Full Suspension Leaf Bike 1500W Build

[n00b]

Don't overthink this whole build to the point where you never get it done. If you are starting with a DH bike its already designed for stability at higher speeds. A 24" wheel can be a great option. They are a bit more durable and keep the hub motor a little happier than a larger wheel. A 24" rear with a 26" up front gives you a little bit of free head tube slackening. If you use a modern tapered fork you will get a little more slackening with the external lower headset bearing.

Remember all of it can be changed in the future. Something being less than ideal beats a pile of parts sitting in your workshop any day.

You could chase your mind around in circles all day deciding between 65 and 66 degrees of head angle and someone would show up and try to convince you that modern bikes handle so much better than a a decade old frame and you are back to square one.

I know you want to do it right and optimize everything but its always relative and subjective. Get enough parts together to go ride it and then perfect your design. Suspension travel is adjustable. Fork lengths are adjustable. Hub motors can always be relaced to different wheels.

We all start out chasing some speed number we have in our head but the novelty quickly wears off. My bike will go 50mph and I don't remember the last time I was out of the 30s. Going over 40 on a bicycle never really feels calm and safe in my opinion.

I did 54 yesterday, not even sure if maxed out, but I want it to go slower.
It's violent, have to spin the cranks real fast just to get it to go, and then it's not gentle.
Dropping the chainring size hopefully helps.

 

[GoFastGus]

From now on, I factor in some dense foam and plywood.

Good call! This battery just has shrink wrap, so I'd probably want something more. Covering the battery with some foam is probably where I'll start, and we'll see from there depending on if I stick with a soft sided bag.

 

[GoFastGus]

I did 54 yesterday, not even sure if maxed out, but I want it to go slower.
It's violent, have to spin the cranks real fast just to get it to go, and then it's not gentle.

I've only ever used a twist throttle, never PAS. I could imagine how telling your PAS you want to go 54mph could be unpleasant.

Dropping the chainring size hopefully helps.

A torque sensing bottom bracket is in my future (really just for launch control), so I'll have to play around with chainring to freewheel ratio for optimal performance.

 

[n00b]

I've only ever used a twist throttle, never PAS. I could imagine how telling your PAS you want to go 54mph could be unpleasant.

A torque sensing bottom bracket is in my future (really just for launch control), so I'll have to play around with chainring to freewheel ratio for optimal performance.

It's how much I had to pedal before twisting the throttle makes it go. You really have to wind it up or nothing happens.
There is no pedal assist..hooked up. Either pedal fast, or you get no throttle results. It doesn't catch or something.
The same controller/battery/throttle with a 2K hubmotor is smooth and not as fast.
It might do 41, maybe.
34 into a headwind. That's on an XL frame bike and it handles the speed really good.
It's like a foot longer than some others. That one's getting the fastness. 72v 32A BBS03.
Just gotta change out the hubmotor for the mid drive and switch 2 rotors, I hope.

 

[n00b]

I've only ever used a twist throttle, never PAS. I could imagine how telling your PAS you want to go 54mph could be unpleasant.

A torque sensing bottom bracket is in my future (really just for launch control), so I'll have to play around with chainring to freewheel ratio for optimal performance.

I would recommend against it. I went to set my pedal while on a curb and pedal assist tried to launch me into traffic.
Took that right off.

 

[GoFastGus]

It's how much I had to pedal before twisting the throttle makes it go. You really have to wind it up or nothing happens.
There is no pedal assist..hooked up. Either pedal fast, or you get no throttle results. It doesn't catch or something.
The same controller/battery/throttle with a 2K hubmotor is smooth and not as fast.
It might do 41, maybe.
34 into a headwind. That's on an XL frame bike and it handles the speed really good.
It's like a foot longer than some others. That one's getting the fastness. 72v 32A BBS03.
Just gotta change out the hubmotor for the mid drive and switch 2 rotors, I hope.

Sounds like an interesting build! Do you have a thread for it?

 

[n00b]

Sounds like an interesting build! Do you have a thread for it?

No. Only have 1 build posted here. The Fuji I ripped the motor off of to do this one.
drivetrain and throttle and controller, too. It needs re-fixed up next.
It's going to be 36v and 52-41 starting gear up (down) to 16t top gear on a BBS02 real soon.
Paint's drying on the controller right now. With the throttle attached. This is on 29ers.
I'm not 26-inching anymore.

 

[GoFastGus]

No. Only have 1 build posted here. The Fuji I ripped the motor off of to do this one.
drivetrain and throttle and controller, too. It needs re-fixed up next.
It's going to be 36v and 52-41 starting gear up (down) to 16t top gear on a BBS02 real soon.
Paint's drying on the controller right now. With the throttle attached.

That should be a nice setup! What sort of battery are you running?

 

[n00b]

That should be a nice setup! What sort of battery are you running?

Well, ya know, A Liitokala 36v 25 AH battery. The other one's a Hailong 52v.
That's on that bike. Where the motor went is 72v and 32 Amps on a wider-tired bike.
It only takes up to 2.0" wide tires, though.
1.95 or so. Will not do 2.125.
The Fuji has little skinny tires and caliper brakes. I'm going to make it not go too fast.
Gonna make the other one not go too fast, too.
Probably will involve chain sizing to make it smooth.
Here's the Fuji build:

My latest build

Okay, so I finally figured out how to work my camera after the SD card died on me. This is a..I think 1994 Fuji "Ace" roadbike. It weighed in at 25 lbs, probably not over 60 now.

endless-sphere.com

It has an empty bottom bracket and no back cassette right now.
52v battery still attached, but that's going elsewhere. I'll have it going in a few days. It's a nice bike.
With a big front sprocket I got it up to 37 mph on a 36v battery. Does not get there super-fast.
I'll figure out something to put on there. Probably a 52t, that'd be OK.
It's a road bike.

 

[n00b]

Good call! This battery just has shrink wrap, so I'd probably want something more. Covering the battery with some foam is probably where I'll start, and we'll see from there depending on if I stick with a soft sided bag.

I have ruined a couple batteries. If they jolt into one of the frame bars, it's not good. The foam degraded a good bit after a while.
I would say consider truck inner tube rubber and plywood if you can fit it.

 

[GoFastGus]

RE: chargers:
My two options are these:
Ebay, you can monitor the voltage and current, and you can adjust the current. ~1/3 the price of a Satiator, but you might be getting what you pay for. Some people on ES have good personal experience with these, so I don't want to completely write it off. My biggest issue is the 1-2 month shipping time, I'm not interested in not being able to crank this thing up until May.
High voltage Satiator. This feels like a buy once cry once sort of thing. It would conceivably work for just about every ebike I'd own in the future, which would save me money in the long run. Not to mention more control over charging means longer battery life. Additionally, this is known to be of good quality, which never hurts when dealing with high voltage electronics.

The more I think about it, the more the Satiator seems like a better choice. I've been able to keep costs down on suspension, brakes, and other electronics; the battery and charger feels like the place to splurge. Barring everyone rushing in to tell me that I've stumbled upon the deal of the century with this charger, I think I'm gonna go with the Satiator.

 

[GoFastGus]

Where the motor went is 72v and 32 Amps on a wider-tired bike.

Can BBS03s take 72V?

It only takes up to 2.0" wide tires, though.
1.95 or so. Will not do 2.125.
The Fuji has little skinny tires and caliper brakes. I'm going to make it not go too fast.

I don't think the tire size or the rim brakes are what hold this bike back. With good wheels and tires, you can go pretty fast and put a lot of thermal energy into a wheel before the bead blows off. Someone in your thread mentioned using this bike on downhill mountain runs.

With a big front sprocket I got it up to 37 mph on a 36v battery. Does not get there super-fast.
I'll figure out something to put on there. Probably a 52t, that'd be OK.

Are you considering playing with cassette gearing too? For a mid drive, I could imagine that being really important to making your setup feel comfortable at the speeds you regularly go at.

 

[n00b]

Can BBS03s take 72V?

I don't think the tire size or the rim brakes are what hold this bike back. With good wheels and tires, you can go pretty fast and put a lot of thermal energy into a wheel before the bead blows off. Someone in your thread mentioned using this bike on downhill mountain runs.

Are you considering playing with cassette gearing too? For a mid drive, I could imagine that being really important to making your setup feel comfortable at the speeds you regularly go at.

I'm decades past considering.
Have done some experimenting with some successes, and some failures, too.
Well, we'll see if BBS03 can take 72v after these new sprockets come.
I mean it can, I could get out and crank it up to use the throttle and fly down the road right now.
It's not nice, I gotta sprint in the 1st gear to get it to go at all.
And then ya gotta ease on the throttle and ..tbh, it's terrifyingly fast for a bicycle.
Full disclosure, the starting gear ratio is/was 58:41.
This is the fast one. Pic is with a 48t dished Gustavo on it.
Battery is 9.5" long and 5.5" square. Has foam and plywood packing-taped to the bottom and back.
Hopefully will prevent damage if it ever slams into the seatstay.
Not sure if would fit in your triangle. You wouldn't want one of these junky batteries anyway probably.

 

[Zambam]

RE: chargers:
My two options are these:
Ebay, you can monitor the voltage and current, and you can adjust the current. ~1/3 the price of a Satiator, but you might be getting what you pay for. Some people on ES have good personal experience with these, so I don't want to completely write it off. My biggest issue is the 1-2 month shipping time, I'm not interested in not being able to crank this thing up until May.
High voltage Satiator. This feels like a buy once cry once sort of thing. It would conceivably work for just about every ebike I'd own in the future, which would save me money in the long run. Not to mention more control over charging means longer battery life. Additionally, this is known to be of good quality, which never hurts when dealing with high voltage electronics.

The more I think about it, the more the Satiator seems like a better choice. I've been able to keep costs down on suspension, brakes, and other electronics; the battery and charger feels like the place to splurge. Barring everyone rushing in to tell me that I've stumbled upon the deal of the century with this charger, I think I'm gonna go with the Satiator.

Not sure if this is the same charger. Shipping is much faster.

Does the Satiator have a lifetime warranty? For that kind of money, I'd expect one and would not buy if it didn't. I have read about them bricking.

Any idea what your build's total cost will be in parts?

 

[Apartunis]

Does the Satiator have a lifetime warranty? For that kind of money, I'd expect one and would not buy if it didn't. I have read about them bricking.

Maybe if you fiddle with programming and settings, you can find a problem. But I do not, and my Satiator has outlasted all the plugs it charges with. I can not say that for any other charger I have used.

I got mine in trade and probably would not have decided to pay the cost, but it has been more than worth whatever the original owner paid.

 

[GoFastGus]

Not sure if this is the same charger. Shipping is much faster.

Might as well be, they're all using the same photos. I saw your posts in this 72V charger thread, you've had a good experience with this sort of charger? I saw discussion of adding a potentiometer to the voltage circuit, but no talk of it actually being done. Have you heard anything about that?

Does the Satiator have a lifetime warranty? For that kind of money, I'd expect one and would not buy if it didn't. I have read about them bricking.

https://ebikes.ca/about-us/warranty.html

3 year warranty, have to troubleshoot with them first, they clearly support right to repair. To be fair, that's more than what a lot of other programmable 360W power supplies offer at that price point.

Any idea what your build's total cost will be in parts?

My original goal was $2500, but scope creep is getting to me and it's gonna be closer to $3500. This build started out conceptually as 52V, 50-75A, 4 or 5T hub motor, 26" wheel. That would get me roughly the same top speed as my previous build, but with more acceleration and more stability. Without a CA, a TSBB, or a Satiator, it would be about $2500.
After I measured out my frame and looked at the available batteries, I could either go with a 52V40A battery, or a 72V100A battery for ~50% more. I knew if I went with the first one, I'd be getting something better or adding on LiPo batteries pretty quick after. So I decided to go with the second one, and while I'm at it get the more expensive 150A controller, CA, and probably the Satiator too. That gets me to right about $3500. If I get the TSBB and convert to DOT rims and tires, I'll be knocking on $4k's door.

 

[n00b]

Might as well be, they're all using the same photos. I saw your posts in this 72V charger thread, you've had a good experience with this sort of charger? I saw discussion of adding a potentiometer to the voltage circuit, but no talk of it actually being done. Have you heard anything about that?

https://ebikes.ca/about-us/warranty.html

3 year warranty, have to troubleshoot with them first, they clearly support right to repair. To be fair, that's more than what a lot of other programmable 360W power supplies offer at that price point.

My original goal was $2500, but scope creep is getting to me and it's gonna be closer to $3500. This build started out conceptually as 52V, 50-75A, 4 or 5T hub motor, 26" wheel. That would get me roughly the same top speed as my previous build, but with more acceleration and more stability. Without a CA, a TSBB, or a Satiator, it would be about $2500.
After I measured out my frame and looked at the available batteries, I could either go with a 52V40A battery, or a 72V100A battery for ~50% more. I knew if I went with the first one, I'd be getting something better or adding on LiPo batteries pretty quick after. So I decided to go with the second one, and while I'm at it get the more expensive 150A controller, CA, and probably the Satiator too. That gets me to right about $3500. If I get the TSBB and convert to DOT rims and tires, I'll be knocking on $4k's door.

That triangle isn't that big. 1st thing I look at on something to e-bike is triangle size.
2nd is make sure it's not a total turd. Try to find a better-type bike. You did that.

 

[GoFastGus]

That triangle isn't that big. 1st thing I look at on something to e-bike is triangle size.

Valid critique, and it's my biggest criticism about this build as well. That being said this was the one of the biggest frames I could find at the time that takes a dual crown fork. I found a 1" bigger Stinky frame on Pinkbike for $200 more, including a Chris King headset. I didn't get that one, which sometimes I grumble about. Wouldn't have given me that many more battery options though.

2nd is make sure it's not a total turd. Try to find a better-type bike. You did that.

Thanks for the vote of confidence! We'll see if it stays that way for long.

 

[Zambam]

Might as well be, they're all using the same photos. I saw your posts in this 72V charger thread, you've had a good experience with this sort of charger? I saw discussion of adding a potentiometer to the voltage circuit, but no talk of it actually being done. Have you heard anything about that?

I've only used the red charger twice. It worked fine on my moped's 22S2P LFP pack even though its output voltage (84) is not what's needed (80.3). I manually shut it off before it pass 80.3V (it's slow near the end so lot's of time). Next time I will use a timer in case I forget. There's a trimpot inside which I fiddled with. Unfortunately it does not vary the voltage. I have not investigated further.

My other charger, the black 5A one is trimpot adjusted to the correct 80.3V so I use that if I'm not in a hurry.

Good luck on your build! I'll be following.

 

[n00b]

Valid critique, and it's my biggest criticism about this build as well. That being said this was the one of the biggest frames I could find at the time that takes a dual crown fork. I found a 1" bigger Stinky frame on Pinkbike for $200 more, including a Chris King headset. I didn't get that one, which sometimes I grumble about. Wouldn't have given me that many more battery options though.

Thanks for the vote of confidence! We'll see if it stays that way for long.

I hope you rock it!
I have regretted doing small triangle bikes.
About to turn that one into a woods runner.
Take the BBS03 off, put it on XL bike, that one gets TSDZ8 and baboompa boompa tires.
Much smaller chainring..Gotta switch rotors, too.

 

[GoFastGus]

I've only used the red charger twice. It worked fine on my moped's 22S2P LFP pack even though its output voltage (84) is not what's needed (80.3). I manually shut it off before it pass 80.3V (it's slow near the end so lot's of time). Next time I will use a timer in case I forget. There's a trimpot inside which I fiddled with. Unfortunately it does not vary the voltage. I have not investigated further.
My other charger, the black 5A one is trimpot adjusted to the correct 80.3V so I use that if I'm not in a hurry.

Good to know! Probably gonna end up going the Satiator route then. Thanks for the support!

 

[99t4]

Side note about connectors: The XT90 that came with this battery is gonna get replaced by two ring crimps. I'm not sure how the waterproofing is gonna work out, but I'll figure that out down the line.

Suggesting you keep the XT90 on the battery discharge leads. Buy an XT90 male end with pigtails attached and crimp (correctly!) on some ring connectors to the free ends. Connect (screw) that to the controller. Then you maintain a (precharge) quick-connect/disconnect battery to controller-- a very handy feature.

I sure wouldn't want to have to deal with screw connections each time I wanted to connect or disconnect my battery. Too bunglesome, too dangerous.

 

[GoFastGus]

Suggesting you keep the XT90 on the battery discharge leads. Buy an XT90 male end with pigtails attached and crimp (correctly!) on some ring connectors to the free ends. Connect (screw) that to the controller. Then you maintain a (precharge) quick-connect/disconnect battery to controller-- a very handy feature.

Yeah upon reflection this is probably the wiser thing to do. Amazon sells XT90 connectors pretty cheap and they'll probably work fine while I'm getting this bike started up, but I think Anderson SB175s are gonna be the long term solution. Good advice, thanks!

 

[Apartunis]

but I think Anderson SB175s are gonna be the long term solution.

Those are huge. I had to use a forklift that plugged in with those in ancient days, but I would not consider using them on any e-bike short of a full sized motorcycle. XT150 connectors would do that job without adding a sandwich sized tumor that fights you to plug or unplug it.

 

[GoFastGus]

Those are huge. I had to use a forklift that plugged in with those in ancient days, but I would not consider using them on any e-bike short of a full sized motorcycle. XT150 connectors would do that job without adding a sandwich sized tumor that fights you to plug or unplug it.

Yeah, the smallest size I can find is 4AWG, and my discharge wires are 8AWG. Thanks for the rec on XT150 connectors! The ones on Amazon say 70-150A, so that will probably work for me.