How good is Cyclone 4kw coaxial suspension bike?

[Tommm]

Paco returned my email and said “ The PAS is not available with Elite frame kit, because it need to be left side belt drive”

If you are hell bent on adding PAS, and have a controller to properly do it, you can use any off the shelf PAS ring( + magnet glued to crank) outside the motor. It would fit easily.

Do you know the belt drive variant he is talking about?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oWSajDks8I
It's an eeb frame, but with a modified motor with bike chain one side (pedal powered) and belt drive on the other side (motor powered). He uses a brake disc to sprocket adapter with it.
I am 99% sure this setup could be adapted to the coaxial bike. The only things you'd need are the fatbike 170mm rear end and a tensioner for the belt as the coaxial has chain growth whereas the eeb setup doesn't.

But really the coaxial is a motorbike with pedals. You can PAS up to ~800w, above it the efficiency will be so bad that you are better off going the appropriate gear with throttle and you will have a better range.
One thing I learned after building my 3rd high powered mid drive: you can't have it all. Other frames will have other issues. If you bring the chainring RPM into pedalling zone, at the same power levels you will literally be folding chainrings and bending chainring bolts like the cyc guys who are like Andy, doing 250nm+ at the chainring.

After rinding this bike for 1.5 years and similarly being bent on getting PAS at the start, even when I had it in mine I never used it. (I do use it on my 1200w bike.)

For the city, your palm reacts way quicker to dangers and opportunities than some pedal sensor, so throttle is safer.
Outside the city, unless you have all afternoon, you will be using throttle to get anywhere because you will be putting 2000w+ down and as I wrote above it is not feasable to reliably do that with PAS.
Off road, not having to predict and position your pedals for each obstacle will be a godsend, and electric dirt biking is way more fun then eletric assisting anyway. The bike can fit 2.5kwh easily, your legs will add 0.3kwh total during a good day until you are knackered. Similarly, your legs will do 500w max, with the motor doing 5000w. How much reliability and durability are you willing to give up for 10%?

You can look at how I ride and point out when would having PAS been useful for me, because I sure didn't miss it.
[youtube]exdal74puy4[/youtube]

 

[fizzit]

Hopefully you put some electrical tape on your white colored connectors that I see down by your crank. A little water there and you could go full throttle. You should know how I know this.

Well that's concerning, sounds like a hard earned lesson. Those are the motor phase connections, I have pretty much all the other connectors waterproofed. Was the water in the throttle connection in your case?

 

[Tommm]

Hopefully you put some electrical tape on your white colored connectors that I see down by your crank. A little water there and you could go full throttle. You should know how I know this.

Well that's concerning, sounds like a hard earned lesson. Those are the motor phase connections, I have pretty much all the other connectors waterproofed. Was the water in the throttle connection in your case?

You can get a big srink tube and warm it or get a bike inner tube and zip tie over it

 

[TRB.206]

Thanks for the help, I’ve decided to stick with this build.

I asked Paco for a quote and he said $1080 shipped.

I was expecting a discount as some of you have reported close to 30% off when ordering by email but I don’t think my quote includes a discount. The website lists the frame and motor for $899.

 

[Tommm]

Thanks for the help, I’ve decided to stick with this build.

I asked Paco for a quote and he said $1080 shipped.

I was expecting a discount as some of you have reported close to 30% off when ordering by email but I don’t think my quote includes a discount. The website lists the frame and motor for $899.

What's the spec, tapered or straight headtube, fat 170mm or normal 142mm spacing? Did you ask for handlebar, stem, headset? At least stem and headset you should negotiate for him to include.

180 for shipping is good, even more so if so get some freebies. That's around the price most people got their set.

Get an offset seatpost, chinese bikes are on the smaller side and a layback seatpost will help giving you more room, even if you aren't a bigger guy at all.

 

[TRB.206]

He dropped the price a few bucks
142mm spacing, tapered headtube, I asked for those parts and he didn’t acknowledge. He did say shipping is nearly double now during Covid so I’m happy with the price. I’ll be placing my order soon.

 

[Tommm]

He dropped the price a few bucks
142mm spacing, tapered headtube, I asked for those parts and he didn’t acknowledge. He did say shipping is nearly double now during Covid so I’m happy with the price. I’ll be placing my order soon.

In that case, I replaced my headset (didn't have to) and this is the one that fits.
https://aliexpress.com/item/32959633247.html

A lot of the time if you send multiple emails, he only reads and responds to the last one.
You should ask again for stem and headset though, headsets are included with most standalone frames sold anywhere.

https://elite-motor.com/pub/media/c...c7f93631a094422215b778fe0/e/l/elitedwg_1.jpeg
You can study this pic to build battery, shock can go up to 200 or 210, seatpost you need 31.8 from the laidback (offset) type.

 

[TRB.206]

Thanks for the help, I’ve concluded I won’t use PAS and am going the complete other route...MORE POWER!!! Lol

I’m leaning towards making my own cassette out of White Industries single speed sprockets. How do I do that?

LiteSpeedBikes says they’re not using QueenBee 26800 cells anymore due to quality control. So I’m getting a triangle battery built 20s7p by LiteSpeedBikes with Sony vtc6 cells and a 300amp BMS.

I’m going with the 72v Kelly KLS-S controller with 20 second burst at 200amp and 80amp continuous. 5760 watts continuous.

Using 27.5” wheelset but don’t know which one yet. Might build custom 12g rear wheel. Leaning towards Scwalbe Eddy Current tires.

DNM dv22ar rear shock but haven’t picked out a fork yet.

I’m 6’2 and Im curious about the bicycle geometry and how to make this thing handle 70mph as best as possible. Something like increasing the wheelbase, lowering the rear shock to increase head angle, using offset headset to angle the fork more, etc. should help. I’m even thinking of using a 26” in back and a 27.5” in front.

 

[Tommm]

Thanks for the help, I’ve concluded I won’t use PAS and am going the complete other route...MORE POWER!!! Lol

I’m leaning towards making my own cassette out of White Industries single speed sprockets. How do I do that?

LiteSpeedBikes says they’re not using QueenBee 26800 cells anymore due to quality control. So I’m getting a triangle battery built 20s7p by LiteSpeedBikes with Sony vtc6 cells and a 300amp BMS.

I’m going with the 72v Kelly KLS-S controller with 20 second burst at 200amp and 80amp continuous. 5760 watts continuous.

Using 27.5” wheelset but don’t know which one yet. Might build custom 12g rear wheel. Leaning towards Scwalbe Eddy Current tires.

DNM dv22ar rear shock but haven’t picked out a fork yet.

I’m 6’2 and Im curious about the bicycle geometry and how to make this thing handle 70mph as best as possible. Something like increasing the wheelbase, lowering the rear shock to increase head angle, using offset headset to angle the fork more, etc. should help. I’m even thinking of using a 26” in back and a 27.5” in front.

If you want max power you will need single speed 219 moto chain front and rear. CYC makes 219 chainrings that are bcd 104 compatible. You would need to figure out how to mount it on cassette(any machine shop can make you a shimano to bcd104, just make it thick, 5mm+) and a 219 tensioner.
You don't need more than a single speed if you have over 6-7kw. And in that case, go for a 40mph top speed, with ~52mph at field weakening.
You will have to do numerous cooling mods to the motor, which I wrote a few posts ago.

20s7p is a bit on the low side, I regret only going 20s8p, 20s9p would fit in my box easily and 20s10p too with a box designed for it ground up. For me a 200 cell GA setup would be the dream, 2.5kwh and 7.2kw peak. You don't need high discharge batteries if you go 20s10p, and get a useful range at higher speeds.

The kelly controller is nice, they only disclose phase currents. Battery currents are about the same as cont current. 80 and 120a controllers are a good match.

Head angle is already low as you'd ever want, I have it 63.2" same sized wheels and only a 170mm 26" fork and wheelbase is long too. 26" rear is fine, just make sure the hub is star ratchet system. If you want over 50mph you would need to think of moto wheels imho, and a triple crown fork.

 

[TRB.206]

Im not a fan of moto wheels, too heavy. Our fastest 2-stroke bicycles went up to 70mph for the last 3 years, with 12g spokes, double walled rims, Maxxis hookworms, and no report of high speed wheel failure. We’ve proven 12g wheels are good enough for most motorized bicycles. My ebike will still mostly be used on 25mph streets with the occasional sprint to 50-60ish. There are a couple roads around that I can safely test my speed on but they’re not roads I would take for long as they’re not scenic. Since this will be built for off-road and cruising at 50mph max(99% of the time) I’ll stick with bicycle wheels.

I’ll check out CYC sprockets, thanks.

I chose that battery pack because it could fit into a triangle bag and I’d like to be able to remove my battery easily as I store the bike in a public storage facility and bring the battery home to keep and charge. Im not entirely opposed to building a battery box though if I can remove the battery easily.

I want to build a cassette instead of using a single speed because I intend on turning the power down to 50% (40amps) or less for casual, “long” distance rides. I could use maybe 3 gears in back. If I went with single speed I would just do the belt drive on the left side. Or maybe....I stick to single speed in the rear and a triple chainring? Hmmmm. In that case what is the largest gap in teeth count for chainrings that a derailer can handle?

I still haven’t figured out how to post an image but the cadence calculator shows 22,34,46 chainrings and a 36 rear sprocket is a good fit with 34mph, 52mph and 73mph top speed in each gear and cruising speeds of 15,23 and 32 mph at 300rpm. CYC does not sell these sizes

 

[Tommm]

I’ll check out CYC sprockets, thanks.

I chose that battery pack because it could fit into a triangle bag and I’d like to be able to remove my battery easily as I store the bike in a public storage facility and bring the battery home to keep and charge. Im not entirely opposed to building a battery box though if I can remove the battery easily.

Cyc has 53, 63, 72 sizes. If you have 7kw peak, you are fine with 45mph lowest and 51 tallest, or even 60 for cruising at 40-60% of max rpm. The difference between these 3 cogs is quite small so it would make sense to have 53 front and 53/72 rear. Also, the less gears, the straighter the chainline.

You don't quite need a cassette, just an alu adapter from simano freehub to 104, make it thick, at least 5mm if alu and the 10.5mm chainring bolts. So you can just stick the two cogs on each side of the adaptor. Use plenty of locktite though or your bolts will go flying. :lol: I actually have an adapter like that, got it from a machinist on ebay.

Obviously you can't use a derailleur for this though unless you widen the cage and replace the cogs. You will need a tensioner roller, hooked up to the derailleur hanger.

Belt drive you will have to decide soon, because it is a different motor and rear triangle/adapter setup. The main benefit is it allows you to pedal while the motor is running at basically any speed. I don't really miss it, but it would certainly look cool, and almost silent.

The problem with triangle bags is the content can rattle around in it and damage itself. You would be better off with a hard case and some kind of belt mechanism holding it to the frame pipes, with a briefcase like handle on it. 20s8p will be 22lbs, 20s10p will be 25lbs.

 

[Chambers]

How does the motor mount?
I see it slides into the tube - but how is it fixed?

Sorry if this has already been covered.

Cheers

 

[Tommm]

How does the motor mount?
I see it slides into the tube - but how is it fixed?

Sorry if this has already been covered.

Cheers

It is held by friction after sliding in with tabs that have bolts in them. Not unlike a stem clamping onto the handlebar.

 

[Chambers]

Ah ok - like a split tube.

Thanks

 

[Sac037]

Does anyone have a photo of the 60amp controller
Underside ?
I blew some mosfets. And need to repair

 

[Jamesavery22]

..You don't quite need a cassette, just an alu adapter from simano freehub to 104, make it thick, at least 5mm if alu and the 10.5mm chainring bolts. So you can just stick the two cogs on each side of the adaptor. Use plenty of locktite though or your bolts will go flying. :lol: I actually have an adapter like that, got it from a machinist on ebay...

Get it from this guy? https://www.ebay.com/itm/352841004447

I got the same thing then got it anodized:

 

[hutorleon]

Hi, everybody. Has anyone solved the problem with the engine overheating? What is the maximum speed you can drive for a long time, so that the engine does not overheat? How many amps are set in your controller? I have a 72v 45ah 31700 20s6p battery, a 60A controller.

 

[Tommm]

Hi, everybody. Has anyone solved the problem with the engine overheating? What is the maximum speed you can drive for a long time, so that the engine does not overheat? How many amps are set in your controller? I have a 72v 45ah 31700 20s6p battery, a 60A controller.

I went last week 12 miles (19km) nonstop at about 30mph(48kph) average, with some stretches above 35mph (55kph). No issues with too much warming, it was just ok.
If you are going above it watch out, also, hot summer days in city, constantly slowing and accelerating, I got my hottest motor ever.

With only 2-2.5kwh to play with on these frames, it really doesn't make much sense to go faster, because your range will get even shorter.

You can set it to whatever you want, the motor can take almost anything peak, just not continuous.

 

[hutorleon]

Thanks. I want to do cooling, so as not to limit the power. I thought that someone has already done it and I want to see how. When you have a 4.8 kwt motor, you want to get all the power without restrictions.

 

[FredYellow]

I just mailed Paco and asked him if the new dual drive motor can be used in the elite frame, he said it can not.

Has anyone actually tried this?
As Tommm said you'd probably need a wider rear triangle. But exactly how wide if you want a 9 speed cassette on the right side.

Why would Paco say it's not possible?

I really think this newest version of the 4.8 kW motor has potential. A 219 chain on the left side with a fixed gear ratio, and a normal mtb 9 speed cassette on the right with cheap freewheel and chain.
Reliable, affordable, powerful, pedaling possible.

 

[Tommm]

I just mailed Paco and asked him if the new dual drive motor can be used in the elite frame, he said it can not.

Has anyone actually tried this?
As Tommm said you'd probably need a wider rear triangle. But exactly how wide if you want a 9 speed cassette on the right side.

Why would Paco say it's not possible?

I really think this newest version of the 4.8 kW motor has potential. A 219 chain on the left side with a fixed gear ratio, and a normal mtb 9 speed cassette on the right with cheap freewheel and chain.
Reliable, affordable, powerful, pedaling possible.

The reason it is not possible because the belt needs to be tensioned and perhaps belts are more finnicky to keep proper tension than chains. But since the belt cogs are mounted to bcd104, you could do a chain setup which is a piece of cake to tension.

The other is that the motor is quite wide but based on my checks it would be doable just fine with 170mm spacing rear triangle. The motor can be put anywhere laterally, so you would possibly need to give up on a few cogs on the cassette freehub to get the line straight, but many of us already do that anyway.

 

[FredYellow]

The reason it is not possible because the belt needs to be tensioned and perhaps belts are more finnicky to keep proper tension than chains. But since the belt cogs are mounted to bcd104, you could do a chain setup which is a piece of cake to tension.

I see. Swapping the belt for a heavy duty chain is something I would've done anyway for affroading durability, so no skin off my back there.

I just asked Paco and he said the new dual drive motor is in fact the same motor "just the gear box’s freewheel put reverse"
I asked if that means I can just order the normal 4.8kW motor and modify it myself to be dual drive, no machining or adapters needed?
He said yes. Can anyone who has this motor confirm this?

 

[FredYellow]

I researched this issue some more and I think I have it figured out. Hear me out and correct me if I'm wrong:

You can in fact use the normal Coaxial motor, but the freewheel inside the motor must be disabled (not reversed like Paco suggested). The pedal axle should have nothing to do with the motor, it should just spin any direction freely.

The next thing is to flip the motor so that the drive side is left. Then simply attach a heavy duty chainring (eg 219) to the 5 bolt motor-output. This means the motor will have to spin counter-clockwise (instead of clockwise as in normal operation). As this is an 3 phase AC motor I don't think this will affect anything performance-wise.

Now mount a square tapered crankset with chainring to the square tapered axle on the right side.


Does anyone see any issues with this?

This would mean the motor is always turning with the rearwheel, which can in theory enable regenerative braking. If you add a second chain tensioner on the topside.
Also now the cranks are disconnected from the motor you can simply choose a gear and pedal along with the bike at any speed your gears allow. Choose a very wide gear ratio so you can pedal at 15 to 50kmh.

 

[Tommm]

I researched this issue some more and I think I have it figured out. Hear me out and correct me if I'm wrong:

You can in fact use the normal Coaxial motor, but the freewheel inside the motor must be disabled (not reversed like Paco suggested). The pedal axle should have nothing to do with the motor, it should just spin any direction freely.

The next thing is to flip the motor so that the drive side is left. Then simply attach a heavy duty chainring (eg 219) to the 5 bolt motor-output. This means the motor will have to spin counter-clockwise (instead of clockwise as in normal operation). As this is an 3 phase AC motor I don't think this will affect anything performance-wise.

Now mount a square tapered crankset with chainring to the square tapered axle on the right side.


Does anyone see any issues with this?

This would mean the motor is always turning with the rearwheel, which can in theory enable regenerative braking. If you add a second chain tensioner on the topside.
Also now the cranks are disconnected from the motor you can simply choose a gear and pedal along with the bike at any speed your gears allow. Choose a very wide gear ratio so you can pedal at 15 to 50kmh.

Thanks for doing the research. I am interested in a similar hack once we have it figured out.
I think it is a little more complicated the motor spins on one side as default and the only chainring is on that side too.
The motor and crank chainrings are combined as default, if you just flip motor and freewheel, you will still have one chainring. I think you also need a whole crankset for square taper axle, preferrably one with bcd104 to use a cheap narrow wide ring.

There are also 2 freewheels. One inside motor to ensure you can pedal the shared chainring without motor and gearbox spinning, and one outside on chainring to ensure the motor can spin without the crank spinning.

I think paco is suggesting flipping the freewheel inside the motor as it would go to left hand drive.
If you need to disable the crank chainring on not, I am not sure. I think it could stay.

 

[FredYellow]

I think it is a little more complicated the motor spins on one side as default and the only chainring is on that side too.
The motor and crank chainrings are combined as default, if you just flip motor and freewheel, you will still have one chainring. I think you also need a whole crankset for square taper axle, preferrably one with bcd104 to use a cheap narrow wide ring.

That's exactly what I meant in my previous post, add a square taper crankset on the right side.

There are also 2 freewheels. One inside motor to ensure you can pedal the shared chainring without motor and gearbox spinning, and one outside on chainring to ensure the motor can spin without the crank spinning.

I think paco is suggesting flipping the freewheel inside the motor as it would go to left hand drive.

Great info I didn't realize there were two freewheels yet. Yes that is correct, the freewheel inside the motor needs to be reversed so you can pedal without the motor and gearbox turning. This means my previous comment about regen braking is incorrect (unless you make the freewheel inside the motor a fixed connection)

If you need to disable the crank chainring on not, I am not sure. I think it could stay.

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean disable the crank chainring freewheel? If so, yes it should be disabled so the cranks can turn independently from the motor.