposed to be dead.....in nature's eyes that is. But you ask, what about human compassion???? Well, that's what your family, friends, and community (including the doctors and hospital board members) are there for. If they don't want to help you for some reason and you have to rely on a bank, insurance, or other parasitic social system to save your life, you probably shouldn't be here.

 

[Tom Tom]

Like most topics/threads here they just get too long to follow.

So, I'll add more to it! Below is a college commencement speech that can be applied to everyone.

http://www.boortz.com/news/news/local-education/commencement-speech/nCG7H/

Its a rather long speech, but this passage sums it up nicely:

"You know the mantra: You have the right to a job. The right to a place to live. The right to a living wage. The right to health care. The right to an education. You probably even have your own pet right - the right to a Beemer, for instance, or the right to have someone else provide for that child you plan on downloading in a year or so.

Forget it. Forget those rights! I'll tell you what your rights are! You have a right to live free, and you have a right to whatever wealth you are able to produce with your labor. You'll be disappointed to learn that you have no right to any portion of the life or labor of another. "

 

[wineboyrider]

TomTom that's so libertarian. I LIKE IT!

 

[ninjamik]

So I think the baker, banker scenario is a little misleading there..it may be the correct model if you are talking about money deposited in cash, so i suppose yes the $10,000 you put in as cash. or even more substantial gold! leaves the bank access to 9000 of usable funds (in the stated 10% fraction model). so i see your logic that it 'could' loan out 9000 dollars, leaving a scenario where yes if you wanted your ten grand the bank only has 10% of it! but also in that model (this is where the slight of hand happens just like legalese isn't English when you think it is! nearly everything a policeman or a lawyer or judge ever said to you will have had a second meaning that could be even the opposite of the original word re-defined in Blacks law dictionary!) sorry i digress!...in that model the bank could also keep the 9,000 as a reserve. this would then allow it if someone else came for a loan of $90,000 for a house, to be able to make this loan under the rules of the 10% stated reserve rules. remember the person has deposited an IOU promissory note that he will pay the $90k which is backed up by the deeds to his house that the bank can keep & sell the property from under him if he misses a payment or two!!..a good example of how it works is this. not my own words but it explains the system very well and is put in equally demeaning "layman's Terms" in a childlike simple way!..interestingly seeing as we are discussing candle sticks, the star of the story is called Jack, Jills in there too but that's a different bedtime story!... I have visibly edited it a little to fit our scenario and to explain a little better.

The mechanics of modern banking are opaque, misunderstood and arguably dishonest. Modern fiat money, the dollar, euro, yen etc are all based on debt. (BTW FIAT means.. let it be so!.. in latin! Alakazamm! Abracadabra! For every dollar in existence, there is somewhere an IOU for the same amount. (its beyond that. total USA debt is $15.26 Trillion. USA G.D.P $14.28 Trillion, so even at 100% tax for everyone!! the debt could not be paid in a year.
then you would have the next years debt because at 100% tax No one would have any money! so would have to borrow 100% to live. leaving the debt the same or worse including interest...ad infinitum. )

The way it works is best illustrated with an example of a typical mortgage.

Imagine Jack wants to by Jill’s house for $100,000 and he has no money to buy it so he goes to his local bank and asks for a mortgage which is approved. The bank will ask Jack for a promissory note, an IOU, for the $100,000 and once he signs it, they open an account in which they create from nothing. (actually they would need $10,000 in reserve to do this but they can get that of someone else!) $100,000 for Jack in exchange for his IOU. That $100,000 is a liability for the bank, their asset is the IOU. The bank just ‘created’ $100,000 which is backed by the good faith of Jack to pay it back as well as the deed to the house he bought. Now the bank loans that money to Jack, with compound interest. The interest is the fee the bank charges for monetizing the debt. Jill would not have wanted an IOU from Jack for the 100K, so the bank did him the service of converting his IOU into dollars, and for this service they charge him interest. As Jack pays down his mortgage principal, the value of the IOU will be drawn down as well, until all the money ‘created’ is destroyed, and the IOU is worthless.


The money never existed before Jack signed his IOU. It was created entirely and only as an expression of his promissory note. All car loans, student loans and personal loans are created in this way, and it is the exclusive right of banks and the Fed to create money except for coinage which is handled by the Federal Government. Banks are restricted as to how much money they can create by the amount they have on reserve with the Fed. The formula is complex, but, for simplicities sake, it is around 10 times as much as they have on reserve, (actually more). If the bank has 1 million dollars on reserve with the Fed, for which they are now paid interest, they can create and loan out about 10 million dollars. Banks are paid for the privilege of creating and leasing money. This is our modern, fractional reserve banking system.

How does this differ from how other things that are borrowed or leased? When a house is leased, the owner must buy the house, then rent it, forfeiting his capital in exchange for an asset, the house. The typical return on residential real estate is about 5%, anything with a return of 10% would be snapped up in an instant. So how much do banks make when they loan their ‘created’ money out? Let’s assume Jack has been a good boy, and gets a fixed rate loan of 5% on his $100,000 mortgage for a period of 10 years. The bank is obligated to leave $10,000 in reserve, or 10% of the amount loaned out, but they do not give up the money, and they are now paid interest on it, so the bank now has no borrowing cost, only an opportunity cost. The return on the bank’s $10,000 is Jack’s compound interest payments of 5% on $100,000, or $5,000, a neat 50% return on their money. As he pays off the principal, the banks also frees up the corresponding amount in reserves, so the margin stays the same. On a 20% interest credit card with an outstanding balance of $10,000, the bank is holding $1,000 in reserve on which it is making 200% a year. Of course the bank has salaries to pay, rent, administration fees, marketing etc. but it is, nonetheless, a very lucrative business model.

What is special about banks that allows them such profitability? First, what is money? Money is two things: a store of wealth, and a means of exchange. Many would define money as human labor. Let’s say Jack is a truck driver and makes $50,000 a year, (very close to median US household income). Jack has recently married, bought a house and become a good boy and doesn’t pitter his money away anymore on wine and women, he now saves $1,000 every month, about one week's work for Jack and the average American family (before taxes). When he asks his bank how much they will pay him on his saving account, they say 1%. This seems legitimate to Jack, since they loaned him $100,000 at 5%. In fact, it seems like a very low margin to him as he assumes that the banks are loaning the money that other people like Jack have on deposit. Banks do not loan out deposits, deposits are used for reserves.

For Jack to earn $100,000 would take him two years of driving a truck, for which he would be paid by a bank a few thousand dollars in interest a year. For a bank, however, $100,000 is created digitally in milliseconds, and they are paid $5,000 a year in interest and if the borrower defaults, the bank will foreclose on the house with the full force of the law. Jack drove a truck for 2 years to make 100k, it is a store of value of his work, but what did the bank do in exchange for the interest on the 100k they loaned Jack?

Money is human labor transferred to a store of value, like dollars, euros, gold or silver. For example, when someone pays $30 for a kilo of fish, they are not paying for the fish in the ocean, they are paying for it on their plate. The difference between a happy fish swimming in the deep blue sea and a grilled halibut glistening before you is human effort. All other businesses that want to get a return on an asset must first buy the asset with money earned through work. This is not the case for banks. They earn interest on something they don't create.

In fact, a Minnesota Judge, Martin V. Mahoney, and a jury threw out a foreclosure on defendant Jerome Daly for just that reason. Daly argued that the there was no consideration in the contract between himself and the First National Bank of Montgomery. Consideration means both parties must give up something for there to be a contract. For example, if Jack offers to paint Jill’s apartment for free, there is no contract between them. If Jack bails on his offer to paint, Jill cannot sue him. Judge Mahoney ruled the bank gave up nothing in the contract. They created the money out of thin air hence they did not commit anything to the contract; there was no consideration and the bank could not foreclose.!!!...

For everyone except banks, money is an expression of human labor, creativity, or even luck. But for banks, money is something they simply 'create' in exchange for IOU's. What Jack works ten years to pay back should not have the same value as what the bank created in the blink of an eye. They are two different things, yet they are treated as one... I will continue myself from here.

Also..everyone does forget the main point! the capstone of the pyramid in the fractional system, the Central Bank! in your case the "Federal" Reserve Bank, which correctly was pointed out earlier is A PRIVATE COMPANY WITH SHAREHOLDERS!! the main observation of money as debt to a criminal cabal of "Banksters" that do get the right of magick! to create money from nothing and" lend" the government/ you it at interest, The bank was signed into "power" by the signing of the federal reserve act in 1913 on jekyll Island by president Woodrow Wilson. At ransom because America was bankrupt by J.P MORGAN, Goldman Sachs, Kune & Loeb, Lehman Brothers, The Schiffs and Rothschild Banking Dynasties...at night without a whisper to congress or the public!

Ever wonder what Inflation is? why money is worth way less now than it used to be? it's the fact every dollar printed owes say 20% to the "FED" (a group of banks not the government) in interest. how is this paid back when every dollar printed to pay it back owes another 20% Ad Infinitum...So how could your government pay them back? ever wonder what your income tax is!? well that's a way of paying the convenient 20% figure with labour of the populace! you'd think it was going to the government to pay for admin and infrastructure, but they got plenty of other taxes for that!! roads, tobacco, alcohol the list is endless..the IRS is another illegal company, not even based in the USA, it is actually based in Puerto Rico and has no authority in the separate states of America. it is provable and has been so in court that there is No Law that can Order you to pay income tax under the constitution.(you need to be very clever and use the correct terms to argue this!) it is just a set of private collection thugs with government backing to pay back the interest on the money the "FED" "loaned" the government who smash your door in if you don't pay and can even get you in prison but Unlawfully. Learn the difference of the two terms... illegal means just breaking a commercial law (a statute) not wearing your seat belt, speeding etc -Unlawful means you have broken the Law of the land that everyone agreed upon in the constitution and bill of rights...broken someones right to freedom - kidnapping!) broken someones right to life- Murder/Homicide) etc, there is a big difference...it is illegal not to pay your forced upon you income tax...a rule break) but it is unlawful for the IRS to force you to pay it!..a breach of the bill of rights and the Constitution...a much bigger issue!! good look arguing the case though!! as like i said all court proceedings and legal letters are in legalese, a totally separate language so you'd better get studying your Blacks Dictionary!

there have only ever been two presidents that tried to free the people from the clutches of the bankers and their Fiat Fractional Tyranny and there

Also don't forget the fact that the money system starts off from the Unlawful..(but perfectly legal in the governments eyes!..now we know the proper meaning of the terms) "FED" as lets say a 10 dollar reserve loan. This can then be used by the bank to lend out $100 dollars because it only needs 10% in holding of a loan it makes...this is how the system inflates so that only 1% of money is actually printed cash! and even that is only a promise to pay?? not a backing of an amount of gold!! i ask you promise to pay what?? all the rest is just numbers in computers...mainly created by algorithms that react millions of times a second using programed rules but i presume we may get into the rigged, high tech, high risk for the punters,( not the house! the people who set the gold price and can sway markets with ease and insider trading covered by such entities as the Bank of England Nominees and swiss banks) ...gambling casino, that is Derivatives and CDswaps at a later date. that stuff just gets funny how stupid the whole system is!!

finally on the subject of loans! and interest the new rules should be seeing as the american "tax" payer is owed by the Banks 8.5 TRILLION! dollars, well the private "FED" put in 5.5Trillion of there own money you just have to pay the interest! and the government/your $3Trillion thats $3.5ish Frockin TRILLION Dollars. every time you go in to the bank to get a loan! you still have to pay it back but it is at - thats negative 1% interest so they actually have to pay you back a little for creating the money and bailing them out!!!! HAHA....

This is the reason we are in such a Frockin Mess and it is only getting worse!!

just as a final thought! i think (objectively as an Englishman viewing intently from afar) that Voting for Ron Paul is actually the only chance you guys have of saving yourselves from total financial collapse leading to god knows where you Gun crazy madmen! He is the only politician, never mind presidential candidate I have ever seen that has even mentioned that the Federal Reserve is a Private institution not owned by the people of the USA but loaned to them by a group of "Banksters" never mind the fact he wants it Auditing! (because its private and wont show its accounts to the government) and wants it eventually dismembered!..Also he wants the Constitution Re-Instating as most of it has been torn up by the politicians paid for by the Bankers and military industrial complex President Eisenhower warned of in his speech!....It is the only way for the glimmer of hope that was for a flighting moment! "the land of the free and home of the Brave" to have rights you actually have to fight for them or they are not rights at all they are privileges. given to you by owners!..

It was to this Home of the free people of my country and others in europe set sail for all those years ago escape the tyrannical pyramidal system of control that had been created by the Rothschilds and Black nobility of Europe and spread round the word as the British Empire! with such men as Cecil Rhodes of The Scholarship fame (and the fact Zimbabwe used to be Rhodesia!) who actually paid for the establishment of the Council on Foreign Relations! who control all three of the other presidential candidates in the election as they are members! even better is the CFR want America dissolved and part of the NAFTA/North American Union of Mexico, Canada, and USA so see the constitution as a barrier to progress!!! bye bye! USA if they get in..next stop one world government to rule the superstates and China Base Commercial/democrtaic-quasi capitalist Communism! and one baby for all!....don't like it! off to the camps! or even better switch yer chip off/cancel yer credit as there will be no cash soon! its illegal/ not Unlawful (if we remember to have more than £1000 here in uk in cash with no reciept and in the US if you buy something with 10,000 dollars cash the FBI is supposed to be notified!!
no one accepts cash anymore! you used to get discount for it! ha..

so please America, as the leaders of the world please do something to take back that great country that was founded in response to the wicked evil way My Once "Great Country" began ruling the world all those years ago!
those interests that ran "the empire the sun never set on" funded by killing Raping and Drugging the World made sure of just that! they kept there money going through trusts, Banks and inheritance...they have constantly pecked and slithered their way into running the worlds first Super Power through their vice grip hold over banking investments politics and war!..it was a different bank that assassinated Abe Lincoln for printing debt free government money called greenbacks than the one that shot JFK for saying he was about to do the very same thing. different Bank Name different times but same Family lines and Financial interests owned both Banks. they've been at it for years!.... the constitution was written to be a masterpiece in political freedom but it cannot protect anyone if you let it be taken to pieces bit by bit...I truly believe Ron Paul is the answer to starting to put this world right again...bring all troops home...stop spending money on shit!!...stop borrowing till you cant borrow any more...he has addressed all these issues. something the CFR scum do not...they are puppets all working for the same master working to destroy your country and the rest of the world for financial gains and brief massive power..


when Benjamin Franklin Actually signed the Constitution and created the USA when asked the question! well what have ye wrought, a Republic or a Monarchy....he replied! A Republic!...if ye can Keep It!

please America! Wake Up!...educate yourself about the propaganda puppet show that is the media! and the paradigm Control Matrix that has been created at your expense to keep you from realising the truth that we have owners and are not free! it is all an Illusion so we do not revolt!!

If you read this far im very impressed and ask you vote Ron Paul...well as an advocate of freedom i ask you to vote whoever you choose but believe if you study the facts and look into all the candidates I belive the truth will make you vote for him anyway.. The man has gone on about all this for 30 years and never changed his tune! I mean he could be the ultimate planted deceiver or false prophet or even the antichrist! but again That is another Story! ;P hehe

 

[Gordo]

Imagine Jack wants to by Jill’s house for $100,000 and he has no money to buy it so he goes to his local bank and asks for a mortgage which is approved.

I saw Jill take $100,000 worth of physical gold from the teller and put it in her safety deposit box in another bank. Where did that come from? How did the bank create that out of thin air?

 

[ninjamik]

No you couldn't have seen Jill take any physical gold... Banks never pay out in gold, they don't have any! only ever promise notes. and i ask again promise to pay what??
they may have given her the $100,000 that was created by Jack promising to pay them back? which they only needed $10.000 which never gets touched in the vault to do!.
they can give her this easily as it was created by them when jack promised to pay them extra for paying her for his house with his money!!! she then deposits this in her account! simples!
it wont even need to be in notes, they just simply initiate the transaction then pass on the debt, with no initial input. like the judge ruled in an american court!!
No gold involved ever! cos like i said they aint got any!!

 

[ninjamik]

like I said! FIAT!!! let it be so! alakazzam n piff poff pooff!!

all done without one outlay for the bank! whatever % interest on a 100K house transaction. all they have to do is pay a teller! to press the button and wait for either the money back of jack or to collect his house if he cant pay! all the while having never touched a penny of their own money!! just promises! Nice scam boys, no wonder your so rich n were so poor! ;P

its a lot like the way the criminal world especially the drugs world works if you can find a dealer to Tick/Lay you on a large amount (promise to pay) then sell that amount on instantly for a profit then you have just performed the same trick, you have made mass profit of a double transaction with no outlay yourself! you just charged for being the privileged guy that can get drugs gratis or at least on a promise to pay...thats usually why drug lord is a very high paying job (although illegal) but it still doesn't pay as good as banking!!!

not that i have anything to do with that!! just its the only example i can think of at this moment to explain similar circumstances.

 

[Gordo]

No you couldn't have seen Jill take any physical gold... Banks never pay out in gold, they don't have any! only ever promise notes. and i ask again promise to pay what??
they may have given her the $100,000 that was created by Jack promising to pay them back? which they only needed $10.000 which never gets touched in the vault to do!.
they can give her this easily as it was created by them when jack promised to pay them extra for paying her for his house with his money!!! she then deposits this in her account! simples!
it wont even need to be in notes, they just simply initiate the transaction then pass on the debt, with no initial input. like the judge ruled in an american court!!
No gold involved ever! cos like i said they aint got any!!

Absolutely untrue. We have gold available at the market price in bars and coin every day of the week. Do you want an order form?

 

[deVries]

To the person that asked about loans helping to save someone's life. I have a pretty crazy opinion on that. I think Darwin laid it out pretty well and getting loans, using insurance, and using welfare to "save" people back into their life of financial slavery goes totally against the natural order of things. If you're hurt so bad or so sick that your family and or community can't help you, you are supposed to be dead.....in nature's eyes that is. But you ask, what about human compassion???? Well, that's what your family, friends, and community (including the doctors and hospital board members) are there for. If they don't want to help you for some reason and you have to rely on a bank, insurance, or other parasitic social system to save your life, you probably shouldn't be here.

What about interest free loans? What about the Stock Market & investment in bonds or stocks?

What is the solution to transfer easily some symbolic form of work-exchange beyond bartering or coins? How would we make the most efficient market of work-exchange?

The Black Box OTC derivatives market was 595 Trillion dollars ... That 595 Trillion market in 2007 is many times the size of the entire economies of the world... it is still unregulated... new rules are being written & are open for public comment now... I think this Black Box Free Market without any rules or regulation Fracked the entire world to kingdom come... so called Free Market Philosophies based on the Greenspans' of the world are insane & do NOT work. Why?

Because criminals & fraud are everywhere. That's why we have prisons & rule of law to protect us, but we just don't understand the most dangerous criminals are highly attractive & intelligent & can seduce you into their game plan & destroy you personally and/or the world at large. Sociopaths are attracted to power, money, and politics. Alan Greenspan's hero Ayn Rand blinded him inside an "ideology religion" that left him in denial of this fact of life. Think I'm wrong? Every one of you that believes otherwise must see this program below, and you also need to read the book "The Sociopath Next Door" to begin to understand the danger we are all in from this type of dangerous personality. It's in the torrents as a .pdf or audiobook.

I suggest everyone needs to seriously review this PBS special... then come back & post why it's wrong...

The Warning

If you want the torrent: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:BF91DCB162760DFC6F5E5CC9C67871286F882BAC

In The Warning, veteran FRONTLINE producer Michael Kirk unearths the hidden history of the nation's worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. At the center of it all he finds Brooksley Born, who speaks for the first time on television about her failed campaign to regulate the secretive, multitrillion-dollar derivatives market whose crash helped trigger the financial collapse in the fall of 2008.

"I didn't know Brooksley Born," says former SEC Chairman Arthur Levitt, a member of President Clinton's powerful Working Group on Financial Markets. "I was told that she was irascible, difficult, stubborn, unreasonable." Levitt explains how the other principals of the Working Group -- former Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan and former Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin -- convinced him that Born's attempt to regulate the risky derivatives market could lead to financial turmoil, a conclusion he now believes was "clearly a mistake."

Born's battle behind closed doors was epic, Kirk finds. The members of the President's Working Group vehemently opposed regulation -- especially when proposed by a Washington outsider like Born.

"I walk into Brooksley's office one day; the blood has drained from her face," says Michael Greenberger, a former top official at the CFTC who worked closely with Born. "She's hanging up the telephone; she says to me: 'That was [former Assistant Treasury Secretary] Larry Summers. He says, "You're going to cause the worst financial crisis since the end of World War II."... [He says he has] 13 bankers in his office who informed him of this. Stop, right away. No more.'"

Greenspan, Rubin and Summers ultimately prevailed on Congress to stop Born and limit future regulation of derivatives. "Born faced a formidable struggle pushing for regulation at a time when the stock market was booming," Kirk says. "Alan Greenspan was the maestro, and both parties in Washington were united in a belief that the markets would take care of themselves."

Now, with many of the same men who shut down Born in key positions in the Obama administration, The Warning reveals the complicated politics that led to this crisis and what it may say about current attempts to prevent the next one.

"It'll happen again if we don't take the appropriate steps," Born warns. "There will be significant financial downturns and disasters attributed to this regulatory gap over and over until we learn from experience."

 

[ninjamik]

of course you do... for sale!! but you will never back any promissory notes with it! just a promise!! i ask for a 3rd time a promise to pay what?
if all promises were collected at once the whole pack of cards comes tumbling down!..that's the difference between reserve banking backed by gold and FIAT let it be so magick!
gold standard was dropped in 1971 so no gold for poor jill since then.. told you it must have been your eyes playing tricks on you! actually all federal reserve (remember private company) gold was handed over to us treasury in 1934 so although a brief return to a sort of gold/dollar standard after world war 2 really the "fed" had issued gold certificates! not made of gold! obviously this isn't willy wonka, just more golden promises! then they issue federal reserve promises!...bloody hell if you got the choice of having not to trust anyone's promise, pretty much the top of the list after your general rapists and murderers would be a banker!! hehe

sorry! I presume seeing as you said we have gold for sale I presume you work at a bank! if this is correct i truly don't mean to offend you! i was just making a quite true statement about peoples opinions of bankers. there is a reason many thousands of people started to occupy wall street! it is the greed of a select few of the higher up that actually caused this it has been done many time before. they buy all the bankrupt stock of competitors at pennies in the pound/cents in dollar with our bailout money. and conglomerate into super entities.. don't tell me this isnt what happened it is clearly visible in the accumulation of wealth. they have got very rich while the rest of the world cant pay there rising all the time bills or get a less of them all the time job I mean, countries like italy greece ireland all developed! some of the larger economies of the world but bankrupt! absolutely Rupt by Banks! on the point of revolt or civil war nearly...look at the greek riots.
if you do work in a bank you are part of the problem but i don't blame you for wanting to make a living...especially a high paying easy one! I wont lump you in with the term! Bankster...by that i truly mean the owners of the banks and the corporate bosses....like the Chief exec of lehman bros, he walked out with 2.5billion HOW...his company was bankrupt and owing billions why was that not ceased from him.. but aig via a bit of goldman help bought him up under consultation with the fed...so he actually gets his profits? back out!!! hahahaha.
or actually the super giants! the invisible money! the rothschild dynasty the rockerfellers Jp morgan and such....the carnagie and ford foundations..the ones who are transacting over 30% of the worlds economy through off shore invisible private banks... and actually hold around 90% of it. like visa. who cannot be audited by any government or you must know the swift payment scheme that happens with any international bank transfer..who are they what country are they beholden to?? or like I said the bank of england Nominees, a totally private non disclosure buying group that has the ability to inside trade backing stock or a business deal on both sides totally anonymously!!

and then there is the biggest scam bank of them all, the imf and the world bank! a giant fed for the world! feed you with one hand but put economic conditions with the other to mainly make your economy work to the advantage of international corporatism owned by guess who?...No way its the "Banksters" Again!!

and dont even get me started on the road to fiat...you see we left the gold standard because apparently there was no longer enough to back the amount of money in circulation. because it was being inflated so much by banking tricks so was worth less so we had to move into Let it be so magick land! but we had actually left an even better standard where basically your precious metal was your money the silver standard! even if you didn't carry it round with you there was plenty enough to back all money in the system, especially in combination with gold. But problem is the people own all the silver, and keep it at home in their own safes, or at least some of it. this is no good for banking there needs to be a shortage of precious stuff that people need to use a service of collecting there gold from another bank of the same group at their destination instead of carrying it with them, because the banks own all the gold its much more expensive the ordinary man only really has silver...

did you know that the wizard of OZ is actually about the dismay about the loss of the silver standard!....in the book Dorothy's slippers are actually silver (hollywood covered this up and made them ruby) so in a strange world where an evil wicked witch (of the WEST) has terrorised the world, she even drugs the heroes with opium poppies just like the empire she represents, they follow a golden paved road, gold bullion yellow bricks to a mystical future city, where a man who doesn't actually know what he's doing "hides behind a curtain, using a smoke screen and light show to pretend hes all powerful. when his golden road didn't actually lead the way out of the strange and scary kand, and he couldnt fix the problems of the woodsman/engineers, of the tin man, farmers and field workers of the scarecrow etc its down to dorothy to get her self out of the nightmare..how...the answer was always there..tap her silver slippers together...in other words a return to the silver standard would fix the problems of financial conglomeration into the hands of a few that the gold standard caused. because who owned all the gold" The Banksters, the rothschild banking house still sets the international gold price from its office in the london stock exchange, Tavistock square? in the again private, sovereign state within a state,( like D,C) the city of london Inc.

so again no gold standard since 1971- jill is an unlucky girl, just promises again no bullion, so again i ask for just one final time, promise to pay what??

Bank of England (private company owned by rothschilds until 1979, nationalised then but still 3% secret shares kept (B.O.E Nominees) had gold too once, but again we just get "chief cashier" dunno what tribe he is!;P to promise to pay! all our gold got sold litterally by gordon brown. so we couldnt even back it if we really wanted too!! ha

Ps i mean no personal offense to you, Its just the world needs to wake up to the fact banking right back from europe has pretty much owned the world since the 1800s, it causes all the wars in the world for profit and is now trying to construct the final phase of ultimate control. a one world government. they have even addmited it themselves. just read the autobiographies of people like david rockerfeller..or the statement of Amschel Mayer Bauer(later- Rothschild the inventor of reserve banking, give me the power to issue a nations money supply and i care not what puppet you place upon the throne. for whomever controls the money supply controls the country... or his wife the mum of the 5 Rothschild brothers that set up the first international bank...this world would not know war if my boys did not wish it!!!

p.p.s well said deVries....you seem like a well informed guy...i was about to get on to that subject soon. derivatives ans stock put options are all basically like goin down to the bookies to put a bet on for you customer...so if it wins you get a share of the winnings but, you then put a bet that it will actually go down with the right odds to make you basically always profit..at the expense of your investor!! thats why investment banks with peoples cash shouldnt be also playing the stock market... and our Randian Utopia of a system that runs its self!!! hahahahahaha....

 

[mdd0127]

Also, to chop down another point. There are no such things as "zero percent" loans. The only people they would give those to would never have the need to apply for one. It's a scam to get people in the door, tell them they don't qualify, then string them up at 21%apr.

Thanks ninjamik for covering everything so thoroughly! Fiat = lies!

And the whole derivatives market is a complete scam. There's no common sense or honesty to it....period.

I have to quit reading this thread. It's making me want to clean house

Off to watch some Animals as Leaders videos and get reminded that there is some good happening in the world!

 

[Gordo]

mik,
You are a well written knowledgeable guy. Why do you mix, truth, with half-truths and total nonsense in a futile attempt to get your point across? Do you not realize that in a public forum you will run across those who recognize the difference? You remind me of the eco-nuts we quit supporting 40 years ago, when caught out, they declared the truth did not matter, as long as they got their point across.
Everyone in the entire world has the option to hold their wealth in physical gold. The fact that it is $1670 US today is proof that many have decided to do just that. Demand pressure is the sole reason for this increase of 24% in the past year. Only fools purchase paper gold, the same fools who hold paper money.
Jill has her $100,000 in physical gold (or any one of 1000's of other hard assets available) and your model bank business collapsed.

 

[Sunder]

*sigh* There's no helping some people.

Go on, hold physical gold. Just trade it for fiat for the shortest time possible to trade with the rest of society. Just pray real hard that we don't have another 79 to 82 period, where gold halved in value in 3 years... or worse, a 87 to 2000 period, where for more than a decade, gold went backwards 30% - in nominal terms, let alone real terms.

I'm no advocate for the American banking system. But some people will always want to blame the system for their own failures, and reality is just an inconvenience.

 

[nechaus]

*sigh* There's no helping some people.

Go on, hold physical gold. Just trade it for fiat for the shortest time possible to trade with the rest of society. Just pray real hard that we don't have another 79 to 82 period, where gold halved in value in 3 years... or worse, a 87 to 2000 period, where for more than a decade, gold went backwards 30% - in nominal terms, let alone real terms.

I'm no advocate for the American banking system. But some people will always want to blame the system for their own failures, and reality is just an inconvenience.

I agree with a lot of things you say, but disagree with a lot to.

The system simply does not work for everyone, and this thread is proof. Because of this, that is the perfect reason for a change.
I think everyone should be equal. And that is it! Simple. Who can complain then?
The system should be based on equality. We are still living in the times of kings, queens and slavery and money is the thing that controls everyone.
Why do so many people get jobs they hate? because of money..
I have a friend who works in realestate, crappy job if you ask me, He hates it, but he will never change because of the huge amount he earns.
His going to live his life doing something he hates because of money. Yes i know his choice, but if you take money from the world, what would happen to him then? I can tell you know, he would be building beautiful houses with his bare hands. Build them just for the hell of it.

Can you imagine the human potential if Everyone was doing something they loved not because they have to but because they truly enjoyed it.. Not everyone is going to be doing the same thing because everyone is different and has different interests.

We would go forward instead of circles

 

[Sunder]

Just because a system isn't working for some, doesn't mean that there is a conspiracy behind it to control the masses though.

If you want, learn to play the system and get rich - or get self sufficient and do something you love. If you want, go on the dole, share a house with 6 others and surf every day. If you want, you can complain that the system is unfair. They're your options, and you're well entitled to them - at least under capitalism. Think you had that freedom under any other form of economics or government?

However, just because you feel you need to work a job you don't love, doesn't mean you are being "oppressed by the man". Life. Is. Hard. We don't need to delude ourselves that it should be easy, if only we could get "the man" out of our way.

I agree with you that the system is not ideal, but to paraphrase Winston Churchill capitalism "is the worst form of government (economy) except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time". You said that everyone should be equal - tell me, how did communism work out, earlier last century? Are those people happier than the capitalistic west? I won't comment on wealth. Wealth has little to do with happiness. Were they happy in their equal poverty? Did they have better bonds with their peers and better families? Lower mental health problems, use of alcohol and other drugs? Can you honestly say yes?

If people want to protest the fallacies of capitalism, go for it. If they want to peacefully and legally change the system, go for it. But to change the course of something, you need to understand it... Let me ask you a hypothetical. If you wanted to change the direction of a car, how would you approach it? Would you stand in front of it, hoping it would swerve, or would you learn how to control the car and do that? Sure, if you're lucky, you can make a car change direction by standing in front of it, but I'm putting the odds on the car.

Those that want to change capitalism, yet cannot even grasp the basic fundamentals of how our system works, are putting themselves in front of a 6 billion person Juggernaut, hoping it will swerve for them. They are the person who carelessly stepped out from a kerb once, saw a car swerve to miss them, and now think this is how you direct a car. These are people who are under the delusion that retail banks can just issue more money in the form of loans out of thin air - despite the fact that every day we have news articles that state the banks are finding it more expensive to fund their lending - or are raising their deposit rates to fund lending - or that from time to time, banks like Lehman's fail. How can anyone logically reconcile that contradiction? That banks can make money out of thin air, but still go bust?

And no, if anyone "explains" it to me, I'm not going to bother responding - I already have in the first five pages of this thread.