fractional reserve

[Gordo]

Come on Sunder. The only reason the banks went bust is they forgot how to issue paper gold certificates when they were stopped from issuing loans out of thin air. They were making so much money on credit default swaps and ninja loans they closed down the gold certificate business years ago. This is what got them in trouble. If they had of stuck to this good solid legal scams they would have never gone broke. After all gold certificates can be levered 100:1 much better than the 10:1 limit on consumer loans and even this ratio has never been checked.

 

[nechaus]

I have read all the pages of this thread, took me bloody ages.

I believe the problem is capitalism. As long as people have the goal of being on the top, that is the problem. and as long as this type system is in place there will be those type of people, that is the problem. So basically there will always be that huge gap with rich and poor.

what can i do ? not sure just keep on going working my ass off and enjoy my fitness and ebikes, but i don't want to get into politics as a profession seems like the only way i could change things . Im lucky I own a house at a young age and have a good job. but i feel sorry for people living on the streets, they cannot even get land to make their own house.

Perhaps they should split the world again, people who want capitalism can live on the left, people that don't can live on the right.
I don't know i don't have the answers, i just know this is less than ideal for most of the population.

If i had 1 billion dollars, i would go buy an island and build sustainable housing that provides food water and electricity, let anyone who has been living on the streets live on it.

 

[Gordo]

If i had 1 billion dollars, i would go buy an island and build sustainable housing that provides food water and electricity, let anyone who has been living on the streets live on it.

Your money would be better spent on educational scholarships for people who come out of high school with 85%+. At least you would have a large group of people smarter than you and I who would understand the system and possibly improve it.

 

[Sunder]

Perhaps they should split the world again, people who want capitalism can live on the left, people that don't can live on the right.
I don't know i don't have the answers, i just know this is less than ideal for most of the population.

If i had 1 billion dollars, i would go buy an island and build sustainable housing that provides food water and electricity, let anyone who has been living on the streets live on it.

The problem with unqualified equality, is that instead of everyone striving to be at the top, everyone will strive to be at the bottom in the sense that they will take the path of maximum comfort and minimum effort, not make trade offs as they do now.

Sure, you will get the odd person who will study medicine for the love of people - or professional curiosity, but will you have enough doctors? Who will service your sustainable houses? people from the other side of the world? Although its often misquoted Gordon Gecko had a point - " Greed
clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. " Greed means people work hard, better themselves, betters humanity. For want of more food, hunters and gatherers became farmers. For want of a better life, people researched, innovated and enterpreneured. Without greed, we would still be in caves. Without greed, we'd be back there in a few generations.

Greed is not a problem - senseless, meaningless, selfish greed is a problem.

Oh, and by the way? If you're on the dole, you're in the top 5% of the world's earners. On the minimum wage? Top 2%. On the median wage? Top 0.5%. No, capitalism hasn't worked for all, but if you're saying it hasn't worked for you, then I think your perspective is skewed.

 

[Philistine]

I love your work Sunder, I don't think I have seen you post a single thing on this forum that I disagree with.

I just posted this on the book thread I started, but I actually think it is relevant to this thread as well. I am halfway through this book at the moment, and it is awesome. I highly recommend everybody interested in the topics covered in this thread read it. It is called "Thinking, Fast and Slow". THis is a review that appeared in this weekends Australian.

NUDGED TOWARDS BETTER THINKING

THIS book should be required reading this summer. Not because it is entertaining or a mere diversion but because it is a subtle and beautifully scientific guide for the perplexed. If you see yourself as a citizen in a democratic polity, read Thinking, Fast and Slow. Self-indulgent cynics and self-important ideologues probably won't read it, but they are most in need of what it has to teach. Do yourself a favour, whoever you are: buy this book and read it quietly and thoughtfully, absorbing its insights.

Daniel Kahneman was awarded the Nobel Prize in Economic Sciences in 2002 for his work on prospect theory. To understand what this is, how Kahneman got into thinking about it and what his key insights were (in collaboration with his long-time research partner Amos Tversky), go straight to chapter 26, Prospect Theory. It's a fascinating excursion into clear thinking all on its own. Prospect theory is about gambling, risk-taking and expected returns. It's a body of theory with considerable practical relevance to the king-sized mess welfare economics and financial markets got themselves into by the late 2000s.

Kahneman re-examined the fundamentals of utility theory, articulated by Daniel Bernoulli, almost 300 years ago. He did this long before the extravagant follies of the past decade or two came close to wrecking economies from California to Greece.

Utility theory lies at the foundation of modern economics. There is a rather urgent need right now to understand what has gone so awfully wrong in so many economies. Falling back on Marxism or some kind of self-satisfied ideological cliche does not amount to understanding. Kahneman confers considerable understanding. That's why he deserved his Nobel Prize.

Thinking, Fast and Slow has five parts: Two Systems; Heuristics and Biases; Overconfidence; Choices; and Two Selves. It also contains, as appendixes, two of the classic papers for which Kahneman won his Nobel: Judgment under Uncertainty and Choices, Values and Frames.

Part I sets cognitive science in an accessible of reference that acts as a disciplined corrective to a good deal of pop psychology and a lucid introduction to the theoretical work in the following four parts of the book.

Kahneman suggests we think of our brain -- our "machine" for making judgments -- as consisting of two basic systems, which he calls System 1 and System 2. He describes the characteristics of each and explains how their faults and standard ways of interacting result in many kinds of error, bias and illusion -- universally and predictably, not in merely unusual or idiosyncratic cases.

System 1 is the intuitive, unconscious, fast reaction part of the brain. It is emotional, holistic and instinctual. It is, as he expresses it, "a machine for jumping to conclusions".

In certain circumstances and often in everyday life, its functions are reliable, rapid and even remarkable. But when it comes to matters that require complex, abstract thinking it is in deep trouble. System 2 is better equipped -- if trained and switched on -- to handle such matters. The problem with System 2 is that it is lazy and highly inclined to rationalise rather than critically examine the intuitive judgments of System 1.

In Parts II, III and IV of the book, drawing on the work of many psychologists and cognitive scientists, Kahneman offers a fascinating dissection of the brain of homo sapiens. The chapters include The Law of Small Numbers, Anchors, The Science of Availability, Availability, Emotion and Risk, Causes Trump Statistics, Intuitions vs Formulas, Risk Policies and Frames and Reality. At every point Kahneman exhibits a demeanour at once keenly curious, meticulously scientific and utterly unpretentious.

The implications of what he imparts are enormous and need to be digested by our education institutions (not least all business administration courses), our public policy systems and our methods for public debate.

An indication of the ways in which such insights can be applied was offered several years ago, in Richard Thaler and Cass Sunstein's Nudge: Improving Decisions About Health, Wealth and Happiness. Originally completed in 2007, it was reissued in 2008 with a postscript titled The Financial Crisis of 2008. The authors drew attention to the alarming reality that almost no economists or financial analysts had foreseen the crisis, or issued public warnings as it approached. They praised the behavioural economist Robert Shiller for having done so.

Shiller's warning in 2005 had been that "social contagion" was creating a housing market bubble that inevitably would burst. Shiller's books, Irrational Exuberance (2000), and The New Financial Order: Risk in the 21st Century (2003), are recommended. Thaler and Sunstein argue that sound public policy, informed by the insights of cognitive science and behavioural economics, must invent ways to prevent or defuse such outbreaks of social contagion, or what Charles Mackay long ago called "extraordinary popular delusions and the madness of crowds".

As Michael Lewis's peerless writing shows, a little thoughtful analysis can reap enormous dividends. If markets and capitalism are to flourish and the costs of human stupidity are to be contained in future, then many things will need to be rethought and reformed. Lewis's latest book, Boomerang: The Meltdown Tour, a characteristic tour de force shows this from Iceland and Ireland to Greece, Germany and California.

Kahneman, meanwhile, is hard at work trying to engineer better thinking in the marketplace, or at least to nudge the unwilling and unwitting in that direction. He is a partner in a firm called Greatest Good, committed to applying cutting-edge data analysis and the insights of behavioural economics to real business challenges.

His associates are a highly impressive group, including Steven Levitt of Freakonomics fame, Gary Becker, John List, Atul Gawande and Lisa Randall. Now that, to adapt Groucho Marx, is a club of which I'd like to be a member.

Thinking, Fast and Slow
By Daniel Kahneman
Allen Lane, 500pp, $29.95

Paul Monk is founder of Austhink Consulting. His most recent book is The West in a Nutshell.

 

[nechaus]

Perhaps they should split the world again, people who want capitalism can live on the left, people that don't can live on the right.
I don't know i don't have the answers, i just know this is less than ideal for most of the population.

If i had 1 billion dollars, i would go buy an island and build sustainable housing that provides food water and electricity, let anyone who has been living on the streets live on it.

The problem with unqualified equality, is that instead of everyone striving to be at the top, everyone will strive to be at the bottom in the sense that they will take the path of maximum comfort and minimum effort, not make trade offs as they do now.

Sure, you will get the odd person who will study medicine for the love of people - or professional curiosity, but will you have enough doctors? Who will service your sustainable houses? people from the other side of the world? Although its often misquoted Gordon Gecko had a point - " Greed
clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. " Greed means people work hard, better themselves, betters humanity. For want of more food, hunters and gatherers became farmers. For want of a better life, people researched, innovated and enterpreneured. Without greed, we would still be in caves. Without greed, we'd be back there in a few generations.

Greed is not a problem - senseless, meaningless, selfish greed is a problem.

Oh, and by the way? If you're on the dole, you're in the top 5% of the world's earners. On the minimum wage? Top 2%. On the median wage? Top 0.5%. No, capitalism hasn't worked for all, but if you're saying it hasn't worked for you, then I think your perspective is skewed.

How can you say that, people will strive to the bottom? How can you know? Because of what happens with people and the current system now.
A system that is equal for everyone has never been done in history... unless i missed something.
I think we have enough tech to really sustain ourselves. If I was to live in a cave, It would be an amazing cave.

 

[Sunder]

I love your work Sunder, I don't think I have seen you post a single thing on this forum that I disagree with.

I just posted this on the book thread I started, but I actually think it is relevant to this thread as well. I am halfway through this book at the moment, and it is awesome. I highly recommend everybody interested in the topics covered in this thread read it. It is called "Thinking, Fast and Slow". THis is a review that appeared in this weekends Australian.

Thanks Philistine... Must mean you're a right thinking person! Or right leaning... Or something

The book looks interesting, but I don't know that I got quite enough detail from the review to justify buying it. I might have a look for it on Amazon or Book Depository later tonight. Now that I've studied basic economics but don't work in that field, I prefer to read "lighter" books on economic, such as books written by Ross Gittens. The book I've been meaning to order is Freakonomics. It's meant to be a humourous application of economics into every day life - but holding on to the economic principles.

May have to do another big book order soon

 

[Sunder]

How can you say that, people will strive to the bottom? How can you know? Because of what happens with people and the current system now.
A system that is equal for everyone has never been done in history... unless i missed something.
I think we have enough tech to really sustain ourselves. If I was to live in a cave, It would be an amazing cave.

Did you miss the entire communism thing? You know, the story of the 10,000 pairs of shoes that were made with the heel on the front. Every factory worker knew and saw, but no factory worker had any incentive to correct the problem? You know, one of the biggest and richest nations of the time, that virtually bankrupted itself during the cold war? Okay, so it wasn't perfectly equal. After all "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others".

One day we might get a utopia where robots do everything. But for now, the question is - who runs the tech? Who repairs the tech when it breaks? Who advances the tech, or do we just stay stagnant?

 

[deVries]

Also, to chop down another point. There are no such things as "zero percent" loans. The only people they would give those to would never have the need to apply for one. It's a scam to get people in the door, tell them they don't qualify, then string them up at 21%apr.

No, what I was suggesting was having a banking system that lends at 0%, since you seem to suggest a Banker is The Evil Empire. Banks do provide a service of growing the economy by lending & creating new jobs where there were none before. How do you plan to do a better job that is more efficient?

What is the solution to transfer easily some symbolic form of work-exchange beyond bartering or coins? How would we make the most efficient market of work-exchange?

Again, I ask anyone here including mdd0127 what is your solution for an efficient economy?

Quit bitching at "the man" & offer what is better?

 

[nechaus]

This is making me tired thinking about it. Iv had a big day.
perhaps im thinking about this in the wrong way.
Maybe there is no such thing as being equal as we are all so different.
but i think no one should have to live in poverty, and there should be a standard.
Walking through the city, i see this same homeless women sitting on this same chair everyday.
i don't like that, and think there should be a way around this so it never happens to anyone, unless they want to live like that.

 

[deVries]

I believe the problem is capitalism. As long as people have the goal of being on the top, that is the problem. and as long as this type system is in place there will be those type of people, that is the problem. So basically there will always be that huge gap with rich and poor.

There are Sociopathic financial-political criminals that will game *any* system. The more unregulated with no rule of law the more the potential there is for damage to the system. This is why The Black Box OTC system of derivatives at 595 Trillion dollars (in 2007) that is unregulated has destroyed & will continue to destroy our capital markets worldwide.

If i had 1 billion dollars, i would go buy an island and build sustainable housing that provides food water and electricity, let anyone who has been living on the streets live on it.

No need to do that, since we have a welfare system supported by your taxes *if* done effectively it can keep people off the streets with food in the belly. The more the wealth is concentrated into fewer hands the more unfair the system becomes, because Criminal Sociopaths are concentrated in this upper strata of society. Too much wealth in too few hands produces Fascism & Socialism in its extremes doing the most damage. That's why the middle way of the middle class is the best form of society. The countries with the largest middle classes are by far the most developed countries in the world, IMO.

Prove me wrong please!

Maybe there is no such thing as being equal as we are all so different.

Right, exactly, but the bigger the middle class the more fair society is as a whole. That means in terms of money there is more equality, but people can & should compete for the "better jobs" without having to worry about poverty on the streets & old age insecurity as the basis for survival. Otherwise, society will degenerate as a whole & become weaker & less moral, and then it opens to the "energies of evil" & Sociopaths Rule the System.

Eugenics is still in effect now, but it's just done through the ideology of Survival of The Fittest & you "less-fit" unproductive people die, otherwise, while we send you into the streets with inadequate food too.

I think no one should have to live in poverty, and there should be a standard. Walking through the city, i see this same homeless women sitting on this same chair everyday.

See above for the best solution, imo, otherwise someone please step forward with a better solution.

 

[Tom Tom]

I have read all the pages of this thread, took me bloody ages.

I believe the problem is capitalism.

Disagree. I believe the SOLUTION is Capitalism.

You state you are young and have a good job and a house and feel sorry for someone on the street that they cant even get land to build there own house.

Nothing is preventing YOU from giving them YOUR land or YOUR job or YOUR house. Bam! Problem solved right?

When people are born into this world there is no guarantee of success and it can not be given, it must be earned.

Life is the sum total of the choices one makes. Capitalism in its truest form provides that. Work hard and smart and you are rewarded.

Problem is true Capitalism is eroding before our eyes. Again the SOLUTION is capitalism.

 

[deVries]

They were making so much money on credit default swaps and ninja loans they closed down the gold certificate business years ago. This is what got them in trouble.

Who is "they"

The local banks were not the masterminds. In fact, most ninja liar loans were just hired guns as agents for finders fees to keep the big banks off the books of direct involvement. Wall Street & the largest banks got their politicians they control, own, bribe, this is Fascism, btw, to legalize what had been regulated & governed by rule of law & took it off the books to not regulate it. Alan Greenspan is one of the main henchman that was delusional in the ideology of Ayn Rand, and he essentially was insane or sociopathic in its belief system by pinning Ayn Rand onto the entire economies of the world in the secrecy of the 565 Trillion dollar Black Box of the OTC derivatives market.

REP. HENRY WAXMAN:You have been a staunch advocate for letting markets regulate themselves. And my question for you is simple... Were you wrong?

ALAN GREENSPAN: Yes, I found a flaw, but I've been very distressed by that fact.

REP. HENRY WAXMAN: You found a flaw in the reality...

ALAN GREENSPAN: Flaw in the model that I perceived is the critical functioning structure that defines how the world works, so to speak.

REP. HENRY WAXMAN: In other words, you found that your view of the world, your ideology, was not right?

ALAN GREENSPAN: Precisely. No, that's precisely the reason I was shocked, because I had been going for 40 years or more with very considerable evidence that it was working exceptionally well.

Why aren't any of these people investigated, put in jail, publicly disgraced, etc. Because these people have made themselves Above the Law, and so we have a Fascist system of governance that complains about the socialist blood suckers of society, the poor! & the middle class shrinks rapidly too!

 

[deVries]

Problem is true Capitalism is eroding before our eyes. Again the SOLUTION is capitalism.

Under the US Constitution any market system must be based on the rule of law & its enforcement of these laws. It is especially true in the financial markets, since the WMD derivatives are not enforced by rule of law or enforcement in its Black Box OTC. It's the largest economy in the world bar none & it is "off the books", and will screw you & everyone to kingdom come... ...until it is regulated & enforced by rule of law.

Hmmm, that is not "true capitalism" what we have now. What we have is illegal under the US Constitution, imo.

"The Constitution guarantees the rights of “life, liberty, and property” in the 5th Amendment to the Constitution, and then again in the 14th Amendment, which protects those rights against interference by the states."

"The US Supreme Court did belatedly discover the “pursuit of happiness” when interpreting the 14th Amendment to the Constitution. In the 1923 case of Meyer v. Nebraska, there was a challenge to a state law prohibiting the teaching of foreign language to elementary and middle school children. Speaking for the court, Justice McReynolds stated that the liberty guaranteed by the 14th Amendment includes not only freedom from restraint, but also, the right to work, to raise a family and, “generally to enjoy those privileges long recognized as essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.”

You’ll note that the court referred not to an unfettered pursuit of happiness, but to the “orderly” pursuit of happiness; in other words, you can’t pursue happiness to the point of breaking the law or violating other people’s rights. Fair enough."

This is a National Security Issue of the greatest importance. Who the frack is doing what? Well, so far we are allowing our Financial & Political conspirators to rapidly destroy our economy & wealth in a raging sea of WMD OTC Fiat Derivatives destroying our personal financial property without our ability to regulate & prosecute the illegal operations that are at the very top of the pyramid dominating every economy in the world. :x

I consider this the new form of Warfare on the USA & world at large. Who are these warriors hidden behind the curtain? Are these enemies within, traitors, or other nation states & wealthy elites that want to destroy America or our systems of governance? Or, just unregulated sociopathic greed with no rules or laws that sucked in our public trust of banks, Wall Street, Insurance companies that are publicly traded & not private?

Is this the new war of tyranny & real financial terrorism?

 

[deVries]

The Taxpayer Is the Lender of Last Resort to the Bankrupt CDS Casino. In this case, Paulson won betting that homeowners would default, while his counterparties lost the same amount taking the opposite side of the bet. Because these OTC transactions were not properly capitalized, the losing counterparties would have collapsed under the strain of paying these bets; in addition, because of interconnectedness among financial institutions, any single collapse of a major financial institution would have destabilized the worldwide economy. Only the intervention of taxpayers as the lender of last resort stemmed the onset of a worldwide depression.
The analysis surrounding this subject estimates that there may have been three to four times as many ―naked‖ CDS instruments extant at the time of the meltdown than CDSs guaranteeing actual risk (Kopecki and Harrington 2009; U.S. Congress, Senate 2008). This means that to the extent that the guarantors of CDSs (e.g., AIG) had to be rescued by the U.S.
15
taxpayer, the chances were very high that the ―bail out‖ was of failed naked CDS bets that mortgages would be paid (prominent Members of Congress have maintained that the holders of bets that mortgages would fail have formed a strong political constituency against the ―rescue‖ of subprime borrowers through the adjustment of mortgages to keep homeowners from defaulting; Grim 2009).
The fact that ―naked‖ CDS and ―synthetic‖ CDOs were nothing more than ―bets‖ on the viability of the subprime market also demonstrates the importance of the CFMA expressly preempting state gaming and anti-bucket shop laws (Johnson and Hazen 2004, 975). Had those laws not been preempted, it is almost certain that at least some states would have banned these investments as unlicensed gambling or illegal bucket shops. An action of this sort by even a single state would have disrupted the ―naked‖ CDS market throughout the country.
Interconnectedness: The Systemic Risk Derived from All Types of Swaps
Swaps Other Than CDS Have Caused Serious Financial Dislocations. While CDSs and synthetic CDOs almost certainly lit the fuse that led to the recent explosive financial destabilization, the remainder of the OTC market has historically led to other destabilizing events in the economy. These include the recent energy and food commodity bubble, the near failure of LTCM in 1998, the Orange Country bankruptcy of 1994, and now, through cross currency swaps masking the full extent of sovereign debt, a causative factor of the European sovereign debt crisis (Greenberger 2008, 2-3; Greenberger 2009, 4-5; Story, Thomas, and Schwartz 2010).
Unregulated OTC Derivatives of All Kinds Cause “Too Big To Fail.” However, even if looking only at the financial crisis of 2007 and beyond, the remainder of the unregulated OTC derivatives market was central to the crisis‘s causation. That is because the remainder of the OTC derivative market relates directly to the interconnectedness that made large financial
16
institutions ―too big to fail,‖ and the prevention of a cascading collapse of the financial system therefore required calling upon the American taxpayer to bail out many of those huge financial entities (Greenberger 2008).
The Lehman Bankruptcy. As now can be seen from the Lehman bankruptcy proceedings, Lehman was a counterparty or guarantor of over 930,000 OTC derivatives. (Charles 2009, 16). To the extent that these contracts did not involve CDS, they certainly involved unregulated interest rate, currency, foreign exchange, and energy swaps. The Lehman liquidators are now embarked in a huge battle with Lehman‘s OTC derivative counterparties, claiming that those counterparties have greatly exaggerated the value of amounts owed by Lehman pursuant to those derivatives (Murphy and Sakoui 2010).
AIG Interconnectedness. Of course, it was the very failure of Lehman, and the cascading adverse and substantial impacts its bankruptcy has caused, that led the Federal Reserve and the Treasury to alter course on the day after Lehman‘s failure, and to prevent AIG‘s bankruptcy and then to recommend the TARP bailout. Those actions revealed to the world the correlation between interconnectedness of unregulated OTC swaps transactions and the too big to fail doctrine (Congressional Oversight Panel 2010, 9).
All Swaps Are Masked By Opaque Accounting Principles. A final reason all derivatives—not just credit derivatives—played a role in the onset of the crisis is that they were by virtue of swaps dealer lobbying never properly accounted for on balance sheets. Because of a major lobbying effort by ISDA,
banks and corporations that trade swaps do not play by the same rules as other individuals and businesses. Banks are permitted to exclude their full exposure to swaps from their financial statements and instead report only the ―fair value‖
17
changes in those swaps over time. Such reporting is like an individual reporting only the change in their debt balances, instead of reporting the debts themselves. (Partnoy and Turner 2010, 88)
Thus, prior to the meltdown, swaps of all kinds were masked by a double barrier of opacity, i.e., not only were they private and bilateral, but they were even hidden on the balance sheets of those institutions most likely to suffer from their adverse impact. This kind of balance sheet opacity blinded regulators and market observers from the explosive and toxic nature of the contractual obligations embedded in swaps. And, when the crisis became full blown in September 2008, this opacity led both the extenders of credit and policy makers to fear the worst. As a result, bank lending froze up, causing the credit crisis.

Conclusion
By officially removing the multi-trillion dollar swaps market from the traditional norms of market regulation in 2000, a highly speculative derivative bubble was created that was opaque to federal regulators and market observers alike. Thus, there were no capital adequacy protections, and the lack of oversight allowed trillions of dollars of financial commitments to be made with no assurance that those commitments could be fulfilled beyond the highly illusory AAA ratings of the counterparties in question.
Had the norms of market regulation been applicable, these swaps transactions would have been adequately capitalized by traditional clearing norms; and the dangers building up in these markets would otherwise have been observable by the transparency and price discipline that accompanies exchange trading.

 

[ninjamik]

So sunder!,

first of all freakonomics is a very good book!, some of the views touched upon by myself in these posts are explained very thoroughly in that book and the wider perspective begins to show how messed up we have let it get. and it is by a world leading economist!! another very good book on banking corruption is the creature from jekyll island!! tells the story of the un constitutional signing of the federal reserve act. also one on the banking collapse and who caused it, by the BBC economics editor from news night Paul Mason, its called meltdown, the end of the age of greed!! he explains fully how the casino that owns this world runs!!

thanks for the healthy debate!, you too gordo, and anyone else who threw in, not meaning to leave anyone out or be rude!! it's quite refreshing to have a conversation on this subject with some people who at least have a grasp of how things work even if they are through the slightly rose tinted glasses of a right winger (not that im left either that is a fools game set up to fool fools in to believing in something. like paper gold and money!!) as they will always follow the system and never question it too much! after all if a system has made you wealthy why question it?...don't get me wrong i have done well enough out of capitalism so am not bitter, just hate to see the hypocrisy of it all..
I take opposition to the fact i mixed half truth or fallacy in any part of my correspondence..the only half truth was exactly that, just as the statement of facts with a double meaning, do you understand at the end of your rights read to you by a copper, is a half truth, yes he is asking if you comprehend what he is saying, but at the very same time due to legalese redefinitions he is also stating to you, do you Stand-Under, defer to my authority, at the point you agree you do understand (thinking he asked if you comprehend), you have made a contract, allowing the policeman to arrest you for a non common law crime. I'e a commercial rule break not a criminal act under the constitution!! see halve truths are actually more powerful, they are double truths depending on whether you are on the inside or not!! portrayed one way for truth and another for nefarious hidden actions. its like if i get you to make a contract for me to be your boss..but i made the contract using a secret definition of terms to trick you! like (in this statement the word Boss actually means owner!) so long as the re-terms are there in small print in even un understandable terms, then all is legal... Legal maxim, let he who be fooled be fooled...its your own fault if you don't do due diligence...and don't tell me that if you paid for and invented/established a system you wouldn't add in a few rules to make it way safer and more profitable for you to make money out of your system. pray on fools to make money from their work!!

you could possibly equate it like this, you are correct the Bank does not physically invent money permanently, but they do get to make a transaction to gain interest with no input of their own...a bank does not need to use its own money to make vast amounts for its self, its called usury for a reason, people get used.. you could from the inside use a friendly term robbing peter to pay paul, (as i love our childlike story analogies!) a banker would happily state it like this, no harm done a swap was done under promises and the bank made a little interest. but another man, not a banker, would say Peter got robbed, he may get payed back in the end (well with another promise! haha) but he did need to be robbed so the bank could make interest off his money with no investment from there selves. because making money off your own money is too risky, this is why...there was always a point peter could not get his money back, because the bank had lent out 90% of it..so until he got paid he was technically robbed....he thought his money was in the bank and the bank used its money to pay paul but they used his money instead...(what bloody happened to jill! and even jack for that matter by the way, banks go bust because they loan out too much money they haven't got, so the money isn't invented permanently, just long enough for the bank to make a bit of interest then Default swap it or some other trick so send it on its way before the final payout is required back....it is always the bank at the end of the chain that collapses..hence lehman bros, all the banks got together in 2008 with greenspan/ and had what was described as the worlds biggest ever game of poker...32men none of which were ever elected sat down and planned the fate of the world... and bought each others debt til one company Lehman, was basically sat with all the toxic debts, they let it collapse (while allowing the chief exec to still keep 2.5 billion) keeping most of the other companies afloat...then the taxpayer was forced to pick up the bill for the vast amounts the banking world used to get massively rich but didn't want to pay back!!... we justify this by calling it the velocity of money,
all elitist systems are run like this with a common knowledge for the serfs, the un initiated, and another more nefarious secret meaning used by the inside people in the know!!
Banking s like this, law is like this, science is and even medicine...all have a club you must join, the Bar etc, once you are in you will never complain about or even see the problems with it because your view has been jaded to respect the system that allows you privileges over the normal man, like massive get quick deals at the expense of the only people who have money, the tax payer..

my friends husband is in the serious organised crime agency, Britains FBI...she believes you should be shot if you run from the police, very right wing, but then when she speeds her car comes up as classified so the police don't even stop her...its called being hypocritical because you are used to the benefits of a system..an you are blind to the hypocrisy..it s why masonry and all other elitist societies work so well...their members are so happy with their privileges they never stop to question the morality of what they are doing!!..and if they are low level they have no idea what they are doing has a secret dark side to it. it is a hard fact to swallow...I was brought up using the term for my country, Great Britain! not the U.K, and was proudly shown in school how much of the world was red on the map and how we civillized the world...funny how murder, rape of natural resources, and oppression of the worlds people equates into civilizing the world...your right we wouldn't be where we are now without it!!!...maybe we could be somewhere better...just maybe?

in comments about Isms, (another game given to us by elites through ownership of the media and education) you are again correct that capitalism does seem to work the best in the tried and tested methods (isms),(someone used master 32nd degree mason Winston Churchills quote on that one.) compared to all other left right middle, isms, but its all a system of control to get everyone ruled under each ideology then oppose those two ideologies. its called Hegelian dialectic...order from chaos, thesis vs antithesis = synthesis.... Feudal ism- was the first set of elites to rule with the might of the sword keeping it in the family to the detriment of the world.( i know its not an ideology like im a feudalist!)., capitalism rose from good beginnings as it is based on the one true Ism, Individualism. this is where all proper human rights come from, the rights of the individual to life, freedom of mind body and spirit so long as his freedoms do not oppress or subdue the freedoms and wishes of another individual! (this can work, but involves no ruling elite!) but since the feudal elites already had a head start, the rampant corruption of the system actually becomes detrimental to the group... its all a bit like a race. (on a farm??) again comments on spreading wealth through enterprise in a cascading fashion can work! so the stronger improve the weak by the general speed of the progression. This is how things "should" work! but what actually happens is this! the better people at playing the "system" as professed by you as the answer...tend to find little empathy for the week as they are not as good as them in their eyes, so rather than assist the lower tears they find it easier and more profitable to "throw logs in the road" making it impossible for the pack to catch up! Infact what is worse is scientific research (see new scientist, secret network does rule the world) and empirical evidence (look at the world) that the elite group begin to prey on the week like wolves on sheep!! some of the wolves even wear sheep's clothing to help gide the pack! (see Fabianism and the fabian secret society)...this is surely not a good system for for the original group! (the sheep) it just breeds fat wolves!!!....this is the point we are at now. We have a group of 50 companies! 10 of which are (I shouldn't have to tell you by now) BANKS!...they own over 60% of the worlds industry and assets,(only 1400 comanies own 95%!!) yes thats 60% of the world owned by lets say each company has 20 major stock holders? 1000 men? at the most....we now have the worlds biggest company (just overtook exxon/mobil-rockerfellers) and leader of all the mid washed connected to the system and tracked permanently i-sheep...APPLE...worth $380 billion,,compared to the GDP of Greece...(a civilized, developed although nearly Bank-Rupt country) 304 Billion...
so we basically have companies with more money and power than Countries on the international politics scene...Its just gone too far, the people who had a headstart in the first place, the old feudal masters, europes nobility, were joined by the indutrialists in that revolution and others who made LOTS of money though totally Imoral, never mind Unlawful means such as people trafficking, slavery, murder for land and minerals and drug running on a massive scale....these people own everything...I promise you, 90% of all the gold, 90% of all the land! and worse 100% of you....so this is why using the system to your advantage although clever in the short run for your own sake is the worst think for the future and your kids and descendents...(famous quote by several people including einstien) you see all it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing...so how can doing worse than that and joining the system to help it grow and get worse be the answer?...
onto socialism as i have not touched on that yet!...I bet people are waiting for the Eco hippy?? to say how good it is!! No, No, No, for a start we haven't ever actually seen socialism, we have seen elite groups keep all the money and power!- but it still isn't the answer (it told you it wasn't a right left issue they are all the hands of the same puppet master) socialism neglects one thing! firstly that no, everyone is not the same, so you cant try to make them...and also it is impossible to protect the rights of the Individual, (the most important thing on this planet besides Love) yay the hippy is back!..
i should have the right to believe i'm not the same! and if i can prove it then good on me!...this is why our capitalist choice was a good one. but what we now have is Corporatism! which is actually just fascism!...the head and founder of the Facists (italians)...in ww2 Mussolini described it as this! Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power.
This is what we have now!.... who were the last people to have homeland security groups! The National-sosialist fascists that were the third reich!!
A robot utopia is a way off, but we have to be careful of eco-socialism too, (zietgeist movement, venus project) what if i dont want to live in your new super solar city, off to the camps..

in answer to the questions though. very very soon, the robots will design, maintain and advance it self! at a much faster rate than us btw! transumanists! (elitist who want to live for ever -eg walt disneys frozen head was the start..) believe we will have to merge with the technology or it will out strip us in intelligence exponentially (which is true) and humans (the wolves actually) will live forever as post human gods!!
BTW the technological singularity is coming by 2020 there will be a computer as intelligent as a human by 2040 an average PC for $1000 dollars will be more powerful than all the brains on the earth combined but that is again another story!...people will laugh but it is scientific fact due to the law of accelerating return that has existed since man made stone tools and fire and we know it today as moors law....

I think ill end here for the moment as i have digressed as usual and have been away from the thred for a while so need to catch up!

oh and DeVries! spot on mate! at least someone here is educated and unbiased/ subjective enough to understand the truth...no disrespect to anyone else...its just the truth. these are the facts of how frocked up our world is!! if you choose not to believe them its totally up to you...but beliving a lie unfortunately makes you wrong and in some bad cases part of the problem...

 

[ninjamik]

but unfortunately mate that makes us the most frustrated and the first ones off to the camps!!! haha

I am still most definitely one of the wolves! as they are the ones who survive, I just happen to be one of the only ones! (there are a few others too!) that feel sorry for the sheep and think there may be a better way for us all to survive!

 

[ninjamik]

To catch up! my answer to the problem is Individualist capped capitalism! (basically a return to your constitution in its un bastardised version.) we/ sorry your founding fathers did get it right that people should be free to better them selves. But....
there should be a cap to how much you can earn without it all being pumped to good causes in poor countries or in your own, you get to choose its was your money!! and such...say a few billion for a company, and no individual is allowed more than say 100million?
this still fits under a individualist ideology where everyone is free...you could say what if i don't want to limit to 100million, i have a right to my individual freedom to earn money!...yes but your right is infringing on everyone else s' right to do the same because you are buying up markets and politicians and ruining competition...
I also think there should be a re -distribution of wealth. I don't mean shared out equally a few dollars each...the rich can still be quite rich, they worked for it (apparently all legally and tax paid!!) but not as rich... No companies richer than Countries, and certainly no off shore banks, this is how globalist corporate tyranny sets in when it can buy international politics and law making...

we should have TRILLIONS of dollars released from off shore banks...this could be used to maybe,.... give water to everyone in the world! (cost 90billion, we spend 98billion every year on bottled water! ha)
then maybe, massive solar farms in the worlds deserts, inter connected with super connecting cables, so countries in the sun provide countries in the dark shadow of the earth light at night time!!! cost a trillion or so?
we could probably even afford a permanent, perpetually beaming orbital one with the technology and resources we have locked away in greedy peoples vaults!!

if Eugenicist Bill Gates chose to give his 58billion to A proper charity instead of paying for thousands and thousands of people in the third world vaccinated with the side effect of sterilisation (you see you can't give 7billion humans water if they will keep having children to make more humans to give water to!) then we would be half way to every single person on earth having water...

you see the road to (maybe robot)utopia is actually the foundation of all industry. Fuel...if you can fuel primary industry for free then it takes the biggest percentage out of the cost of an item....this is the road to abundance!...the second probably is replace human jobs with robots that will be here very soon (within 10yrs) dont see this as a bad thing its good working is slavery, that's why its for automatons! we are not meant to work! we are free human beings, our efforts of creation should be for free and for the good of human kind!, it wont matter if you take the cost out of good so you don't need to work to have what you want!....

these are possibly the first two steps..have you noticed under the current system, the people who will get energy for free very soon, will charge you for it when it cost then a pittance...this is wrong!
mankind should release the money! mainly stolen and scammed out of the worlds populace by people clever enough to invent the tricks! and start in roads to providing the basics for everyone, this is easy with the technological level of science today, its just the old money and power structures protecting there own interests for more power, control and money that stop this from happening..

If the UN was not an elitist paid for eugenicist supra-national beating stick for the world, it could be used to turn this world round quite quickly just by releasing funds resources and moving people around where expertise was needed....

of course for any of this to happen it would need a world revolution, (which may be in the air!) but good luck,(because the wolves have all the teeth!) especially the USA against a police/military industrial complex-martial law state...what are the sheep going to do against the worlds biggest and Baddest arm it has ever seen! (lets hope there are enough oath keepers!)

I will try to come up with a non revolution solution too, its just hard as things have got so bad, the corruption has riddled its way through the world for 300yrs or more! even after revolutions we have had the elite have still ended up in control every time! (in fact sometimes headed the revolutions!) bloody fabian wolves again!!

it would have to be a boil the frog gradual advance, so the pan gradually gets hotter without you noticing till it is too late, but that is what they have done to us for so long so im sure they would notice the signs....

but that was why earlier i suggested the only chance to maybe reverse the situation now is vote for Ron Paul, as like i said he is the only candidate that has not just mentioned but is passionate about returning to the constitution, as for my country i think were frocked! the corruption has been in society for so long, it is now the aristocracy, the Private facist entities now know as ministry of this, ministry of that, totally obscured from public view as separate to the government... i'll think of somethin' though! hehe

speaking of off shore accounts, Mitt Romney is CFR elitist scum! and is happy for america to go down, why do you think his money is off shore! just thought i'd add that!....sorry but he is!

 

[deVries]

but what we now have is Corporatism! which is actually just fascism!...the head and founder of the Facists (italians)...in ww2 Mussolini described it as this! Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power.
This is what we have now!.... who were the last people to have homeland security groups! The National-sosialist fascists that were the third reich!!

I'm 100% in agreement with you here on the Corporatism Fascism idea. And, thanks for mentioning that New Scientist article. 8) Regarding the snippet below, I would like to see the Network Relationships between the Universities & Think Tanks these corporate & political elites attended or belong to. Perhaps this is where the network roots begin that grows the power & wealth, which then form the lifelong associations of their network too. In this sense there could be "group think" conspiracy without it being just on a personal level of associations. Their tribe is more a "group conspiracy" that their power players create to gain advantage over everyone else.

One thing won't chime with some of the protesters' claims: the super-entity is unlikely to be the intentional result of a conspiracy to rule the world. "Such structures are common in nature," says Sugihara.

Newcomers to any network connect preferentially to highly connected members. TNCs buy shares in each other for business reasons, not for world domination. If connectedness clusters, so does wealth, says Dan Braha of NECSI: in similar models, money flows towards the most highly connected members. The Zurich study, says Sugihara, "is strong evidence that simple rules governing TNCs give rise spontaneously to highly connected groups". Or as Braha puts it: "The Occupy Wall Street claim that 1 per cent of people have most of the wealth reflects a logical phase of the self-organising economy."

So, the super-entity may not result from conspiracy. The real question, says the Zurich team, is whether it can exert concerted political power. Driffill feels 147 is too many to sustain collusion. Braha suspects they will compete in the market but act together on common interests. Resisting changes to the network structure may be one such common interest.

 

[Sunder]

To catch up! my answer to the problem is Individualist capped capitalism! (basically a return to your constitution in its un bastardised version.) we/ sorry your founding fathers did get it right that people should be free to better them selves. But....

Wow, you have a lot to say - too much for me to answer to in a systematic way.

I will say it appears that while you make some legitimate observations into the fallacies of the system, your interpretation of them seem some what paranoid, seeing conspiracies in normal cooperation.

It is true that the rich become richer, and leave the poor behind: More so in America than in Australia, where we have a decent socialism program. But you see that the rich are intentionally throwing logs on the road. In Australia, you pay for your education essentially as an interest free loan (Interest is charged at roughly CPI). That's not throwing logs on the road, that's smoothing the path so that the poor can improve their earning capacity. In Australia, we have a fairly progressive tax system - progressive meaning the more you earn, the bigger proportion tax you pay: Not just in income tax, but the removal of subsidies, the imposition of additional levies (Medicare surcharge and flood levy for example), and anything above a fairly basic sedan has luxury tax on it. Where do all these taxes go? Universal healthcare - which only people under a certain income get totally free - others make co-contributions towards - free education to year 12, interest free loans for tertiary education.

In Australia, until you earn about 10k above the median wage, your services are being subsidized by the rich. That's right. If you're Joe Average on 60ish K a year, you're NOT paying your fair share of taxes. Company tax, and those in the top tax bracket are paying for your health, your education, your police, your defence, etc...

The system is different in the US - but is capitalism at the root of it? Or government?

 

[deVries]

there should be a cap to how much you can earn ... say a few billion for a company, and no individual is allowed more than say 100million?
this still fits under a individualist ideology where everyone is free...you could say what if i don't want to limit to 100million, i have a right to my individual freedom to earn money!...yes but your right is infringing on everyone else s' right to do the same because you are buying up markets and politicians and ruining competition...
I also think there should be a re -distribution of wealth. I don't mean shared out equally a few dollars each...the rich can still be quite rich, they worked for it (apparently all legally and tax paid!!) but not as rich... No companies richer than Countries, and certainly no off shore banks, this is how globalist corporate tyranny sets in when it can buy international politics and law making...

Your ideas seem very reasonable to me. I'm all for optimizing money wealth to maximize the size of the middle class. This will allow for the most numbers of productive people to be better educated & have more time to create, which benefits all, yet still have room for motivation to become rich too. This should create more wealthy people in times of innovation or technology shifts, yet also preserve more of the middle class in times of hardship or natural disasters, etc. Plus, I believe in a society that cares for its sick, elderly, and children, and this includes basic shelter & decent food & medical care.

Btw, I don't think Ron Paul is for real unless he runs as a 3rd party candidate. He knows the game is fixed for Obama & Romney, so I see he has no choice but to run 3rd party. Having RP in the debates between President Obama & Romney would be awesome.

 

[ninjamik]

yes very well put Dude!,
if you go to tragedy and hope.com, the makers of the very impressive what you've been missing series about the dumbing down and infiltration of the education system and its prussian origins as a way to select different levels of workers for serving society and not educate free thinking logical people. ( i even ordered the book the Trivium, and the Quadrivium, the 7 liberal arts and logical fallacies, and plato's "republic" after watching it!) and the film hijacking humanity! on the same site. it is by a guy who made millions selling accounts software that found out there was a back door that allowed you to delete transactions with no data trail. he had been selling this to wall street and even the FCC, he reported this to the FCC as he realised he had sold them faulty software, only to find out they were using the "glitch" suddenly he lost his job and basically became enemy of the state!...so he started research, only to find out how deep the rabbit hole actually went..

they use a software to illustrate their findings called my brain i think that makes interlinks between subject matter in a dynamic environment, they have on there sire, network maps of how the whole system interconnects, you see new scientist are not the first people to look into this by a long shot!....they are actually just starting to confirm findings that have been out in the open if you know where to look a long time! ( thats usually in the opposite direction of the main stream media!)...

i realise that the article said it may have an evolutionary root, it may just be emergent, MAY was the word used! it emerges in the way i explained, which still fits the emergent theory where we all set of as a flock, but the brighter ones get ahead, and actually evolve into different entities to the sheep! (namely wolves) this then causes the people who realise they have wolf potential to turn on the flock and start eating sheep!...

I can tell you how the think tanks and education system interconnect, it all stems back to Cecil Rhodes...and today you can find examples in the owner of FB with zuckerberg peter thiels the thiel fellows...
you pay for young students to go through university so they can do research in areas you want scientific advancement and influence in. Easy, this is done by individuals. just in case you think he is acting alone, he is a member of the CFR the tri lateral commission, who want one world government, he is on the steering commission of the builderberg group, do you want any more examples of some one connected to secret societies that run the world. By the way this guy also is a member of the singularity sumit and wants to be a transhumanist! with super human powers by his own volition.!!

i'm glad you have an interest and understand that there are problems and what they are even. you just need now to follow you thesis that this is somehow groupthink involved in a non participatory way, but the more you research the interconnections of the world financial grid the more you find all roads lead towards but not directly to Rothschild Ave!...I promise i have spent years researching the subject and have an IQ of 157 (adv 90-100, stephen Hawkins 165)and used to along time ago be in mensa. im not trying to boast, (mensa is another elitist eugenicist camp set up to prove white people were cleverer than black people) i am just trying to convince people that i am not some conspiracy theorist, its a pavlovian trained response for people to switch off if they think you are! I have spent years investigating real world evidence in such places as the british museum, the national archives, world heritage sites, the library, peer reviewed journals and finally the internet. I do not just read conspiracy sites and take it for truth, and regurgitate it, i research it from every angle possible using the rules of logical fallacy, then come to a conclusion based on that...I have discounted and discredited many pieces of evidence portrayed as fact in the online world, but the fact still remains that if you research hard enough and keep going back and delving deeper, you can clearly see it is a plan that has been executed gradually throughout history to bring us towards a one world government ruled forever by the elites!...it is written about in Platos republic, one of the greatest philosophers of all time.his republic run by elites is the model. this is their goal. it is like a club, that as you rise through the echelons of power and riches you get offered into the club and spelled out its ideals..
if you had just become a wolf, way more intelligent and powerful than a sheep, and the rest of the wolves told you they had a plan to make sure the sheep could never escape their clutches, you would go along with it too.

I for years have wanted it to be a group think kinda thing but have found little evidence of this, what i have found is overwhelming evidence, i would say proof of an interconnected set of occult secret societies with a central controlling cabal that rule the world and have done for a very long time!...

but yes, group think for the most to act in the wolves best interest, but with the guiding had of a couple of shepherds, (who like to eat sheep too and wear woolly jumpers but can also tame and control wolves!! and will wear wolf hide for warmth too!..

also sunder, I apologise for having a bit to much to say to answer systematically! but like i said its a accumulation of many years research on the subject..it unfortunately does come off a little paranoid, but it is indeed the truth if you had enough time to research it and the but i feel it is my duty to tell people the truth... I am very good at getting to the bottom of something by evaluation of masses of evidence....it is through this technique in many years of study i have been able to speak so confidently on such matters..if i had started to research and found no evidence of conspiracy/ altered history (remember it is written by the winners it is only one side of the story) then i would be in ignorant bliss just like i used to be and like most in this world, but as a very clever wolf i would like to believe wolves and sheep could live in peace and warn a few sheep! I could have taken the easy root after finding all this out and joined the club and chowed down on lamb for dinner!!

 

[ninjamik]

Sorry im one post behind...i agree with your ideas too!

and yes i also agree about RP...i do want him to be the hope america needs but always expect the worse these days! because of my paranoia! haha

oh and dont get me started on the private business owned racket that is the university system...putting the adverage kid in england £21grand into debt slavery before they're 21. haha

and my university education cost me £12000 yes interest free, but how much did the elitist scum have to pay for their degree? Nothing, well they probably went to private school so that cost a lot but their degree will have been gratis!!!#

Not logs in the road???? i get to a destination on the bus for free then when i get there i set a toll both just before it that says $10000, a year to get in!!!! intrest free loan though!!! hahaha,,,

 

[nechaus]

Holy crap!

I would not let the women in my house, she would not even let me buy her a $2 double cheese burger @ lunch time, she does not want help.

Sociopathic financial political criminals, Really who are they?

I know This man his Extremely wealthy person and has been for most of his life.
The moment he got rich, was the moment he turned into an evil c*nt ..
He does not support communities, he complains about tax.
I can almost guarantee he earns more 10 times anyone on this forum, well into the 7 digit mark ... well into it.
He bargains more at shops than i do. ( things at $2 dollars are cheap enough, he would still ask for a discount)
yes trying to get a lower price is good, but i don't understand this bloke sometimes.
He always wants to pay less for everything, constantly trying to figure out ways of cutting costs, only because he wants more money, more money than he actually needs to live a Fantastic life.
instead of living a fantastic life, he would rather save money, and when his 90 and is about to die, i believe he will regret it when he has no family around him.

I have seen the change on what large sums of money does to people, sometimes good, sometimes bad

 

[ninjamik]

just to help you understand how the world is run a little more! in terms of the manipulation of the populace into war for money for the banks and military industrial complex in a paradigm control matrix ran by politicians and the media. this is a quote from george bushes aid Karl Rove, (involved in watergate then elected into power by HW Bush) to Ron Suskind! it was about-reality based community, a world that is shaped by false flag terrorism, the media, phony wars for oil and a dash for world government....

The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do...

this is a little insight into the elitist mindset, remember power corrupts, absolute power corrupts... absolutely....lets not march towards destroying our national sovereignties which we are letting happen as we speak. Every Right we give up for "safety" from the terrorism boggyman! publicly known to be invented by the CIA. Al qeada was the name of a database the CIA created, and it is provable that the incidents responsible for many of the wars that have taken place were false flag attacks commited by the USA or its allies to start a war. The gulf of tonken incident, and the sinking of the lucitania, all ADMITTED TO by the american government in released documents under FOIA requests...

Nechaus, yes this is the effect being very rich can have, now just imagine you meet up all the time with the protection of the CIA MI6 Mossad behind closed doors in a media blackout, with like minded people who are greedy and crave more money and power just like you, and mix in a few politicians totally against the laws of most countries in the world.... it is a real group,
it's called the builderberg group and its made up of the 300 richest/most powerful people in the world and they meet up every year... but no one ever sees this on the news!? why, you would think this would be as big as an earth summit or something...its because the corportocracy (industry owners) tell the worlds governments what laws to make so as to make the companies lives easier...import duties, taxation etc....

i'm not sure who the woman is though??? where did she come from?

and was Sociopathic financial political Criminals, Really who are they, a rhetorical question? or did you want me to give you names right now...

it would take a while to write them all down in order of prevalence but could be done i suppose. it is a massive interconnected web that spans the globe now though so is a massive subject to research..

deVries started with a good list of a couple of them!