fractional reserve

[Sunder]

but seeing as you've not been to post a pearl of wisdom on the chipping or trans humanists scenario I thought I could help you out!

Ah, You see, this is the crux of our problem. You expect me to answer every single one of your points, when most of them are irrelevant to the argument.

If I'm a sniper rifle, you're a gas driven, fully automatic 12 guage shotgun. I take one issue on at a time, you fire thousands of rounds in every direction, the vast majority of which hit absolutely nothing.

Your "Facts" are 56 pages of documents (NSA link) that don't support your argument - Do you expect any reasonable person to read the whole lot, or just give up and say you're right and apologise?

You can spray all the facts you want, but if they're not relevant to your argument, then are you really winning? It's a much more subtle version of this:

No seriously. Providing proof of political propaganda, is not helping you win an argument about false flag operations, or world government conspiracies. (By the way, do you even know what a false flag operation is - you seem to confuse it with propaganda) They're simply no more related than cats pushing watermelons out of water. You may THINK that political propaganda is evidence of a world government, but if you're not convincing other people, what's the point?

By the way: an ad hominem attack is an attack on a person to invalidate an argument. For example, if I said that because X was previously convicted of securities fraud, none of his arguments on any topic should be taken seriously any more, that's an ad hominem attack. Saying that your arguments lack logical consistency, that you are a victim of confirmation bias and Dunning Krueger effect (Which incidentally, are two very different psychological biases) is not an ad hominem attack.

I will apologise now. I'm sorry, I'm not going to take any more of your nonsense. It has been amusing, especially the last two days when I had a lot of time, but work is back in full swing. So I'll leave you to wrap your head in tin foil, feel free to tell me and others we've been brainwashed. But you know. On the tiny, tiny chance that you're right, and there is a conspiracy to manipulate me, and restrict my freedoms, I want to quote you The Matrix:

You know, I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realize?

*[Takes a bite of steak]*

Ignorance is bliss.

You see, the system works for me. I enjoy all my freedoms. I don't mind going to work 50 hours a week, doing something that I enjoy 80% of the time, to put me into the top 0.1% (estimated) of the world's income earners. Capitalism gives me the freedom to spend that money as I wish, and democracy helps me feel safe, knowing if even if things don't go my way, they appear to be going the way of my fellow man. As Cypher said: Ignorance is bliss - or maybe it's not ignorance. Maybe I'm a willful part of the system. I'm not a Majestic 12 member, I wasn't invited to the 2011 Bilderberg Group meeting, but maybe I'm part of the system that manipulates the poor and helps keep the other 99% down trodden, and assuaging my guilt by giving away a fair bit of my income... But that's between God and me, nobody else.

 

[nechaus]

haha

 

[mdd0127]

I was PM'd by another member asking me to divulge more information about my life experiences and just exactly who I am and I feel that it would be appropriate to make it public so here it is:

Quote mdd0127:


I already shared my story, publicly.....and my post has been quoted so even though I worried about it all day and went back to edit it, it's there forever. I'm a real person, Amberwolf and a few others here can attest to this, definitely not "psych ops", and have reached all of the conclusions I've reached, not through watching movies, documentaries, and reading other people's writings, but by living life as an American citizen with a 180 iq, multiple skills, total respect for truth, compassion, and honesty, and an insane work ethic. However, since I started with nothing, I have struggled immensely just to survive within our "American Dream"......and despite all of my efforts literally have five dollars to my name and already have my next paycheck spent....on a downhill frame to turn into an e-bike for further testing of some of my ideas!

I have been beaten, stabbed and shot at....for telling people the truth and defending the weak. I have been beaten nearly to death by cops.....for being homeless and knowing/stating my rights......all while seeing people that can't even spell driving Ferrari's and flying around in private jets. Something is terribly wrong in the world that we live in and I'm really afraid that it's too late for change so from now on, I think I just have to live my life with honesty in mind....but I'm going to quit trying to tell people the truth and just have as much fun as I can before the idiots wreck everything.

I had a great conversation with my mother last night. She apologized for going over multiplication flashcards with me when I was six months old and teaching me Mozart. She now realizes...just about the same time that I've started to, that knowing what's wrong and how to fix everything is a terribly huge burden. If I hadn't been treated like I was "special", taking test after test to show just how special I was, maybe I would have a more friends and wouldn't have had to go through two divorces. I feel this huge rage inside almost all of the time because I really do know how to fix most things, whether it's a vehicle, a building, multi million dollar industrial equipment, the human body, relationships, government, etc,... but since most people are scared or intimated by that fact, very few people will even hear me out and the ones that will usually don't have the attention span to let me get my points across.

So yes, I do know for a fact, beyond all doubt, based upon direct personal experience, that our government, or at least quite a few of the highest ranking folks will not hesitate to kill ANYONE to maintain their power. I can't stop them though and I really think that the only thing that will is the natural balancing that happens to any evil, unsustainable thing. When this happens though, there will be very few of us left, and the world isn't going to be a pretty place.

So my new plan is to play dumb and try to turn off that thing inside me that cares about humanity and wants to help everyone! I hope I can find some menial job that will pay me just enough to eat some good mexican food, drink some good wine, and be able to keep a warm place to stay with some music gear int it. I'm thinking that if I stay drunk and distracted enough that I'll be able to vent my rage through music and my creativity through e-bikes and continue to enjoy the little things in life until it all comes crashing down........I'll have a special bottle of wine lined up for that day......

My advice to you is to do the same. Forget about "the system". Enjoy the little things in life. Quit spending your time reading about all of the evil in the world and spend it doing something that makes you smile....and when people complain about what's going on in the world, instead of attempting to inform them, just walk away. If they really cared at all in the first place.....unless they just crawled out from under a rock, they would already know and nothing you can do will change them. :wink:

Take it easy!

Danny





To Sunder,

I have truly enjoyed reading your posts and trying to see the world from your perspective. Since you're " in the top .1%", I'd like to ask you to put your money where your mouth is. All I'm asking for is a few months of the interest that you "earn" for being in your position.

I've been working on designing the ultimate two wheeled electric vehicle for about five years and need about ten million bucks to finish up and optimize the prototype, get everything legal(DOT compliance, patents, etc.) and market it. Most of the hard work is already done but the money thing is really making the last few steps very difficult. In exchange for your contribution, I am prepared to offer you 10% of the llc. If this bike could replace even 1% of the mountain bikes sold and 1% of motorcycles sold, it could easily turn into a billion dollar deal so the incentive that I would guess drives you is definitely there. I have a team ready and waiting to bring the project to the next level, have completed drive train testing and have almost all of the parts necessary to complete the prototype. I can't do it all with no money and no help while also trying to survive though, so I'm reaching out for your help.

One of the project's main investors travels to Austraila frequently and I'm sure he'd love to meet with you....if he's not you that is.....actually been wondering???

I've thought many times about posting everything I've learned and developed into public domain and taking the project open source and in some ways already have, but.....in order to make this bike a reality, it will have to be produced and released in an economy of scale large enough to bring the end cost to consumers down considerably. Only a large capital infusion will make this possible and people don't usually make large capital infusions into things unless there's a potential for profit. This means that making the project a successful one through open source development is an impossibility. So, I need a tiny bit of your money (in the grand scheme of things that is) and some of your financial wizardry and you need to get behind something green, sustainable, and awesome so you can sleep at night. It's a win-win situation!

So there it is. Let's create a new breed of vehicle!

Feel free to PM me for more info! 8)

 

[Sunder]

To Sunder,

I have truly enjoyed reading your posts and trying to see the world from your perspective. Since you're " in the top .1%", I'd like to ask you to put your money where your mouth is. All I'm asking for is a few months of the interest that you "earn" for being in your position.

I think that you may have missed part of the point of that 0.1% - probably because it's embedded somewhere in the last 10 pages... Basically, just living in Australia - a country with transparent democracy and mostly free market capitalism - puts you in the top 5 of the world%, and I know I'm in the top 5% of those 5%, so that's where I figure I am (Just realised that should be more like 0.25%, but whatever). Doesn't mean I have 10m to throw around - That'd be more than my entire investment portfolio, let alone "just a few percent of the interest!" (My investment portfolio is a little under a million... But that really is my point - with what is considered fairly "modest" wealth in the wealth, we are in the top fractions of percentages in the world).

I've never really invested in small caps, I've always backed quality ASX200 companies and invested in properties. I think we're at the wrong time to invest lately, so I've been funneling more of my funds into bonds.

If you became a listed company, I would consider putting a very small portion of my portfolio into speculative stocks, if I saw potential for the adoption of electric vehicles, but at the moment I just don't see it.

So, the short version of the answer is... Sorry, no.

However, if you really believe in your idea, may I suggest venture capital? 10M is a lot - I doubt most VCs would go for it unless you held some very valuable patents, or look like you will get patents approved, but you never know, you might be able to get a small speculative investor willing to take you on.

 

[deVries]

OT: Totally Off Topic

Okay, now you've moved from paranoid territory to delusional territory. Try visiting Palestine, Iraq, many places in Lebanon and Afghanistan wearing an American flag on your t-shirt and tell me Al Queda is a database, and 9/11 was a self inflicted wound to pull people in line.

You weren't directing your comments to me, but let's consider this...

Well, the USA has supported Israel by "looking the other way" while settlements keep being built for decades now & throwing out the Palestinians, which is against the UN resolutions & the Arab world's ability to be at peace with our policy of lip-service & passive neglect. America meddled in Iran in the 1950's, and Iran's influence & occupation moved in on Lebanon vs Israel in the 1980's. Of course, we supported Iraq in their war against Iran in 1980's, so that doesn't help relations either. Afghanistan was always just a backward nation of tribal Muslims with Iranian & Pakistani Pashtuns too. Afghanistan is manipulated mainly by Pakistan where our interests are concerned.

No terrorists were from Iran, Iraq, or Afghanistan on those 911 attacks. Say what? Most 911 terrorists were Saudi citizens with a sprinkling of Egyptian & Pakistani citizens & ? Strange, all those citizens' countries were supposed to be our allies!

Osama Bin Ladin's (OBL) only stated beef was our military remained on the Holy Lands of Mecca after the 1st war with Iraq. That was a sacrilege & a rape of his strict religious ideology in his mind. He warned America in his Fatwa ahead of time he was going to fight in the late 1990's if we didn't leave Saudi Arabia. So, we had first a terrorist attack on American military in Saudi Arabia, then at two Embassies in Africa, then the Warship Cole, holy crap, it's no surprise the Twin Towers TT might be next. Why? Here is the reason from the first TT attack in 1993, which OBL had nothing to do with: "Yousef mailed letters to various New York newspapers just before the attack, in which he claimed he belonged to 'Liberation Army, Fifth Battalion'.
These letters made three demands: an end to all US aid to Israel, an end to US diplomatic relations with Israel, and a demand for a pledge by the United States to end interference "with any of the Middle East countries' interior affairs." He stated that the attack on the World Trade Center would be merely the first of such attacks if his demands were not met. In his letters Yousef admitted that the World Trade Center bombing was an act of terrorism, but this was justified because "the terrorism that Israel practices (which America supports) must be faced with a similar one." So, OBL added these reasons to his cause too in justification for supporting the 911 attacks. OBL was a shrewd Arab politician too, but I think he was really just a religious nut driven by his past opposing the Russians in Afghanistan to seek solutions by warfare.

OBL told the world his strategy in writing was to bankrupt the USA stating he knew our (stupid) leadership would go to war & spend its precious treasure of national wealth to take revenge. "Shock & Awe." Remember? Yeah, right!

I honestly believe with no doubts America has lost these wars with both Iraq & Afghanistan. Why? It was/is a wasted strategy of futility. Our enemy was never Nation-States. WTF. Wars settle nothing unless you can occupy a country long enough to permanently change it. Afghanistan is just an insane joke not even worth debating. It's a total lost cause. Iraq was the balance of power weighted against Iran before 911, but now that power is unbalanced & has shifted to Iran's favor even gaining significant controlling influence inside Iraq too. Sooo, WTF

We're right back where we started, since we could have gotten all the terrorists & their supporters by Special Forces & drones as proven by OBL's death & the others captured or killed. This would have saved Trillions of dollars & thousands of lives. Instead, Nation-State warfare has created the high likelihood that more terrorists will be created than before after we leave, since our warfare & killing of innocents doesn't make for pleasant friendships or memories.

Though our Clinton-Bush leadership did not willfully guide those planes to attack on 911, it can be said we knew the possibility was real & highly probable & would be attempted again & an attack was likely imminent. A valid argument can be made that we were negligent by not preventing it from happening in the first place. Instead of admitting our mistakes & rooting out the mistakes & failures by publicly assigning responsibility with Congressional hearings, we chose to blame the terrorists by engaging them in futile nation-state warfare in one country the terrorists were not even inside on location: Iraq. Again, WTF

Americans do not need a conspiracy to smell the stench of rotten reasoning regarding Iraq. Something is very wrong with our political system to allow such blundering mistakes & open misdirection. It is no conspiracy that the (Anti-)Patriot Act was a piece of legislation laying in wait for a crisis to be passed. It is no conspiracy the Neo-Cons were hoping for a New Pearl Harbor in order to springboard their agenda, which is the concept of preemptive war, and no doubt V.P. Dick Cheney & the Neo-Con agenda green-lighted Bush to go into Iraq. This was open Empire aggression, but Americans don't even keep the Empire loot & booty. :lol: Remember, we were repeatedly told by Bush & his minions Iraq will repay America with war reparations too! :lol:

We will be finding out in the next 1-20 years whether we really did free these countries from their "tyranny within", & whether we are really safe from further attacks from these so called "nation-states" in that whole region of the world. We're delusional no matter what.

 

[mdd0127]

To Sunder,

I have truly enjoyed reading your posts and trying to see the world from your perspective. Since you're " in the top .1%", I'd like to ask you to put your money where your mouth is. All I'm asking for is a few months of the interest that you "earn" for being in your position.

I think that you may have missed part of the point of that 0.1% - probably because it's embedded somewhere in the last 10 pages... Basically, just living in Australia - a country with transparent democracy and mostly free market capitalism - puts you in the top 5 of the world%, and I know I'm in the top 5% of those 5%, so that's where I figure I am (Just realised that should be more like 0.25%, but whatever). Doesn't mean I have 10m to throw around - That'd be more than my entire investment portfolio, let alone "just a few percent of the interest!" (My investment portfolio is a little under a million... But that really is my point - with what is considered fairly "modest" wealth in the wealth, we are in the top fractions of percentages in the world).

I've never really invested in small caps, I've always backed quality ASX200 companies and invested in properties. I think we're at the wrong time to invest lately, so I've been funneling more of my funds into bonds.

If you became a listed company, I would consider putting a very small portion of my portfolio into speculative stocks, if I saw potential for the adoption of electric vehicles, but at the moment I just don't see it.

So, the short version of the answer is... Sorry, no.

However, if you really believe in your idea, may I suggest venture capital? 10M is a lot - I doubt most VCs would go for it unless you held some very valuable patents, or look like you will get patents approved, but you never know, you might be able to get a small speculative investor willing to take you on.

Oh, so you don't really even have any real money....you're a big talking gambler, not a creator of positive things, deserving of wealth....it's all numbers in computers that could disappear at any second, leaving you in debt forever and without a valuable skill to pay that debt with......sorry about that. :wink:

Hope no one ever calls BS and crashes the derivatives market!

I really believe that a total collapse is eminent and totally unavoidable anyway but am "going through the motions" in the meantime, truly hoping that I'm wrong. We never know really. Maybe LENR is real and right around the corner, a supervirus that kills bad natured, stupid, greedy, lazy people will come along and clean the world up, and the people that are left will be able to see what's really important and invest in it appropriately. :lol:

Maybe I should divide that ten percent up into 10 million shares and sell each share for a dollar!!! That sounds awesome!!! .........wait a minute.....could that really work???

I'm just going to build the bike anyway, on my own, guerrilla market the hell out of it, and then tell everyone they can never have one!

 

[Sunder]

Absolutely - All my wealth is ephemeral. Even the physical investment properties are only mine as long as I can collect rent on it, or enforce someone else (like the courts) to. But so is yours. So is Bill Gates, Warren Buffets, and everyone else who uses fiat currency.

And you don't have to be sorry - not yet at least. My skills are valuable in this context. I wouldn't be paid the way I am, if they weren't. But I am aware if the global markets melt, then my skills will not be in demand. However, as I have almost no leverage on my investments, at least I won't be left with debt I can't pay. And if it all goes to hell, then well, hey, my dad owns a house on a 44 acre block. I could learn how to farm!

I am curious though. With $10m, you could buy a series of CNC machines, automation robots, hire the employees to run it, all without a single sale for quite a while. Why do you need so much? Or was it just an arbitrarily high number to bait me?

You could divide your business up into 10 million $1 shares... But unless you had a productive idea, I doubt anyone would buy any.

 

[mdd0127]

The only fiat currency I have right now is the $5 in my pocket and my change jar so if the economy collapsed tomorrow, I'd just plant some seeds and shoot anything that threatened me. :wink: Everything I have is in tools, parts, supplies, guns, ammo, reserve food, and skills and I'm totally OK with that and would live the exact same way if I had a million bucks. I really don't have any interest in being "rich" but I'd like to own a little piece of land someday....in a free country....if there is one???? That's about it. My power comes from the sun, my water comes from the sky, and I'm a food growing guru if I have a place to do so, so having the big bucks is pretty useless to me. If I ever get my company going, once it's rolling and I have my farm, I'm giving the company to the employees and will stay on as a consultant or something.

The $10m was kind of an arbitrary figure but a very realistic one and probably not even enough. I've based that upon research as to what it took to get other similar companies rolling successfully. I've actually done quite a bit of research, beyond the nuts, bolts, and circuits of creating something like this. Since I've been able to accomplish what I have already with so little, I know I could put some bikes on the ground for significantly less but at a small scale of production, I'd have to sell them for $20-30k each to break even, which isn't really the way it needs to go. Electric bikes haven't taken off because there are no exciting ones available at a price most could potentially afford. If I can build these bikes, get videos of people hucking mountains on them, AND offer them for sale for under $5K, the public perception of electrics might change a little. :wink:

Look at what Zero and NuVinci have had to work with and you can get an idea how fast the money goes when attempting something like this. It's really astounding. Luke has provided some decent insight as to what it took to get their most recent battery pack to production.....and that's just a battery pack. So even though I know for a fact that I can put a sick rolling prototype on the ground for maybe $25K, if I can't pay the folks that help me, can't pay lawyers to protect it, can't pay DOT to make it legal, can't market it, and can't get setup for production, there's really no point. If I give the rest of the company away and don't ask for enough in the beginning, it's going to be nearly impossible to get more funding down the road. I told one of my investors recently, "You can't take an official crap in westernized industrial civilization for less than $100k" Since I'm not a professional cost consultant and the parts suppliers don't want to do anything with anyone who won't place giant orders from the get go, all I can do is look at what it took to get other manufacturers up and going. It's a scary amount of money to look at but when you look at the potential market shares that a bike like this could get a piece of, $10M is "pocket change"

I'm not really interested in using CNC to make anything ever again. It's terribly wasteful and time consuming. I think that Additive Layer Sintered Metal 3d printing it really the way to go. No waste, very little labor, rapid production, etc.....but since it's new tech, it's not cheap.

Anyway, if you ever need any farming tips, feel free to get in touch. Seriously!

Sorry for all of the OT but I think we beat the fractional reserve thing completely into the ground anyway. It does irk a little that my whole situation could change drastically if I could convince one banker to just print me some money....like they do for millions of idiotic causes every day....

I'm going to look into this going public thing some more. The system sucks but a ton of people work it......there's no reason I can't right?

 

[ninjamik]

so i agree with a lot of your sentiments mdd.

solar yes!! free in the hands of the people self sufficient and not centralized and paid for... answer me this why have solar panels to sell electricity to the grid....disconnect and get some badass batteries... governments have turned the solar revolution into a cheap and easy way for power companies to get infrastructure...

3d printing is the way forward, I am in the process of building a visible light hi-res thermo- plastic sinter station... and I intend to provide super cheap 3d replication of objects and creations i/or other people design because my printers will be powered for free by the sun!! these are steps toward a better future...

also, the reason I am on this forum i intend when my ebike is completed to travel for free too!, No sunder not an Eco freak hippy, just wish Independence and freedom from the shackles of an outdated control method, i.e the power grid! (yes you could say power freed the world but it is owned by a cabal, and look what happened to (AC powers) inventor (nikola tesla) who tried to give the world power for free, ever read about him in school?????)....no control of the education system though!!!!....

also up the farming I'm a gardener too!!! :wink: :wink: .....a bit of self sufficiency always helps, as the rules to make things easier for monsanto (owns 90% of all GM.) and the other food giants means theres no nutrition left in what you buy at the supermarket, I'm an ex head chef to so love a bit of organic cookery!!!...mmm...

But now speaking of all this brings me to You Sunder, as I have now reached the realisation you are not really worth bothering with as you are the problem! not really just part of it....

I ask you this?...if you don't see the future of EV as you wouldn't invest in it....what are you doing on an EV Forum, do you have an E-bike??? or are you here just to spout shite about subjects like fractional reserve defending it and the actions of Vampiric Bankers.....It is called Usury for a reason, u say velocity of money, we say Users and Use-es....you don't deserve all the money you have....

the rules went way to wrong (they were bad enough before) when investment banks were given the right to start massive racket gambling operations with peoples hard saved cash!!!....they are not playing all these games with their own money are they! no-because even in your fairytale scenario of Bakers and candlestick makers, the bank stars out with 0 coins. but i bet if you kept your story going long enough with a bit more real life simulation (this is why the Randian Algorithms that crashed the system got it wrong in 2008 they didn't include parameters for cheats or greed! they should have been based on that knowing u guys! hahaha) the Banker would end up with Everything with a well illuminated and warm house, eating cakes, with two employees to do his bidding for free!...

i will not even entertain arguing with you now about whether I know the difference between Propaganda, and false flag, (who is Edward Bernaise i ask you, and what is P.R???),,the thing is I consider the two when war is involved, remember 1million in Iraq, Millions more in Vietman DEAD!!!!!!..... so if your government uses either to go and cause the loss of MILLIONS of lives then they want impeaching and throwing in jail,

but there's lots of money to be made in WAR BONDS isn't there Sunder......

Not machine gun,.... Cluster Bomb, it's like that because i needed to answer the plethora of issues involved in the massive clusterfuck we live in caused by selfish greedy twats!!!...

Not sniper rifle,... out dated, slow to return fire, mussel loaded musket, not too accurate at all..... and with very weak ammunition compared to today's weapons...

I think we could look at it like this, we can agree to disagree, as in the fairest individualist manner respecting every ones right to their own truth....

if I am right then I am doing the correct thing for me and my family/loved ones...if you are correct you are also doing whats best for you and yours..

problem is if you are correct and the world is not corrupt at all and the corruption doesn't get in bed with each other..then everyone will be fine so you sitting there in ignorance is fine too..

but if I am correct...which has equal chance no matter what you say...then it is lucky I am doing something about it in my own best way...

i just hope you may get time to read YES the whole 69pages of the document i sent you...I did in not to long either...its called reading things before you comment on them...and I ask you maybe look over some of the things i have said in my clusterbomb and try to approach them in you systematic way ....

I will thank you for one thing as you have cured my cognitive bias, I have come to be a little more less confident in my actions, i admit there is a very small chance i could be wrong..(though very small
and I can recognise the achievements of others, (hence my constant apologies and compliments to you) unlike your adamancy to be correct, even if you do have to change the parameters of your requests for evidence. its easy to change goalposts..... if you dont think a government lying to its public for 45yrs to justify a war or lying before a war to go into it is wrong then i feel sorry for you more than anything...you see although yes it was not a .gov source (it is provably real) the video of McNamara on CNN admitting the gulf of tonkin never happend is ample evidence for me so long as I can check from multiple sources and my own eyes that its real (I am a graphic designer/I.T engineer so use photoshop and Cs5 after effects etc every day) so i know a real episode of the news when i see it...

and just to point out a simple mistake, I have never once said the whole government is totally evil, it just has nefarious controlling hands placed into it, some administrations with more agents in power than the others, that why sometimes hopes for freedom are better, and thats why when obama got in he instantly elected all his wallstreet backers because they bought and paid for him so that is why chances for freedom now are bad!!...and under global governance, whether secret of open, the freedoms and rights of the individual have to be relinquished to yeild to the apparent larger needs of the group as a whole (by that read the needs of the ruling elite and thier wishes!!) so can never work.....thats without researching the exremely suspect motives of the investors in all the UN infrastructure, namely the elite banking and oil powers of the world!...

so just to ask one more time Sunder, what are you a member on here for, do you have solar too? as well as an E-bike? I just thought we should bring the conversation back from mud slinging (i told you it seems bellow all our intelligence levels)....do you charge your E-bike from your solar panels?? (what bonds are good to invest in at the moment? haha also why do you see no future in EV...

I personally see it as the savior...and i dont mean for global warmings sake, i don't believe in it being man made, there is more evidence for the warming of the solar system as a whole and the fact we came out of an ice age 12,000 yrs ago so its been getting warmer and warmer since. neanderthals what they think about how they caused the world to get to the temps of today..or what cretaceous supersize life forms like dinosaurs think of todays puny co2 levels,,,co2 is good for life! just not so much coastal cities and humans... i just think everyone needs to be free from control...and no matter what you say about petro chemicals they are a system of control we are reliant on and it is running out too. so ev will save the world one day, dont tell me it will be hydrogen, because burning hydrogen in internal combustion engines is crap it will be a solar/hydrogen fuel cell electric motor powered world... by the way also invented by that guy they never mention in school or college science, Nikola Tesla....but still no evidence of the multi billion dollar "Trusts" such as Carnagie steel and Ford "foundations" influencing your education system....

so if you do not believe EV has a future then you have proved you have no understanding of the world and have no place on this forum...other than to be a troll on here and a leech in real life mate...

 

[ninjamik]

oh and also mdd. big up to those with shrapnel, i got a 303 slug still sat in my chest...

 

[ninjamik]

and i didn't mean that in a stupid way, i meant big up for surviving i know the pains of lung collapse, los of 90% off your blood even after 3 transfusions and then seeing yourself from the ceiling on an operating table...watching from the outside a doctor break your ribs open to re-inflate your lung!!

at least i know i was heading upwards!! hahahah..

 

[deVries]

OT: Fiat Stock Offering? Anyone interested in investing or starting an eBike business? Mdd0127?

I'm going to look into this going public thing some more. The system sucks but a ton of people work it......there's no reason I can't right?

This is a kind of fiat, you know, issuing stock to fund your project. :wink: You can make your currency-stock worthless by issuing more & more without growth & profits, which dilutes everyone's shares that purchased before, and your operations are certainly unregulated as a private company in this aspect of the business as long as you do the proper paperwork for legal records & filings. So, you want to be part of this fiat system after all? :lol: I know it's hard to escape it. Banks & their fiat are a far safer investment, when proper regulations & enforcement are followed. You are very likely to go bankrupt with your lack of business experience & no significant business peers for investors to understand this market. I don't think you will easily find a private business or angel investors to help you without big-time luck or some fluke of "shared beliefs". Why?

Your problem is you have no "credit history" of running a business successfully or of having a large income working for someone else. Don't take this personally, but you're being delusional & grandiose to think you can convince someone you're capable of running a business without a track record. Just having an awesome product is ridiculous to think anyone will fund you large or small sums of money. Having an awesome prototype & a super high IQ doesn't help much either, because it just shows you can create things but not run a business. It has nothing to do with bankers either. It has to do with the common sense of running a business successfully.

Your monetary & lifestyle philosophy is so radical that you might be able to attract someone that is a millionaire libertarian, or someone wealthy that holds your radical anti-government viewpoints that is also anti-bank & anti-establishment to give you a loan. Where is that John Galt "business club" or "investor" that might fund you? 8)

Phoenix almost certainly has several small business programs called "incubators", but they're funded by taxpayers, universities, or by some foundations, etc. The incubator would be awesome for your situation, since you have no business experience & they help provide that with a place to work too. You can also get business counseling from the SBA either directly or indirectly by referral. There are free business volunteers, usually retired executives, that belong to several business associations that will counsel you on starting & running a business.

Personally, if I were you, I would find another small business to work at that is related to your business project. A bicycle store or custom bike frame builder or electric bike company in your area (or elsewhere) are a perfect fit if you can deal with people to support your project while you work for them paid or as a volunteer to gain access to workspace & tools or can sell at their retail space or to their clients, etc. Best idea, imo.

If you can't do that, then I'm pretty certain you can get a micro-loan to start micro-small & grow from there. It will be very difficult to do, and you would have to sell your eBikes or kits for under $2k -or- less? If you could survive doing that, then you could eventually gain the knowledge, etc. to do your expensive bike project too. This is just a short-term solution that may not work in our present economy. You probably won't survive unless you could increase your sales through the Internet, ebay, or Craig's List, etc.

Last idea is to go to work for someone on ES -or- your local electric vehicle club in Phoenix. Trade your labor for workspace, food, shelter, money, or help them with their project or business while you do your project too. Otherwise, go to work for someone for real money & do your business on the side till you can do it full-time or find that angel investor, etc.

If you think you're going to maintain control of your eBike products by getting venture capital VC, then you're being delusional. You just don't have the background for any investor group like that to trust you with their money. No, you're going to have to be able to work their way with their people supporting you, since you are literally alone in your project. Your chances are zero, imo, unless you can find someone that operates alone too. Convincing one or two decision makers that are also the investors could work, but convincing a VC group is next to impossible. VC people want big money returns for their high-risk investments. Your eBike company can't ever be a stock traded company on the open market with their time scales for success, since there is no demand on that kind of scale anytime near term barring $10+ per gallon of gas. That's the main reason the VC's will shit-can your tiny market for eBikes on their limited time horizon for potential success. There is no IPO in their timezone. It is a tiny private business that might support 10-50 people for many years. IMO.

You might find "a believer" that is rich too. It might take years or decades to do that unless you leverage the Internet or network with electric vehicle people to find that person too. :wink: 8)

 

[ninjamik]

oh and sorry deVries i did not mean in my post about there being no terrorists....that none of the hijackers were from these countries...but if come and blow up the colossium now should italy go to war with the U.K..of course not.. how many of the 1 million men women and children dead in Iraq were terrorists...thats what i meant..i was just getting irrate at sunder because ignorrant selfish people really annoy me...that is why i have come out all guns (cluster bombs) blazing, sorry....

It is the point you made about nation states, your correct no country should ever be invaded because of the actions of its citizens... and yes Osamas' only gripe was that the usa/nato wouldn't leave the holy lands, so thats what i mean by we invent and create the terrorists....as in we provide all the funding and weapons and training because we want to meddle in other countries for oil, then go round acting like twats so end up causing and creating these people with the abilities to attack us....but if we stopped interfering in stuff that is not our business then we would never get attacked!!!

I would like to make my positions on things a little clearer too, I am not anti government, anti bank, or anti society, I am totally 100% anti-corruption..and at the moment we have corrupt banks buying corruption in the government, leading to a corrupt society, I am for your idea of banks loaning as a public service at 0% (my negative interest was just till the bailout got paid back)

I am also up for everyone taking their government back as a tool of the people and not their owner and making this world a bit better place...

then we can all establish the world free power grid so at least give everyone access to the basics, if you can do better than that with your own skills then good on ya...but dont let it get too far you start oppressing everyone else's chances (and taking all their money for your mistakes....)

 

[ninjamik]

and just to talk about the chance of oil going above $10+ a gallon...well if like the way it is heading...USA no longer AAA credit scored. China and russia/japan about to leave the petrodollar for one backed by an international currency...America is looking very likely to be no longer the reserve currency of the world!! (all oil is bought in dollars no matter where you are in the world)..

I know the effects of this (Britain lost reserve currency of the word status in the 70s) my parents only had to work a 4 day week (reflected in wages), all power like tvs lighting stopped at 10pm and Britain became known as "the poop old man of europe"... because until then Sterling was the currency of the world...

also a quick close of 30% of the worlds oil trade by Iran on the strait of hormuz...Backed and protected by China/Russia who will buy irans oil in gold!!!

any of these scenarios or a combination of both would send us oil prices through the roof, the us oil is only 1/3rd the cost to the usa as the rest of the world, and it can always print more dollars.

if it lost reserve currency today all USA oil would go up by 300% overnight..meaning all good cost basically 300% more to deliver to the customer...that is what happened to us..

If the fed prints too many dollars to stabalize your 7 trillion in debt to china econommy this will cause the rest of the world to dump the petrodollar too...it is just a matter of time, this is why America is on a mission to secure all the worlds last oil reserves..

Plus add the fact we have way past peak oil production now so the world can no longer produce what it uses without even including increases in usage and population so it will rise and rise and rise in cost...

sunder should know this, i'm sure he's made a few dollars out of the rise and rise of oil

so i do see a sharp rise in EV technology, people take action when their wallets are hit and they are taking a bigger and bigger hit every day...

and this is also why i back self sufficient solar power, having to connect to the grid to ask someone elses permission to have light and pay them for the pleasure is an out dated concept, a product of the industrial revolution but not applicable to the 21st century... unless it was built with returned stolen money of the world maintained by community volunteers and everyone could access it for free.

 

[wineboyrider]

OT: Totally Off Topic

Okay, now you've moved from paranoid territory to delusional territory. Try visiting Palestine, Iraq, many places in Lebanon and Afghanistan wearing an American flag on your t-shirt and tell me Al Queda is a database, and 9/11 was a self inflicted wound to pull people in line.

You weren't directing your comments to me, but let's consider this...

Well, the USA has supported Israel by "looking the other way" while settlements keep being built for decades now & throwing out the Palestinians, which is against the UN resolutions & the Arab world's ability to be at peace with our policy of lip-service & passive neglect. America meddled in Iran in the 1950's, and Iran's influence & occupation moved in on Lebanon vs Israel in the 1980's. Of course, we supported Iraq in their war against Iran in 1980's, so that doesn't help relations either. Afghanistan was always just a backward nation of tribal Muslims with Iranian & Pakistani Pashtuns too. Afghanistan is manipulated mainly by Pakistan where our interests are concerned.

No terrorists were from Iran, Iraq, or Afghanistan on those 911 attacks. Say what? Most 911 terrorists were Saudi citizens with a sprinkling of Egyptian & Pakistani citizens & ? Strange, all those citizens' countries were supposed to be our allies!

Osama Bin Ladin's (OBL) only stated beef was our military remained on the Holy Lands of Mecca after the 1st war with Iraq. That was a sacrilege & a rape of his strict religious ideology in his mind. He warned America in his Fatwa ahead of time he was going to fight in the late 1990's if we didn't leave Saudi Arabia. So, we had first a terrorist attack on American military in Saudi Arabia, then at two Embassies in Africa, then the Warship Cole, holy crap, it's no surprise the Twin Towers TT might be next. Why? Here is the reason from the first TT attack in 1993, which OBL had nothing to do with: "Yousef mailed letters to various New York newspapers just before the attack, in which he claimed he belonged to 'Liberation Army, Fifth Battalion'.
These letters made three demands: an end to all US aid to Israel, an end to US diplomatic relations with Israel, and a demand for a pledge by the United States to end interference "with any of the Middle East countries' interior affairs." He stated that the attack on the World Trade Center would be merely the first of such attacks if his demands were not met. In his letters Yousef admitted that the World Trade Center bombing was an act of terrorism, but this was justified because "the terrorism that Israel practices (which America supports) must be faced with a similar one." So, OBL added these reasons to his cause too in justification for supporting the 911 attacks. OBL was a shrewd Arab politician too, but I think he was really just a religious nut driven by his past opposing the Russians in Afghanistan to seek solutions by warfare.

OBL told the world his strategy in writing was to bankrupt the USA stating he knew our (stupid) leadership would go to war & spend its precious treasure of national wealth to take revenge. "Shock & Awe." Remember? Yeah, right!

I honestly believe with no doubts America has lost these wars with both Iraq & Afghanistan. Why? It was/is a wasted strategy of futility. Our enemy was never Nation-States. WTF. Wars settle nothing unless you can occupy a country long enough to permanently change it. Afghanistan is just an insane joke not even worth debating. It's a total lost cause. Iraq was the balance of power weighted against Iran before 911, but now that power is unbalanced & has shifted to Iran's favor even gaining significant controlling influence inside Iraq too. Sooo, WTF

We're right back where we started, since we could have gotten all the terrorists & their supporters by Special Forces & drones as proven by OBL's death & the others captured or killed. This would have saved Trillions of dollars & thousands of lives. Instead, Nation-State warfare has created the high likelihood that more terrorists will be created than before after we leave, since our warfare & killing of innocents doesn't make for pleasant friendships or memories.

Though our Clinton-Bush leadership did not willfully guide those planes to attack on 911, it can be said we knew the possibility was real & highly probable & would be attempted again & an attack was likely imminent. A valid argument can be made that we were negligent by not preventing it from happening in the first place. Instead of admitting our mistakes & rooting out the mistakes & failures by publicly assigning responsibility with Congressional hearings, we chose to blame the terrorists by engaging them in futile nation-state warfare in one country the terrorists were not even inside on location: Iraq. Again, WTF

Americans do not need a conspiracy to smell the stench of rotten reasoning regarding Iraq. Something is very wrong with our political system to allow such blundering mistakes & open misdirection. It is no conspiracy that the (Anti-)Patriot Act was a piece of legislation laying in wait for a crisis to be passed. It is no conspiracy the Neo-Cons were hoping for a New Pearl Harbor in order to springboard their agenda, which is the concept of preemptive war, and no doubt V.P. Dick Cheney & the Neo-Con agenda green-lighted Bush to go into Iraq. This was open Empire aggression, but Americans don't even keep the Empire loot & booty. :lol: Remember, we were repeatedly told by Bush & his minions Iraq will repay America with war reparations too! :lol:

We will be finding out in the next 1-20 years whether we really did free these countries from their "tyranny within", & whether we are really safe from further attacks from these so called "nation-states" in that whole region of the world. We're delusional no matter what.

+1- 100% correct. Congratulations you can join Ron Paul's foreign policy team. LMAO. But, be prepared to be called Kooky, nuts, weird and all sorts of other slanderous things for merely speaking the truth. At least you give me some hope that others understand what is really going on. Kudos.

 

[deVries]

I am for your idea of banks loaning as a public service at 0% (my negative interest was just till the bailout got paid back)

I was trying to engage Mdd0127 to reply with a better solution or other ideas, so 0% interest rate is a hypothetical. Another idea is maybe public stockholder Banks should get some kind of base pay & any amounts over that would be limited to how successful they would be in the Bank's finance with producing new businesses that stay in business too. It would have to be a blend of success from small to large size businesses. Then there would have to be some formula for keeping interest rates as low as possible to grow the middle class & elevate the poor. Stock options as payment have to be limited, so these guys don't get paid at huge ratios over their pay levels for their average employees too. This would take-out extreme pyramid greed fiat that never existed before & definitely harms society by diluting everyone's wealth including the public stockholders.

Mdd0127 ? Anyone?

and just to talk about the chance of oil going above $10+ a gallon...well if like the way it is heading...USA no longer AAA credit scored. China and russia/japan about to leave the petrodollar for one backed by an international currency...America is looking very likely to be no longer the reserve currency of the world!! (all oil is bought in dollars no matter where you are in the world).
[...]
also a quick close of 30% of the worlds oil trade by Iran on the strait of hormuz...Backed and protected by China/Russia who will buy irans oil in gold!!!

The Saudi's just dump more oil on the market to make-up for temporary losses & the US dips into its strategic reserves. Everyone else pumps more, so Iran might just be BF'n itself? Of course, the blood suckers in the Futures are allowed to Frack the World over fear.

Too much fear leverage allowed into the system? Maybe need limits on naked longs/shorts with higher margins to clear-out the fear-monger scums! Fracked again by Regan Rand-Greenspan ideology? :x

any of these scenarios or a combination of both would send us oil prices through the roof, the us oil is only 1/3rd the cost to the usa as the rest of the world, and it can always print more dollars.

If Americans only understood we pay $15+ per gallon now in taxes & debt for defending the oil, then we would be into the truth-zones & out of the war-zones! :lol:

and this is also why i back self sufficient solar power, having to connect to the grid to ask someone elses permission to have light and pay them for the pleasure is an out dated concept, a product of the industrial revolution but not applicable to the 21st century... unless it was built with returned stolen money of the world maintained by community volunteers and everyone could access it for free.

:wink:

 

[ninjamik]

well said wineboy, i'm impressed with everything deVries has had to input to this conversation, I thought i may end up being the only kook being harassed by a load of right wing bankers...

haha how obvious is it that an investment Banker (cockney rhyming slang for Wanker would state how usury is only the velocity of money, and that banks deserve the money they make from gambling prodigiously with other peoples money...

In a debate with people like that my Ninja Cluster Bomb technique can be detrimental to my own argument (as to pay dues to him sunder actually pointed that out). what i say is no less true, its just because i get too passionate about the bad that people get away with, as ninjas answer is usually instant death to all enemies! :wink:

mainly because someone new to this subject is not even aware of the interlinking themes and relevance of the things..so foolishly thinks you are telling them that cats push watermelons!!

it is nice then in that situation to have a true accurate sniper rifle on your side! only taking shots every so often but with maximum damage..

but to win a war you do need cluster bombs too!...i will try from now on to keep my passion to a minimum, i just hate injustice and will confront it head on wherever i see it...no matter how big the assailant is!! (i think this is alex jones problem too sometimes)

just maybe a little more calmly next time....

and again....he doesn't really stop producing little gems "maybe the Dutch French and British should have invaded him for all their diamonds and minerals instead of africa!! hehe

yes a public service lending institution is what a bank is supposed to be!! not a parasitic, vampiric entity that drains life blood from the populace..that owns 60% of the world..

To go back a while now (my fault again!) the answer to the socialist shoe problem where no-one had the incentive to say the design was wrong...how about a public pot that rewards service to the community and the greater good....or an honour system but that was voted for and nominated by the people, you get revered then a little like a celebrity but you have done something to deserve it instead of just sing into a microphone or looking into a camera once! and then demanding millions of dollars and the FBI to go collect if anyone doesnt give you your hard earned money....

how about this as an answer to pipa/sopa if you are a musician or an actor, your music goes onto the internet for free, because the internet has one purpose to provide freedom of information communication and entertainment for the good of human kind...if your good, you can then run live concerts or a stage show that you can perform at where people who like you can come see you because they heard you on the internet....this way you can earn your wage like the rest of us and get say $50,000 a year.... what is wrong with that....

we need to rid this world of the ways of making money that are totally overblown....people should stop worshiping celebs and start shouting thief at them in the road....there is always a finite amount of work being done so therefor only a fixed amount of true wealth so if you add in super easy ways for people to make money then the system becomes top loaded pretty damn fast...

c'mon dudes lets fix this place. up the revolution! hehe

 

[ninjamik]

disclaimer: the use of the words sniper rifle, musket, cluster bomb, war and revolution...were not an advocation of violence!! haha

BTW DeVries, i have noticed you have quoted my words of wisdom a couple of times now!! at $1 million dollars a word! (why do you think I write so many and as the English Version of Pipa Sopa was whisked into British law at the change of Parliament in the midst of our general election where we got 2 leaders no-one voted for! haha without a whisper from us sound asleep, queue up politely Brits. I have the Full force of MI5 + 6 & The SERIOUS, organized crime agency to come smash yer doors in!!!.... that's why I always just referred to what you said and didn't use those dangerous pink thingys! :wink: :lol:

 

[deVries]

BTW DeVries, i have noticed you have quoted my words of wisdom a couple of times now!! at $1 million dollars a word! (why do you think I write so many and as the English Version of Pipa Sopa was whisked into British law at the change of Parliament in the midst of our general election where we got 2 leaders no-one voted for! haha without a whisper from us sound asleep, queue up politely Brits. I have the Full force of MI5 + 6 & The SERIOUS, organized crime agency to come smash yer doors in!!!.... that's why I always just referred to what you said and didn't use those dangerous pink thingys! :wink: :lol:

Sorry Wolfmate! I'll have to scream back and edit before you snapshot this evidence, & I wake-up tomorrow M-plugged in an offshore 3x6 account, because I used cluster-frack & mentioned your namesake with the Futures & Fiat thefts. You know I'll have to Matrix-eat the shredded Futures & OTC Derivatives Contracts from the World Trade Center that expired just after 911 and 2008. :lol: :lol: :lol:
It's a matter of survival now. :wink:

You know, I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realize?

*[Takes a bite of steak]*

Ignorance is bliss.

:

 

[deVries]

The Ultimate Form of Fiat... is...

haha also why do you see no future in EV...

I personally see it as the savior...and i dont mean for global warmings sake, i don't believe in it being man made, there is more evidence for the warming of the solar system as a whole and the fact we came out of an ice age 12,000 yrs ago so its been getting warmer and warmer since. neanderthals what they think about how they caused the world to get to the temps of today..or what cretaceous supersize life forms like dinosaurs think of todays puny co2 levels,,,co2 is good for life! just not so much coastal cities and humans... i just think everyone needs to be free from control...and no matter what you say about petro chemicals they are a system of control we are reliant on and it is running out too. so ev will save the world one day, dont tell me it will be hydrogen, because burning hydrogen in internal combustion engines is crap it will be a solar/hydrogen fuel cell electric motor powered world... by the way also invented by that guy they never mention in school or college science, Nikola Tesla....but still no evidence of the multi billion dollar "Trusts" such as Carnagie steel and Ford "foundations" influencing your education system....

Sun Power Direct!

The Aztecs were right... The Sun is God or Ultimate Fiat worth Worshiping!

That's why us EV's don't like the Old Fiat of oil in the ground, & their lease rights to it! We get charged coming & going for Oil Fiat coming from Our National Federal Lands & charged going from the Fear Futures & Stock Option payrolls & finally again at the pump too. These guys own the leverage & this racket stealing our Shared National Wealth from our Federal Lands.

Let them eat cake, and let's go direct to the real God of Fiat.

Sun Power! 8)

Hey, I just invented our new form of currency & fiat: Sun Credits. 8)

Put the Aztec Pyramid w/Eye of the Sun on a $1$ Sun Ray bill. The beams hit the Super Tankers & Oil Rigs & Fed in flames. The New Illuminati ... The All Seeing Eye of the Sun ... We Trust In Sun

Gotta catch some rays, dude'ers 8)

That's $10,000$ Rays for you Wolfninja.
And one CDS Naked Ray for you Wineboy....
Sunder gets all the Naked Oil Futures if he won't come along... We hold all the Sun CDS to inverse any move you make.


(Btw, you know something went wrong when they changed it to Climate Change from Global Warming! :lol:

 

[wineboyrider]

Actually the first form of money comes from the Sumerians were cows and eventually buffalo chips. Hahah.
http://www.webofdebt.com/
Read this book when you get a chance it will totally change the way you look at money forever.
It did me and I got a useless economics degree and a lot of student loan debt and now look at me I am a professional wino!
8) 8)

 

[ninjamik]

haha,yea if you reduce your footprint to gain/buy enough carbon credits (off al gore), you can exchange them for solar/sun credits (off DeVries) in a (reverse- polarity, inverse squared, scalar velocity, helical credit swap!) at 9000% interest!!! hahaha. :wink:
but I don't need to bother buying in to it DeVries, I counted over 200 words in that little pink box, so with the others MI5 will be collecting at 60% of every R.P.I.S.S.V.H.C.S that your system makes. :wink: :lol: hehehehe....

oh for anyone that doesn't know how a reverse-polarity, inverse squared, scalar velocity, helical credit swaps works.. (or just R. piss-takes to us solar bankers) it all starts out with some candlestick maker!......... the cake they can be left to eat can be arranged in this method too!! hahaha

oooh now old wineboys gon an done it hes took us all the way to the start of the empire of the whore!!! right back to babylon her self!!

course mate, sumer invented what we call society today man, with all its means of corruption,with a big zigurat/pyramid at its centre!!!!...we just build em a little bit taller now and are way better at the pimpin and whorin'' hehe....All roads lead to Rome but then the back roads lead from there to BABYLON!!!!!...

 

[ninjamik]

oh and you do know R.PISStakes are totally fair and legal, they are just the velocity of money,...inverse squared a little bit.... :wink: hehehe

 

[ninjamik]

you see its a little like the inverse square law of gravity....the further your money gets away from you, the more money it makes for us!!! :wink: hahaha...

yay! I just got my first watt of power under my name!...took a lot of bloody typing did that!!...how much can i trade that in for dude?? at 9000% obviously hehehe....god Bankers Kill Me.....hahahahaha....

I could do this all day........velocity of Frockin Money I love it......

by the way did you know that robbery is no longer called robbery....it's just negative velocity of money from your hand to someone else's..... :wink: hahahaha.

 

[deVries]

OT: False Flag where ... The government has conducted "false flag operations" directly against citizens resulting in significant deaths in order to achieve a political goal.

Here's my challenge. Find my a government document - hosted on a government site, with some of these admissions you're claiming. Not one or two sentences out of a long document, an actual admission in context. Heck, I can put the official eagle and shield stamp on a document claiming that Obama is actually a girl, white, and a 175 years old emperor penguin in disguise. Photoshop is not that hard. It's not proof if it's not from a reputable source. What will I accept as proof? Not a single sentence talking about unified world government, but an admission that says something like:

The government has conducted "false flag operations" directly against citizens resulting in significant deaths in order to achieve a political goal.
* That the elected representatives of the people are actually controlled by a shadow government
* That any public figure has incontrovertibly been caught in a plot to create a world government, beyond normal, open transnational cooperation (Such as the UN or G8).

Sunder, I enjoy your posts, and you have many insights to share. Keep participating if you can stand it. 8)

Conspiracy theories are interesting to me, and I enjoy your counterpoints to provide proofs. We can only approximate truth based on our abilities to understand, which is also dependent on everyone's understandings in the records too. Of course, he who writes the records or keeps them hidden controls the outcomes of their understandings too. Then there's the compartments to blind the whole, and those that shredded or never wrote to record it. This lends credence to get a variety of informed information especially from "whistle blowers" that were in positions to know that hidden & erased or unrecorded information. Sometimes researchers or informed historians can recover from the archives too, as we know for certain .gov & .mil may only approximate the truth or create the big lie & cover-up or fabricate & counterfeit the truth without the whole picture.

Otherwise, your reality theory may be way off the mark? :wink:

The government has conducted "false flag operations" directly against citizens resulting in significant deaths in order to achieve a political goal.

Here's two possible examples:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

1) [Proposed by the highest ranking in government... no kills... but proves! False Flag potential is real & offered to Presidents as actionable contingencies that seem "insane".] Operation Northwoods was a series of false-flag proposals that originated in 1962 within the United States government, and which the Kennedy administration rejected. [2] The proposals called for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), or other operatives, to commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities and elsewhere. These acts of terrorism were to be blamed on Cuba in order to create public support for a war against that nation, which had recently become communist under Fidel Castro.[3] One part of Operation Northwoods was to "develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington."

Operation Northwoods proposals included hijackings and bombings followed by the introduction of phony evidence that would implicate the Cuban government. It stated:

"The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere."

Several other proposals were included within Operation Northwoods, including real or simulated actions against various U.S. military and civilian targets. The plan was drafted by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, signed by Chairman Lyman Lemnitzer and sent to the Secretary of Defense. Although part of the U.S. government's Cuban Project anti-communist initiative, Operation Northwoods was never officially accepted; it was authored by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, but then rejected by President John F. Kennedy.

2) If history counts, then we could say smallpox was used against Native American "citizens" involving government officials or their influence to achieve the political goal to exterminate innocent American "citizens".

Plenty of history to choose from, Europe & Asia too, but here is one reference made to just one among many uses of smallpox in the Americas.

Smallpox
Dr. John Bartlett filled in for Peter Jahrling of USAMRIID for a segment
devoted to one of the likely potential bioterrorist agents, smallpox.[2] The
use of this agent to intentionally cause human disease dates back to
1754 during the French and Indian War, when infected blankets were
given to Native Americans as a "token of good fortune." The last case of
smallpox occurred in 1977, but official viral stores remain at the CDC and
at Vector in Novosibirsk, Siberia. However, it is suspected that 17
countries harbor stores of this virus. These facts led the World Health
Organization to delay the disposal of their own smallpox isolates.

Jahrling P. Smallpox. Program and abstracts from the 39th ICAAC;
September 26-29, 1999; San Francisco, Calif. Symposium 135.B: New
and Emerging Pathogens III: Bioterrorist Threats: What the Infectious
Diseases Community Should Know (1348).