Headless - New baserunner v5 Z9 - throttle issue

nickceouk

10 W
Joined
Jan 18, 2020
Messages
81
I am trying to setup a grin baserunner v5 Z9
without the Cycle analyst display.

According to the manual I need to connect
1) Main cable B+ pin(red wire) to the On/off pin (orange) via external switch.

I wired that to a throttle with on/off switch and voltage display.

To verify that this step is working I checked with multi meter the 5v pin (brown) and this pin is live with 5v after I turn on the wired switch.
The thumb throttle display shows the battery voltage when I also connect Main cable - ground pin (black) to the black pin of the throttle.
I then connected the main cable - 5v (brown) to the red wire on the throttle and the remaining green wire to the main cable - green wire.

When I connected the baserunner to the desktop software I run the autotune test and the baserunner was able to spin the wheel.

The problem is that when I press the throttle, I can see the voltage change from 1.92 to 4.22 but the wheel isn't spinning.
On the dashboard section of the desktop software I see the brake flag light up when I press the lever and the hall sensors indicators work when I manually spin the wheel but the throttle flag does not lit when I press the throttle...

How do I get the throttle to work?
 
16961747827457299588028248245535.jpg
 

Attachments

  • 16961748794033703565061456677384.jpg
    16961748794033703565061456677384.jpg
    2.7 MB · Views: 6
  • 16961749481457406392431041858891.jpg
    16961749481457406392431041858891.jpg
    3.6 MB · Views: 7
  • 16961749722314524118386519417880.jpg
    16961749722314524118386519417880.jpg
    3.2 MB · Views: 5
  • 16961749935403430390227165022247.jpg
    16961749935403430390227165022247.jpg
    2.8 MB · Views: 5
The first photo shows the throttle at rest is 1.9v and the second is while maxing the throttle with voltage at 4.2v

I noticed that there is a white wire coming from the motor which is not one of the 5 hall sensor wires. I also saw that baserunner had a speed/temperature sensor on the same motor cable ...could this be temperature from the motor?
On the PC software the motor temperature was reported as 88 C and that can't be accurate as the bike sits at rest...
 

Attachments

  • 16961761269484347243250729216813.jpg
    16961761269484347243250729216813.jpg
    2 MB · Views: 3
Last edited:
~1V off to ~4V on is normal for an ebike throttle. There's lots of settings for throttle mapping if needed, though.

Doesn't sound like you wired the ignition correctly, though. Usually it's supposed to have positive battery voltage, not +5V, in my experience.
 
~1V off to ~4V on is normal for an ebike throttle. There's lots of settings for throttle mapping if needed, though.

Doesn't sound like you wired the ignition correctly, though. Usually it's supposed to have positive battery voltage, not +5V, in my experience.
The throttle voltage I am getting in the developer tab (first 2 Photos) ranges from 1.8 to 4.2 and I noticed that the voltage drops after pressing bellow 1v and later pressing further gets to it's max position of 4.2v

The ignition? Perhaps I mis-communicated this setup :

On the Baserunner side I take the ->main cable -> battery + (13s voltages when checked with multimeter against the gnd pin) to the 2 wires r the on/off throttle switch(check picture - red toggle) and pass that back to theBR on the Main cable - "on/off" pin.
When the throttle red Button is toggled the 5v pin on the BR Main cable comes live. Toggling to off possition on the throttle results in no voltage supplied by the BR to the 5v pin.
That gives me confidence the on/off switch is starting/switching off the Baserunner controller ok.

I wasn't sure about the ebrake wiring.
Is it meant to pull high to 5v or low to gnd ?
I am confused that I have the gnd pin from the BR Main cable connected to the lever and then back to the ebrake pin on the BR main cable.
That results in the Brake Signal dropping from about 0.90v to 0.05. The software suite on windows registers that as brake press which is correct but I have seen other screenshots where the brake is pulled high to 5v?

Are the values for brake start voltage 0.9 v and max voltage 0.05 correct? I don't get a warning but it's not entirely intuitive
 
A 1.8 volt d.c signal output from a hall sensored throttle at rest seems high.

I like your work around of increasing the “throttle start voltage“ to 2.0 vdc.
But suspect that you need to increase the “throttle fault range” to that same voltage as to not trip the fault code as seen.

Doesn’t explain the high throttle voltage, but perhaps you can get it to work this way till you address the high voltage issue.



Regards,
T.C.
 
The throttle voltage I am getting in the developer tab (first 2 Photos) ranges from 1.8 to 4.2 and I noticed that the voltage drops after pressing bellow 1v and later pressing further gets to it's max position of 4.2v
So, it goes *down* to 1v after starting at 1.8v? Then back up from 1v to 4.2v? That's wierd, and sounds like the throttle might have a messed up magnet in it. Some of them have two magnets, in those if one is flipped backwards (the one closest to the sensor when it is "off") you could get this result.


I wasn't sure about the ebrake wiring.
Is it meant to pull high to 5v or low to gnd ?
In the typical controller, that would pull it to ground. If you ground the ebrake line, it activates it. If you don't ground it, nothing happens.

In the BR/PR it depends on how you set the brake start and brake max voltages. You need to wire it so the voltage you get when engaged is the brake max voltage (or set BM to whatever you get when engaged).

It also depends on how you wire the brake input and throttle input--see below for some of that info.

I am confused that I have the gnd pin from the BR Main cable connected to the lever and then back to the ebrake pin on the BR main cable.
That results in the Brake Signal dropping from about 0.90v to 0.05. The software suite on windows registers that as brake press which is correct but I have seen other screenshots where the brake is pulled high to 5v?
AFAICR, the brake signal on a typical controller should be 5v or so from an internal pullup when you are not using the lever, if all the lever does is provide a ground when active.

I'll have to go take a peek at the manual to be sure (I'm presently setting up a Phaserunner v6 on the SB Cruiser trike) but AFAICR on the BR/PR it's an analog input so no pullup is present (but you could install one if you are only using it as a switch for a single level of regen).



Are the values for brake start voltage 0.9 v and max voltage 0.05 correct? I don't get a warning but it's not entirely intuitive

It's not intuitive because you're probably thinking of the brake as a separate on/off input like generic controllers have...on the BR it was designed first to be a unified input from the throttle (but is possible to separate it like in headless mode).

When it is a unified input (brake signal wired to throttle signal), the brake start voltage and max voltage are the values the *throttle input* has to drop to to cause variable regen braking. Brake start is the voltage on the throttle input at which braking will start, and max voltage is the voltage on the throttle input at which max braking force is applied.

This is done this way because Grin designed the Cycle Analyst to work with some custom-firmware Grinfineon controllers (and later the PR and BR and FR) to use the "dead zone" of 0-0.8v in the throttle input to control variable regen, partly since those first controllers hardware didn't include a second variable input that could be used to vary braking force, and partly since the CA didn't have a second variable output to send that, either.

(most controllers still dont' have a second variable input for braking force, and many of those that do have variable braking do it via the throttle input too, though not usually the same way the CA does).

When not using the CA, then the BR/PR does actually have a separate braking input you can wire a separate variable (or fixed) braking control (second throttle, ebrake switch etc) to. The manual covers the wiring for this, page 17. If you use the brake input separately from teh throttle this way, then you would set the brake start voltage to jsut above what that control outputs when off, and brake max voltage to the highest voltage it outputs when at it's max pull/throw/etc.

So for just a 2-wire grounding brake lever, you'd wire a small resistor from 5v to the brake signal wire, and the lever from the sginal wire to ground, so that it would be at 5v all the time except when pulling the lever. Then set BS to just above ground, like a few tenths of a volt or less, and BM to 0v or whatever you read on that signal line when your lever is pulled.

If you have a hall-sensor (3wire) brake lever, you'd wire it up to 5v, brake signal, and ground, and it would do the pullup for you, no resistor needed. Then measure the voltage you get when pulled, and use that for BM, with BS just above that.


If you have a dual-pull lever that can pull two cables, you can buy one of these COTs (cable operated throttles)
1696205490998.png
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2251832768594256.html (I use these on the SB Cruiser trike)

and have one of the pulls on the lever pull a cable to that COT (the other to your actual brake), wire the COT to the 5v, ground, and brake signal input of the BR, and have variable control of your regen (just set BM to the max output of the COT at max pull *just before your actual brakes begin working* ***, and BS to just above the minimum the COT outputs when lever isn't pulled at all. )

*** that's so that you can use the ebrake first before any mechanical braking happens, to recover all the energy you like that way first, and save wear on your pads...if you don't want that and just want regen as extra braking force, set BM to the max ouput of the COT when lever is pulled all the way).



See this thread for some more info:
 
A 1.8 volt d.c signal output from a hall sensored throttle at rest seems high.

I like your work around of increasing the “throttle start voltage“ to 2.0 vdc.
But suspect that you need to increase the “throttle fault range” to that same voltage as to not trip the fault code as seen.

Doesn’t explain the high throttle voltage, but perhaps you can get it to work this way till you address the high voltage issue.



Regards,
T.C.
Changed throttle and this one goes from 0.88V at rest to 4.21V with max pressure applied. Cleared the throttle and brake fault range back to default values 1.2V - 3.5V for throttle and 0.85V to 0.2V. No more faults showing in dashboard after this.

Thank you
 
Thank you very much AW - don't know how I would fix this if it wasn't for your help!

As per my previous post I replaced the throttle and this new throttle outputs in the range from 0.88V to 4.22v. Considering that sorted now.

My ebrake is a 2 wire NO(normally open) hydraulic lever type. You are absolutely right in that I expected the BR ebrake pin to be an on/off switch signal.
Knowing what I know now I am considering what's the best way to get the ebrake on a hall effect sensor for the rear wheel lever which is where the hub motor is.
I want to take full advantage of the options that BR presents so variable brake force before mechanical brake force is applied is the way to go for me.
I see what you are suggesting with the rotary pull cable lever. It makes a lot of sense for the use case you have for it. It gives me an idea of how I might be able to implement automatic braking and throttle on a trailer with hub drive but that would be on another endless sphere post, I hope.

Is there a good hydraulic brake lever with hall sensor that is not crazily overpriced?
That would be optimal from where I look at it.

Another issue I am facing is with Regen and some of the voltage cutoff etc settings.
Basically I intend on using the built in 13s battery but also flip switch to external 14s packs with jbd BMS on them.

Is there a way to switch BR profiles when changing from 13s to 14s so that Regen settings and battery voltage settings are correct for each battery ?
Failing that I guess I would set cut off low voltage to 13s and max voltage to 14s but not sure about Regen ...is this how it should be done?

To be clear I also sent an email to grin asking for support as I have so many questions but haven't heard back just yet.

I find it very helpful when others who have gone through setting up the PR/BR/FR before and can shed light on it's workings even though there is a manual which I am also consulting.

(The photo is of the NO 2 wire ebrake)
 

Attachments

  • IMG20231002114055.jpg
    IMG20231002114055.jpg
    3.4 MB · Views: 2
I want to check if what I have done so far to setup the BR is how it's supposed to be done and if I have potentially missed something.

1)The ebike I am trying to setup with base runner is originally branded Engwe Engine pro 750W and listed to include Regen braking.
2)The OEM controller has a sticker model: X055-AXC001C
"Battery voltage : 48V"
"Cutoff voltage: 39V"
"Current limit 23A"
"Display meter: 5S"
(Check photo)
3) The rear hub motor has the following serial (logo resembling H within a circle) then 48V750WP22070181 F
(Check photo)

1)After connecting the BR to Windows PC with TRRS cable - I could see the Phaserunner suite software showing "Base runner V5 Z9" is connected.

2)I then opened the Basic setup tab and set kV to 10(as suggested in BR manual)

3)I do not know the motor make or type and hence can't load the settings from the list in the software.
Since the motor hall sensors work fine on the dashboard tab and I can see them changing when spinning the wheel, I proceeded with counting how many times all 6 positions iterate in a full revolution the wheel. That came to 50 and I input that as Number of Pole pairs before running auto tune.
After auto tune Kv, rs,ls were populated with detected values, the wheel spins fine in test.

Question - the z9 cable coming from the motor has a white wire in addition to the 5 hall sensor related wires and 3 phases(photo 3 - z9 wires).

According to BR manual this can be input signal for motor temperature, motor speed or a combination of temperature+ motor speed.
Is there any way of working out what I have with this motor ?
At the moment I get 88 deg C Motor temperature and 0.85V Motor temperature sensor voltage on the Temperature tab of phaserunner software but it's obviously wrong? (Photo 4)

(Edit) I noticed that the wheel speed sensor flag in Dashboard tab turns green several times per one wheel revolution. I don't really get the wheel speed sensor to be honest... isn't this the same thing you can get by counting hall sensors signal changes divided by 50( magnetic poles etc)?
How is speed sensor useful and different to what can be deducted from other sensors present?

(Edit 1) I noticed that as soon as I engage and then hold the brake lever - I get a Warning [9] : Motor temperature Rollback in Dashboard (photo 5). The message disappears once I depressed the lever
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20231002_113439.jpg
    IMG_20231002_113439.jpg
    1.4 MB · Views: 2
  • IMG_20231002_113529.jpg
    IMG_20231002_113529.jpg
    3.1 MB · Views: 2
  • IMG_20231002_113706.jpg
    IMG_20231002_113706.jpg
    2.4 MB · Views: 2
  • IMG_20231002_132308.jpg
    IMG_20231002_132308.jpg
    6.1 MB · Views: 2
  • IMG_20231002_134855.jpg
    IMG_20231002_134855.jpg
    4.3 MB · Views: 2
Last edited:
I was able to get the throttle to work.

Similar to another users post and what the manuals were suggesting I wired the ebrake return signal to the mains cable throttle signal and then jumped the throttle to the ebrake pin on the BR mains cable. In the Phaserunner suite the ebrake pin is labeled as 'Throttle and Brake voltage' under the Developer tab (addr 271).
Now that the brake and throttle are linked the Advanced setup tab -> throttle+ brake parameters come into force as expected.

Going forward I need help with configuration of field weakening, motor speed & temperature sensor, pas sensor an finally multi voltage (13s,14s) batteries swap(same bike) with Regen etc
 
Going forward I need help with configuration of field weakening, motor speed & temperature sensor, pas sensor an finally multi voltage (13s,14s) batteries swap(same bike) with Regen etc
Note that based on your other thread realizing that you have a geared hub, regen won't be an option unless you decide to weld the clutch.
 
Note that based on your other thread realizing that you have a geared hub, regen won't be an option unless you decide to weld the clutch.
I know what you are referring to as per the GMAC clutchless motor but there is a but here!

The bike was sold to me as a regen capable E-Bike and here Confirmation of regen capability Engwe Engine pro the specs confirm it and also a write up on it being tested and working with OEM controller.

Is there any chance that an OEM controller is using something that the BR is not capable of also using? I really don't know the answer.

P.S. When I use the throttle and press the lever the combined brake+throttle signal goes to 0.05v and the wheel starts spinning backwards. Keeping the ebrake engaged and releasing the throttle stops the reverse motion...

Regen is desirable for it's great braking capability... battery regen is a bonus.
The freewheeling current I measured at around 0.4amps which is higher resistance than clutch hub motors judging by their default values in Phaserunner. From what I read clutchless geared hub with regen is indeed with higher resistance as a trade-off
 
My ebrake is a 2 wire NO(normally open) hydraulic lever type. You are absolutely right in that I expected the BR ebrake pin to be an on/off switch signal.
Knowing what I know now I am considering what's the best way to get the ebrake on a hall effect sensor for the rear wheel lever which is where the hub motor is.
I want to take full advantage of the options that BR presents so variable brake force before mechanical brake force is applied is the way to go for me.
I see what you are suggesting with the rotary pull cable lever. It makes a lot of sense for the use case you have for it.
If you can affix a cable-puller to your hydraulic lever you can use the COT method.

Or you can attach just a throttle hall sensor (easy to pull one out of an unused old throttle, or you can buy individual sensors) to the brake body and a magnet to the lever, and then just set the BR's brake voltages to match what you get out of it. You can actually add this to both levers, and so either lever will then also control the regen braking.


It gives me an idea of how I might be able to implement automatic braking and throttle on a trailer with hub drive but that would be on another endless sphere post, I hope.

There's already some threads about that, including one that was just a downhill-braking trailer, not used for driving forward but just for braking. Don't know how it worked out for them but there is a lot of info in it about considerations, etc.

Is there a good hydraulic brake lever with hall sensor that is not crazily overpriced?
That would be optimal from where I look at it.
I don't know if there are any with a variable-output sensor like that; you'd have to look around to see if there are any compatible with your braking system that *also* have a usable voltage output range and are powered by 5v. The only ones I have seen are just an on/off switch.

There is a post here somewhere (perhaps inside my thread about variable regen brake levers) where someone installed a pressure transducer in their hydraulic line and read the voltage off of that, but they may have used an MCU or similar to read it and then send the correct voltage range to the brake input of their device.



Another issue I am facing is with Regen and some of the voltage cutoff etc settings.
Basically I intend on using the built in 13s battery but also flip switch to external 14s packs with jbd BMS on them.

Is there a way to switch BR profiles when changing from 13s to 14s so that Regen settings and battery voltage settings are correct for each battery ?
Failing that I guess I would set cut off low voltage to 13s and max voltage to 14s but not sure about Regen ...is this how it should be done?
You would actually want to set the max voltage to the lower battery's max, so you never overcharge it, and set the min voltage to the higher voltage pack so you never overdischarge it.

You will then not have as much range out of the BR but there's no way to adjust these on the fly that I am aware of.
 
The bike was sold to me as a regen capable E-Bike and here Confirmation of regen capability Engwe Engine pro the specs confirm it and also a write up on it being tested and working with OEM controller.

Is there any chance that an OEM controller is using something that the BR is not capable of also using? I really don't know the answer.
The controller can't make a clutched geared hub do regen; the hub must be clutchless or else it must have some special electro/mechanical contraption on it that locks the clutch during braking, which would be something else to break and cost more, so very unlikely they'd do it--it would also require extra control mechanics or electronics or both on the bike, probably operated only by the OEM controller.

If you have a clutchless motor, then when you manually spin it, it will have just as much resistance forwards as backwards, like a DD hubmotor but a bit greater (with power turned off).

It will also run in reverse with just as much torque as forwards, so if you take your chain off of it so it won't spin your pedals and derail things or break them, you can test this under load (on ground) if you can hold onto the bike while it moves backwards.

If it is a clutched motor, it will not provide torque in reverse under load, though when offground if the motor spins fast enough inside the casing, it could spin the wheel at least a little from friction in the clutch.
 
Similar to another users post and what the manuals were suggesting I wired the ebrake return signal to the mains cable throttle signal and then jumped the throttle to the ebrake pin on the BR mains cable. In the Phaserunner suite the ebrake pin is labeled as 'Throttle and Brake voltage' under the Developer tab (addr 271).
Now that the brake and throttle are linked the Advanced setup tab -> throttle+ brake parameters come into force as expected

If you connect those two, then you can't use a separate brake control.

The usual reason for connecting brake and throttle input wires together is if you are using a Cycle Analyst, as it turns your throttle into the variable brake control when you engage an ebrake switch that's wired to the CA as well as your throttle. Since you're running headless, this is not an option.

So for your use case, with those tied together, you have to use a throttle that can output a voltage "below" it's off voltage to provide brake control voltage. There are some that are like the Vectrix throttle which has a center detent for "off", and rotating it backwards increases braking, and rotating it forwards increase acceleration, I think Wuxing makes one, but it will have to replace your existing throttle.

Or you can build an arduino/etc MCU-based unit that does what the CA does.



Going forward I need help with configuration of field weakening,
Do you need a higher speed than your motor winding vs battery voltage can provide? If not, then you don't need FW.
 
Question - the z9 cable coming from the motor has a white wire in addition to the 5 hall sensor related wires and 3 phases(photo 3 - z9 wires).

According to BR manual this can be input signal for motor temperature, motor speed or a com bination of temperature+ motor speed.
Is there any way of working out what I have with this motor ?

Yes. If it is like most of the built in speed sensors, it will use six poles (six magnets on the side cover). Set wheelspeed sensor to that, and then watch the speed reading in the dashboard. If it's correct, then this is your speed sensor.

If you're not sure if it's working, and you can tap into the actual wires in the cable while it's still connected to the powered-on BR, you can put a multimeter set to 20DCVolts with red lead to that white wire and black lead to black wire. Slowly rotate tthe wheel by hand and you should see it chagne from around 5v to around 0v repeatedly.

If instead you get an analog voltage out, then it is a temperature sensor; and you can try the different types listed in the BR's temperature tab.

Or...it could be a multiplexed signal; the manual has some info on this but I don't know how it's handled in the BR; I don't have one like that here to check out.

It could also just be an unused wire, with no connection inside the motor.


I don't really get the wheel speed sensor to be honest... isn't this the same thing you can get by counting hall sensors signal changes divided by 50( magnetic poles etc)?
Yes, but...if you have a geared clutched motor (most of them are), you only get a valid wheelspeed reading when the motor is spinning fast enough to push the motor shell and wheel, if it's not spinning or spinning slower, you get a zero or low speed reading.

A separate wheelspeed sensor fixes this.
 
Last edited:
The controller can't make a clutched geared hub do regen; the hub must be clutchless or else it must have some special electro/mechanical contraption on it that locks the clutch during braking, which would be something else to break and cost more, so very unlikely they'd do it--it would also require extra control mechanics or electronics or both on the bike, probably operated only by the OEM controller.

If you have a clutchless motor, then when you manually spin it, it will have just as much resistance forwards as backwards, like a DD hubmotor but a bit greater (with power turned off).

It will also run in reverse with just as much torque as forwards, so if you take your chain off of it so it won't spin your pedals and derail things or break them, you can test this under load (on ground) if you can hold onto the bike while it moves backwards.

If it is a clutched motor, it will not provide torque in reverse under load, though when offground if the motor spins fast enough inside the casing, it could spin the wheel at least a little from friction in the clutch.
100% not clutchless. I grounded the FWD/REV pin and with the chain off, pressed throttle. The wheel spins in reverse but when I applied pressure to stop it moving I was able to stop it. Not the same torque as forward so its a clutched geared hub motor like the rest of them.

I really don't know about the OEM claims for the ebike regen capability. I guess I will just make of it what I can and how it is by ticking0 off what I though I have vs reality of what I have after thorough testing.
 
If you can affix a cable-puller to your hydraulic lever you can use the COT method.

Or you can attach just a throttle hall sensor (easy to pull one out of an unused old throttle, or you can buy individual sensors) to the brake body and a magnet to the lever, and then just set the BR's brake voltages to match what you get out of it. You can actually add this to both levers, and so either lever will then also control the regen braking.




There's already some threads about that, including one that was just a downhill-braking trailer, not used for driving forward but just for braking. Don't know how it worked out for them but there is a lot of info in it about considerations, etc.


I don't know if there are any with a variable-output sensor like that; you'd have to look around to see if there are any compatible with your braking system that *also* have a usable voltage output range and are powered by 5v. The only ones I have seen are just an on/off switch.

There is a post here somewhere (perhaps inside my thread about variable regen brake levers) where someone installed a pressure transducer in their hydraulic line and read the voltage off of that, but they may have used an MCU or similar to read it and then send the correct voltage range to the brake input of their device.




You would actually want to set the max voltage to the lower battery's max, so you never overcharge it, and set the min voltage to the higher voltage pack so you never overdischarge it.

You will then not have as much range out of the BR but there's no way to adjust these on the fly that I am aware of.
I was entertaining the idea of making an ebrake lever like the dual lever on mole grips. The smaller lever nested under the bigger was to be a second 'throttle like' regen brake. Now that I have crossed the possibility of my hub motor being clutchless ....

I still think the cable puller route is a great option and presents many engineering possibilities.

Trailer on regen braking makes sense to me even though I don't know how much of a problem is the added freewheel spin resistance.
Its good that there is Virtual freewheeling to compensate on the controller side (grin) but as usual it all starts with good hardware, thorough design and keeping it that way through the rest of a given build.

I know that on the clutched hub its really annoying as it stops nearly instantly when freewheeling(can't imagine what a clutchless would be like).

I will set the over- discharge voltage to the 13s and will rely on JBD bms fi=or the 14S. In addition to that I will have a voltage indicator on the handlebar its possible to mixup which battery is currently hooked but the BMS will be the backup redundancy instead of the controller so as to maximize the range
 
If you connect those two, then you can't use a separate brake control.

The usual reason for connecting brake and throttle input wires together is if you are using a Cycle Analyst, as it turns your throttle into the variable brake control when you engage an ebrake switch that's wired to the CA as well as your throttle. Since you're running headless, this is not an option.

So for your use case, with those tied together, you have to use a throttle that can output a voltage "below" it's off voltage to provide brake control voltage. There are some that are like the Vectrix throttle which has a center detent for "off", and rotating it backwards increases braking, and rotating it forwards increase acceleration, I think Wuxing makes one, but it will have to replace your existing throttle.

Or you can build an arduino/etc MCU-based unit that does what the CA does.




Do you need a higher speed than your motor winding vs battery voltage can provide? If not, then you don't need FW.
Field weakening switched off, thank you for the tip. I can always come back to it if I need higher speeds to test.

Knowing its a non-regen motor, the throttle with variable voltage braking is probably an overkill in non-regen bikes? Is it not a case of on/off ebrake for all but regen capable setups?
 
Yes. If it is like most of the built in speed sensors, it will use six poles (six magnets on the side cover). Set wheelspeed sensor to that, and then watch the speed reading in the dashboard. If it's correct, then this is your speed sensor.

If you're not sure if it's working, and you can tap into the actual wires in the cable while it's still connected to the powered-on BR, you can put a multimeter set to 20DCVolts with red lead to that white wire and black lead to black wire. Slowly rotate tthe wheel and you should see it chagne from around 5v to around 0v repeatedly.

If instead you get an analog voltage out, then it is a temperature sensor; and you can try the different types listed in the BR's temperature tab.

Or...it could be a multiplexed signal; the manual has some info on this but I don't know how it's handled in the BR; I don't have one like that here to check out.

It could also just be an unused wire, with no connection inside the motor.



Yes, but...if you have a geared clutched motor (most of them are), you only get a valid wheel speed reading when the motor is spinning fast enough to push the motor shell and wheel, if it's not spinning or spinning slower, you get a zero or low speed reading.

A separate wheelspeed sensor fixes this.
I connected the to multi meter and that showed me the voltage moved from mV to volts but the multi meter updates too slow to register the fast changes. What I can confirm is that the voltage changed as the wheel is spinning and that "wheel speed sensor" lights up in the dashboard.

I have also removed the PAS 1 that I had connected to OEM PAS sensor as I could not get it working by pedaling. The OEM one had an uncomfortable latency which I associate now with all PAS sensors.

Thank you for explaining why the speed sensor on its own is useful. I am very happy to know the differences now.

Your posts made a huge difference to me and I really appreciate the effort you put into this and Endless sphere in general!
 
I connected the to multi meter and that showed me the voltage moved from mV to volts but the multi meter updates too slow to register the fast changes.

It won't be fast changes if you are manually spinning the wheel slowly to see how it changes...because you just spin it slower so you can see them. ;)

If you're trying to see pulses while the *motor* is spinning the wheel...that could be difficult.


I have also removed the PAS 1 that I had connected to OEM PAS sensor as I could not get it working by pedaling. The OEM one had an uncomfortable latency which I associate now with all PAS sensors.
The sensor isn't the only issue with the latency--it is the design of the software that reads that and how it chooses to respond. Most of the systems are not adjustable by the user, and are very basic, not designed for performance or responsiveness, but rather for cost-reduction and simplicity (which means less options and less stuff to futz with for support personnel).

But if it is a low-pole count sensor then it takes longer for the pedals to turn far enough for it to detect a change in speed. The more poles the sensor has, the faster it's response time can be, up to whatever thepole-count-limit is of the controller reading it.

Justin_LE has some posts here and/or on the ebikes.ca site about PAS cadence sensors and how they work, that may help you see the issues.

As for getting an existing PAS sensor working...remember that there are several types of them, that provide different kinds of signals, some of which use one signal pin, some use two. They also run on different voltage levels (most on 5v, though ebikes.ca has some modified ones for 10-12v so they'll run off the Cycle Analyst power, etc.)

If your sensor is a 5v unit and it's powered from 12v, it could be damaged by it. Depends on the specific hall sensor(s) used inside and any other logic circuits it may have. (some motor-type halls can go up to 30vdc, for instance, and these are the same types that can be used for cadence-type PAS sensors...but others only go up to 3v or 4v or 5v, etc--you can't know without having the part number marked on the actual internal hall sensor and finding it's manufacturer datasheet, so it is safer to assume it will run only on 5v if you don't know for sure otherwise).

Then there are the many kinds of torque sensors (which usually output a variable voltage), some of which include a cadence sensor (that still outputs pulses).

Some torque sensor units don't output a variable voltage or have separate cadence pulses, but instead use a serial bus like CANbus or 1-wire or one of the many others, and send all data to the controller that way. Those are typically only useful on the OEM controller they come with, without reverse engineering the data stream and making an MCU conversion system for it.


Your posts made a huge difference to me and I really appreciate the effort you put into this and Endless sphere in general!

Thanks--most of the ebike stuff i post about are things I learned here in the first place. ;)


100% not clutchless. I grounded the FWD/REV pin and with the chain off, pressed throttle. The wheel spins in reverse but when I applied pressure to stop it moving I was able to stop it. Not the same torque as forward so its a clutched geared hub motor like the rest of them.
Yeah, if you can stop it by hand and the motor keeps running, it's a clutched motor that freewheels the hub casing relative to the motor gearing/etc.

So it can't do regen braking, nor can it run in reverse to back up a bike or trike/etc.


I was entertaining the idea of making an ebrake lever like the dual lever on mole grips. The smaller lever nested under the bigger was to be a second 'throttle like' regen brake. Now that I have crossed the possibility of my hub motor being clutchless ....
<snip> Knowing its a non-regen motor, the throttle with variable voltage braking is probably an overkill in non-regen bikes? Is it not a case of on/off ebrake for all but regen capable setups?

Since the motor can't do regen, there's no reason at present to add any form of motor braking control. You can use the on/off switch in your existing levers if you like, to provide a motor-turn-off signal if you like, but as long as you stop pedalling when you brake (for PAS/torque control) or let off the throttle, you don't need that either.



Trailer on regen braking makes sense to me even though I don't know how much of a problem is the added freewheel spin resistance.
Not sure what you mean. You won't have any freewheel for a regen capable motor. (not between the motor and the ground, anyway).


For an non-freewheeling motor, if you use a controller like the *runners with Virtual Freewheeling, it can be tuned to reduce the extra resistance to zero with minimal current.

How much power that uses vs what's recovered depends on how much braking you do with it vs how much distance you travel--if you go a long long way without using it's braking, it might not be worth having the function unless what you need the system to do for you simply won't work without having that braking at some point in the trip (which usually points to inadequate mechanical brakes or poor tire choice for conditions, etc).

If the reason for having regen braking is energy recovery, well, that's not typically worth it as you *might* get 5% back, or less. Probably costs less and weighs less and takes less space and is certainly a lot less complicated to just carry 5% more battery. ;)



I know that on the clutched hub its really annoying as it stops nearly instantly when freewheeling(can't imagine what a clutchless would be like).
I don't know what you mean?

I will set the over- discharge voltage to the 13s and will rely on JBD bms fi=or the 14S.
I recommend changing the JBD BMS per-cell LVC upward to match what the controller's LVC should be for that--typically that's 3.0-3.3v. Just divide the LVC you see on a typical 52v controller by 14s (or 48v controller by 13s) to get the value you should set the BMS LVC to.

That will protect the 14s pack better, by not running it down to the minimum (which is hard on it and more likely to unbalance it). It shouldn't make much difference to your range, but the pack will last longer / run more reliably this way.
 
Back
Top