GNG, 1000W 48V BB-drive, $400

comradegerry said:
Great work Lightning Rods, the kit you are offering looks like it will rock. :D

Now, who was it that said "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" ?

An ancient expression that I believe you have just proved wrong.

Looking forward to seeing the real world tests; this has just moved from "want" to "need" on my wish list!
Click to expand...

It's not that difficult, Comradegerry. I'll tell you my secret:

"Start over and use silk."

:D

SilkPurse.JPG
 
Whiplash said:
Hey mike just to get on the list, I have two buyers for the whole treatment with the new belt etc. Sheets, belt, pulleys, etc. They both want to run their kits at 2000+ watts do you see a problem with this at 12s LiPo? The sooner the better! Cash burning holes in their pockets!

I finished my younger brothers bike and he used a Lyen 9 fet pulling peaks of over 2500 watts only as a test with the stock parts and they were sold! Lol that little motor has got balls! Lol!
Click to expand...

Hey Whiplash-

I'm ready to start taking orders for the complete kit. Everything is designed and ready to be machined. Now it's just paying for goods, materials and machining. I took out a business credit line to move this forward but of course would prefer not to get in too deep floating the whole boat. The big issue is getting the standard sized motors from China. I need to buy 20 minimum to even get on their radar. I also need to source the ISIS BBs from Cyclone which is 10 units to get the price Paco quoted me. Anyone wanting a complete kit please PM me and provide an e-mail address along with what your needs are. Even if you have written me in the past and said you want one "when they are ready" please check in again. Most of my PMs are just people wanting to chat and the non-paid pending orders get lost.

12s will put your nominal voltage between 44 and 48 volts. So you're looking at a 40 amp draw to get close to 2kw. I think I'm going to build my own bike to 66v and 40 amps max. The Infineon controller I bought from Grin Technologies is good for 72v 40a. I'd love that much power but don't want to carry that much battery. At least not at first. :mrgreen:

I don't see any way that a 25mm wide GT2 belt is going to have problems with <3kw. If there is a problem it will be my fault, not the belt technology, and I'll make it right.

Thanks for your faith in me-
Mike
 
Just finished my first ride with the new GNG 1.1 jackshaft and LightingRods' adjustable sheets at 3400w. Everything is much more solid with this style of jackshaft, and I'm no longer dropping my chain on every other jump. My original GNG 1.0 cast jackshaft would move around and eventually cracked from too much stress.

LightiningRods' adjustable sheets combined with a chain drive and cyclone DH ISIS bottom bracket is the ultimate combo for running high power through this motor and keeping the pedals.

Ask Paco at cyclone-tw to send steel sprockets, his aluminum ones wear down too quickly. It is also important to use stronger BMX chain to prevent premature chain stretch and sprocket wear.

It would be great if you could offer the parts individually for people who want to upgrade their existing kits.



 
Lightningrods,
I have gone through 5 belts in 1 summer, flat riding on ashphalt mostly, with winter coming I need a project so converting my GNG mid drive belt system the wider size would be great
I will keep following
Thanks
 
For those who are unsure of the apparent torque-holding ability of the new belt system (based on the disappointing performance of the stock belts), there are three reasons they are stronger.

A. Clearly the new belt is wider.

B. The massive reduction on the chain side (as a result of swapping the freewheel to the large driven-pulley), allows the small drive-pulley to be larger, so...more teeth on the small drive-pulley are engaged.

C. The GT teeth are stronger than the HTD teeth.
 
bee said:
Just finished my first ride with the new GNG 1.1 jackshaft and LightingRods' adjustable sheets at 3400w. Everything is much more solid with this style of jackshaft, and I'm no longer dropping my chain on every other jump. My original GNG 1.0 cast jackshaft would move around and eventually cracked from too much stress.

LightiningRods' adjustable sheets combined with a chain drive and cyclone DH ISIS bottom bracket is the ultimate combo for running high power through this motor and keeping the pedals.

Ask Paco at cyclone-tw to send steel sprockets, his aluminum ones wear down too quickly. It is also important to use stronger BMX chain to prevent premature chain stretch and sprocket wear.

It would be great if you could offer the parts individually for people who want to upgrade their existing kits.
Click to expand...

Hey Bee-

I'm glad to hear that you're having good luck with the adjustable sheets. I'll be honest, I figured if someone was going to find the weak spots in them it would be you! You're such a mad overvolter I was nervous when you ordered a set. I'm glad they're holding up. Stronger than the GNG butter for sure.

Paco is a good guy and seems pretty agreeable to selling pieces (unlike Jon at GNG). I think we can get whatever we want from him. I've been writing him working on deals on his ISIS BBs and other parts. At the very least I'll be able to save people some money on shipping and handling.
 
pollux said:
Lightningrods,
I have gone through 5 belts in 1 summer, flat riding on ashphalt mostly, with winter coming I need a project so converting my GNG mid drive belt system the wider size would be great
I will keep following
Thanks
Click to expand...

The 25mm belt conversion is worthwhile for sure, but will only take about 30 minutes to an hour to do. You're going to have lots of winter left. :D

I finally called the Gates distributor and got a price on this type and size of belt. It's $40 with shipping if I order 10 at a time. Not cheap but it will be worth it if they last for a year or more as they should. I don't know about you but when something keeps breaking it's not the expense, it's the inconvenience and aggravation. I'd pay the same amount or more just to have something that works.
 
spinningmagnets said:
For those who are unsure of the apparent torque-holding ability of the new belt system (based on the disappointing performance of the stock belts), there are three reasons they are stronger.

A. Clearly the new belt is wider.

B. The massive reduction on the chain side (as a result of swapping the freewheel to the large driven-pulley), allows the small drive-pulley to be larger, so...more teeth on the small drive-pulley are engaged.

C. The larger diameter drive-pulley is "just" large enough to allow a larger tooth, (GT-8mm instead of the shallower HTD-5mm)
Click to expand...

Plus one more important thing: The GNG driver was never a properly designed HTD pulley to begin with. They manufactured that 'pulley' by drilling round holes in the end of a cylinder. In order to do it properly a mill bit with the correct belt tooth profile has to cut the grooves in the round stock laterally, not boring in from the end. The end result was a router bit that did more to chew the belt up than to engage with it. Going after the faux pulley with some tool meant to dull the edges reduces the cutting ability but does nothing to correct the bad tooth profile. If GNG had used a proper 15mm HTD pulley with 18 teeth it probably would have been adequate and I would not have gone to all of this trouble.
 
Denisesewa said:
A bit off the current topic but --
I've been building a camper trailer ( Including the frame) for the past two weeks and needed some relief from burnout on that project, so , this morning I pulled out my Maverick ML7 , its the only full suspension bike I have , and started building it up , got it to the running stage and had a good test ride , mocked up the battery box ( jury is still out on the looks of it) and am now pondering how to secure the motor, this is a floating BB bike and there is a spud on the BB shell which I can use to secure a torque arm.
Anyone else build a GNG using a floating BB frame ? I looked through the builds and didnt see any , so, I do have an Idea but always like to hear how others handle things.
Here is where I'm at after about 3 hours >>





Click to expand...

Yes Denisesewa, I am building a GNG mountain bike with a floating bottom bracket. I had to build a mount and strap it to the frame, so I wouldn't tear apart my floating bottom bracket and destroy my linkages and shock.
I will send pictures after I take them tomorrow.
DHFreeRide
 
Hey Lightning rods, I'll take one of your new belt kits. Should this bolt on fine to a DH comp? just let me know where and when to send money.

Thanks.... excited...
 
I can make pulleys as needed but I have to order the GT2 belts from Gates. They are $40 if I buy them in lots of 10. I've ordered one belt to double check my dimensions before I start ordering multiples of ten. I'm happy to source belts for people who want pulley sets. I don't mark up the Gates price. It's high enough!

I'm PMing this request.
 
LightningRods said:
I can make pulleys as needed but I have to order the GT2 belts from Gates. They are $40 if I buy them in lots of 10. I've ordered one belt to double check my dimensions before I start ordering multiples of ten. I'm happy to source belts for people who want pulley sets. I don't mark up the Gates price. It's high enough!

I'm PMing this request.
Click to expand...

What are the belt dimensions, and are there alternatives like the Goodyear belt people have been using to replace the OE GNG belt?
 
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DHFreeRide said:
Denisesewa said:
A bit off the current topic but --
I've been building a camper trailer ( Including the frame) for the past two weeks and needed some relief from burnout on that project, so , this morning I pulled out my Maverick ML7 , its the only full suspension bike I have , and started building it up , got it to the running stage and had a good test ride , mocked up the battery box ( jury is still out on the looks of it) and am now pondering how to secure the motor, this is a floating BB bike and there is a spud on the BB shell which I can use to secure a torque arm.
Anyone else build a GNG using a floating BB frame ? I looked through the builds and didnt see any , so, I do have an Idea but always like to hear how others handle things.
Here is where I'm at after about 3 hours >>





Click to expand...

Yes Denisesewa, I am building a GNG mountain bike with a floating bottom bracket. I had to build a mount and strap it to the frame, so I wouldn't tear apart my floating bottom bracket and destroy my linkages and shock.
I will send pictures after I take them tomorrow.
DHFreeRide
Click to expand...

I finally took the pictures of my floating bb mount on my Mongoose Khyber. From what I hear, GT licensed their GT I Drive patent to a couple of MTB manufactures, and the Mongoose Khyber is based off this GT I Drive. It climbs great and the ride is really plush. The Khyber is my favorite bike so this is why I have invested a lot of time making a provision for my GNG to mount to it. I will not be doing any down hill or all mountain riding with the GNG on the Khyber because my bike is made from hydroform aluminum tubing for light weight and strength, but is not designed for my mount...just going to the beach, and riding hard pack trails. I formed a half tube mount which is the same contour of my hydroformed down tube. I cut off a down tube from a bike I had in the garage and welded it to my mount. I wrapped silicon turbo hose around my Khyber so that I don't pinch or deform my frame when I tighten the turbo T-bolt clamps and hose clamps, the hose also helps to distribute the clamping pressure. I will make an anti-torque mount so the mount doesn't rotate. If you have a standard tube frame/not hydroformed, then you can just mount it directly to the frame with out any silicon hose. This is my first time attaching pictures, so I hope they upload correctly...and hope this helps.
 

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I ended up using the spud on the BB linkage to mount a torque arm, after several jumps big enough to almost bottom the rear suspension I am satisfied this will be reliable , also sewed up a battery box cover from convertable top material and swapped the forks to a set of Boxxers , XO shifter setup 3 speed and shimano Saint brakes, I'll call this one done. :)



 
skyungjae said:
What are the belt dimensions, and are there alternatives like the Goodyear belt people have been using to replace the OE GNG belt?
Click to expand...

It's a GT 5mm pitch, 25mm width, 535mm length. That works out to 107 teeth. Yeah, if you can find a cheaper belt source please let me know. I'm just adding them to the package as a convenience for people.
 
Forum member "Wishes" was good enough to send me his discarded chain parts from his 60v chain drive GNG. After taking a look at these parts I can see why they didn't work very well. It's the chain version of the belt drive.

For starters, just like the belt drive had too few teeth, so does the chain drive. The driver is tiny and incredibly flimsy looking.

GNG_Driver2.jpg


The quality 219 driver in this photo has a sprocket that is 4.2mm thick. The GNG sprocket is 2.6mm thick

GNG_Driver.jpg


The theme of poor quality continues on the driven sprocket. The 219 driven sprockets that I use are 4.1mm thick. The GNG driven is 3.6mm. Not as bad as the driver, but still thin.

The quality of the GNG chain is also poor.

I'm going to use Wishes chain drive parts to make GT2 belt and proper 219 chain adapters for these 60v kits. Looking at it real quick it looks like my large driven pulley and 219 adapter plate will bolt right up.
 
I revved my #219 1.1 kit a few times at 60v when I first got it and I think it's just loud because of the large metal chain banging on the metal idler. The stock setup would sound awful at a higher voltage simply because of the metal chattering.

I've had very little problems with my #25 primary reduction, I think it's a great compact option for most people and the smaller chain seems to naturally be quieter.

Currently I feel like I get more noise from the motor RPMs than I do from the primary chain, I will have to make a video with the various chains removed to confirm.

Here's a quick comparison with a Crystalyte hub:
[youtube]_HS44P5CkAY[/youtube]

Here's a video of the 1.1 motor revving at 60v:
[youtube]afncRF3qTN0[/youtube]
 
bee said:
I revved my #219 1.1 kit a few times at 60v when I first got it and I think it's just loud because of the large metal chain banging on the metal idler. The stock setup would sound awful at a higher voltage simply because of the metal chattering.
Click to expand...

Thin sprockets are louder than thicker ones. Spinningmagnets says it's because the thin metal rings like a bell and the thicker metal is acoustically deader. For sure skinny little sprockets are going to wear out the roller chain and themselves much faster.
 
I looked at the online belt links posted and didn't see any GT belts. I may have stepped in a trap by going for the "ultimate" belt that has the highest power rating. GT belts are good for twice what an HTD of the same size is. The unfortunate thing is that you can run GT belt on HTD pulleys (with a loss of power capacity) but HTD belts really don't fit GT pulleys. The GT belt tooth has a low, square shoulder while the HTD is rounded.

GT2-HTD.jpg


If these belts last a year or more as they should, $40 is not going to be a big deal. Get them for the best price you can but be sure to get a PowerGrip GT compatible belt. Getting the wrong belt and going back to having problems is false economy.
 
LightningRods said:
I looked at the online belt links posted and didn't see any GT belts. I may have stepped in a trap by going for the "ultimate" belt that has the highest power rating. GT belts are good for twice what an HTD of the same size is. The unfortunate thing is that you can run GT belt on HTD pulleys (with a loss of power capacity) but HTD belts really don't fit GT pulleys. The GT belt tooth has a low, square shoulder while the HTD is rounded.

GT2-HTD.jpg


If these belts last a year or more as they should, $40 is not going to be a big deal. Get them for the best price you can but be sure to get a PowerGrip GT compatible belt. Getting the wrong belt and going back to having problems is false economy.
Click to expand...

http://www.royalsupply.com/store/pc...-Belt-5M-92705740-1032p16825.htm#.UnQxofl4xis

Is that the same belt you'll be getting?
 
LightningRods said:
skyungjae said:
http://www.royalsupply.com/store/pc...-Belt-5M-92705740-1032p16825.htm#.UnQxofl4xis

Is that the same belt you'll be getting?
Click to expand...

From the reading I've done the PolyChain GT is different than the PowerGrip GT. It's like they are trying to make it confusing. Exactly the profile I worked with is PowerGrip GT. The price on this PolyChain GT belt you found is basically the same so it doesn't much matter. The premium belts cost more. Go figure.
Click to expand...

http://www.royalsupply.com/store/pc...Belt-5MR-93908107-1037p17468.htm#.UnSHhPl4xis

Wow, it is rather confusing. Here's a PowerGrip GT2 belt for $18.69 before shipping. Is that the same belt or is there a difference between PowerGrip GT and PowerGrip GT2. :lol:
 
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