* * * Group Battery Purchase * * *

[EMF]

WTF

 

[safe]

I don't think Patrick is involved in anything 40138 related.

Read the first post. :lol:

Yeah well the first post was actually mine. It was only after I started with the idea of getting people together for the 40138's that Patrick got into it and mentioned his deal on the Thundersky's.

We can be open to WHATEVER is available.

If Patrick has a deal on something... great.

If some other deal shows up... great.

The idea is that as a group we could potentially have more leverage than as individuals because we could buy more volume.

Concept: "Group Purchase"

(details to be worked out later)

 

[Deepkimchi]

Adjust your retalin dosage upwards.

 

[safe]

Adjust your retalin dosage upwards.

Ooops! My mistake...

I had completely forgotten about the 40138's Patrick has at $30 each. Sorry.

So Patrick has two deals out there:

Thundersky - 40ah - $80

40138 - 10ah - $30

...not to mention the PingBattery issue. (another potential place for deals)

 

[Patrick]

OK,

I've been gone for a bit. Here is the skinny:

I put some post out there that I was offering to extend to a member of this group some volume discount pricing on some 40138 cells. They had not been ordered at that time. Safe got all excited (I'll spare you the puns), and thought about a group buy; he was under the impression this was for at least 100 cells. Not the case, I offered the deal ($30/cell) at 30 cells minimum. This just to separate the wheat from the chaff, as it's a real pain to do this kind of deal. Prices are FOB San Francisco. Several people expressed an interest, and the order has been placed (on CNY!). I don't know what's going on with Chinese New Year, won't expect any details for a week or two.

There are also some ThunderSky cells. A truckload (metaphorically) in LFP 40 and 90 Ah. I expect all the 90s will go into motorcycles, but speak up if you want some. The 40s are unspoken for currently; they might go into Prius Plug-In conversions (80 cells a pop). These are in San Francisco now; delivered in September. $2/Ah FOB SF. Note that ThunderSky has signed an exclusive deal with International Battery for US distribution - they are selling them for $3.25/Ah, no warranty, and claiming 20-40% failure rate (at least I read that a few weeks ago somewhere, may not be true). We have had no problems. And Safe - just so you know - we can charge the 90s at 270 amps (takes a 240V feed).

So that's where it's at. I'm just hooked up, and thought I'd try to do a favor for those willing on this board. Pay in advance, no warranty, deal with honor. I'm not trying to sell anything, simply offering a deal, may not be repeated. Wanted to clear things up, and I'll be in touch with those who are in touch with me.

Patrick

 

[kyakdiver]

I know it's a goofy question but.............. what the heck is FOB?

 

[Patrick]

Sorry.

FOB is an acronym for Free On Board. In some places, it's called "ex works". In other words, you pay shipping from San Francisco, rather than China (or Taiwan).

 

[Link]

The hell? Every time I've heard it, it means "fresh off boat".

 

[Patrick]

Well, I believe the etiology goes back to the 19th century - I'm guessing Link is a little younger than I am. It means that you will take it free to the ship/train (Free On Board) that will carry it to the destination, but that the buyer will pay the shipping/freight/insurance/offloading from there. Perhaps Fresh Off Boat has some other connotation, or is just used by people who don't know any better. You can check Wikipedia.

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

Fall Out Boy
Fat Over Bush
Fresh Off the Border
& apropos of safe
Full Of Beans/Baloney and/or Beer.

Yep, we're old foagies.
I hadn't realized gen Y had taken the acronym to new & weird places til Hyrule brought it up.

My first job straight out of school where you were required to wear a dress suit in order to get it dirty doing field service work (emulating the IBM practice), I once wore a tweed sport jacket instead.
Becuz of my fashion choice my boss had called me fresh off the boat, behind my back I might add, had to hear it from a felllow tech.
I was never quite sure what he meant by that until today, I now realize I've been insulted.
Thanx for stirring up painful memories.

:lol:





http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=F.O.B.

Fresh Off the Board. originally referred to Chinese immagirants (in olden days, and even now, chinese took boats to come to north america, hence the boat) These are people who can't properly speak english and stick to their country's way of fashion mostly. But no longer is refered only to asians, its refered to all races (chinese, persians etc.) Most of the times though it is not used in a personal way to degrade people, just as a joke.

 

[Ypedal]

I always thought it was " Freight On Board " ...

 

[safe]

These are in San Francisco now; delivered in September. $2/Ah FOB SF. Note that ThunderSky has signed an exclusive deal with International Battery for US distribution - they are selling them for $3.25/Ah, no warranty, and claiming 20-40% failure rate (at least I read that a few weeks ago somewhere, may not be true). We have had no problems.

I wonder if the 20-40% failure rate is as a result of improper usage?

At first I accepted the media hype that LiFePO4 was very durable and compared to the older Lithium types this seems to be true in that there is no possibility of a "Three Mile Island" event taking place. But now I know about the problems with individual cell overuse and how bad that can be towards killing off a cell in a hurry. I'm going to have to be certain that I've got some kind of individual cell solution to try out before I'm ready for these.

I'm taking it as an interesting theoretical exercise right now to be working on my own "Distributed Pulse Width Modulation" power management scheme that will:

Save me from buying a bunch of expensive stuff.

Add longer life to the cells.

Advance (hopefully) design into a new area which in itself is always fun to do.

...will I be able to pull it off?

Don't know that one yet, so I might revert back to expensive, less than ideal, conventional stuff in the end. I like the cells though.

 

[Ypedal]

I say leave the engineering to the engineers !! :lol:

 

[safe]

I say leave the engineering to the engineers !!

In my case I'm trying to invent new stuff. I'm an "inventor / builder / rider". For me it's really not about saving the world, but more about creating a product that might make money eventually. If I can create a new system for managing raw cells that might mean that my product could be sold at a lower price because right now the packaged products with built in BMS systems can tack on 200% or 300% onto the price of the battery. It would cut into my profit margins if I had to pass along that price to a customer. If instead I could design a circuit that could then be farmed out to someone to mass produce (which is pretty cheap) then the baseline for a product might drop by a few hundred dollars.

It might mean the difference between asking $1500 for a bike verses $1200 for a bike.

So that's the motivation.

When the prices of the BMS system packages are the same as the raw cells (or near it) then it won't matter. But for now it's an expensive deal to go the conventional way. If they can mass produce the prepackaged BMC battery packs and drive the price way down then everyone will just latch onto them.

However, it might be interesting if a better solution might actually produce longer battery life than even the packaged ones do. If that's the case then people would "go digital" and dump the old analog BMS.

 

[PJD]

Anyone have direct contact for Patrick regarding the bulk-purchase cell deal. I PM'd him, but I don't think he comes here very often?

Thanks,

Paul D.

 

[TylerDurden]

If you PM him, he should get a notification in his email.

 

[green hornet]

Doing a sea freight order Monday of Headway cells.
Who wants in ?
put your $ where your mouth is.
10Ah w studs $30 each
12Ah $35 each
+ domestic shipping
pretty blue colorView attachment 42120 12ah.JPG

 

[safe]

10Ah w studs $30 each
12Ah $35 each
+ domestic shipping

My understanding is that this is the same price that Patrick posted a while ago. Is there some way to actually get a volume discount? The whole point of group orders is to drive the price down, if there's no price break then why do it collectively?

 

[green hornet]

That depends on your interpretation, expectation of " price break "
and " volume discount ".
Your statement implies that $30 isn't good enough.
Did shipping expense, customs, X-ray fee, etc. ever cross your mind ?
Yes, you can get a better price, FOB.
What volume are YOU talking about ?

 

[safe]

A123 - $15 / 2.3Ah = $6.50 per Ah

42120 - $30 / 10Ah = $3 per Ah

Thundersky - $80 / 40Ah = $2 per Ah

Which makes the 42120's about 50% more expensive than the Thundersky cells. (half the price of A123's)

So I'm not seeing the big value in this... unless you have your heart set on cyclindrical cells verses the square shape. It's not that I'm trying to attack your purchasing decision, but I'd like to know how your thought process arrived at wanting this deal.

 

[green hornet]

Based on that (il)logic - everybody should immediately rush out and buy TS cells at 2C rate, 500 life cycles, no warranty, etc.
If you want TS cells, go buy them, dont compare them against better Quality cells.
Better still, walk into a Mercedes dealer, and ask him why would anybody buy his car when they can go buy a Kia
You are a moron

 

[safe]

...buy TS cells at 2C rate, 500 life cycles

You are talking about the old "LMP" cells. Those were junk (you had to "limp" your way home) and were rated at only 300 cycles, but the new ones are called "LFP" and are now made with LiFePO4 and are rated at 2000 cycles. Patrick has been testing them and has claimed that as long as you use proper charging and discharging techniques they appear to work as advertised.

In general it's better to be sure you are up to date before you accuse another of being a moron. :wink: (that's okay, things move fast these days )

http://www.thunder-sky.com/products_en.asp

http://www.plasticlabels.ca/index_files/compareEVbatteries.htm

 

[EMF]

Based on that (il)logic - everybody should immediately rush out and buy TS cells at 2C rate, 500 life cycles, no warranty, etc.

What's the warranty on your cells? What is the chemistry? I see from the picture, that they are 3.2 volts per cell so I am a bit confused, but I assume from that, they are LifePO4? What cycle life can we expect?

 

[green hornet]

check w Dr. Bass for all info, proof, testing is in progress
what i say means nothing

 

[EMF]

I take that response to mean there is no warranty?