How good is Cyclone 4kw coaxial suspension bike?
- Thread starter trappermike
- Start date
alexmaemur
100 µW
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2019
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- 8
Tommm said:
[youtube]j28r3yo7Oqg[/youtube]
I think you see it...
Can your bike it?
fizzit
10 kW
I just ordered the 4.8kw Elite frame. Seems like a solid and hopefully reliable base for a fast bike. I ordered last Friday and haven't heard from them yet, hoping to receive within the next month or so. How long did they take to assemble/ship your frames? Do they use air mail?
fizzit
10 kW
Tommm said:
Gotcha, hopefully they'll be in touch soon. I got the steel one, from my research it seems like it'll be lighter and handle better without the unsprung motor.
fizzit said:
Nice. They are quite competitive in weight if you keep the battery weight down to say 80 or 100 cells of 30q. You will find a wealth of information in this thread, in short, keep the RPM high and the torque low, use massive rear cogs to multiply the rpm back into wheel torque. There are a bunch of possible builds, but most of them have massive weaknesses.
Get a 30t bcd 104 up front, a 46t or 50t cassette rear from aliexpress, and you can't go too wrong with the rest. Ratchet syle hubs deal with high torque the best, forget pawl hubs. Also the less speeds the better, don't go over 9 spd if possible.
Headtube is tapered, rear shock you can comfortably fit 200mm eye to eye or even a 205mm trunnion if you can track one down, and with a 170mm front(look into x-fusion vengeance hlr coil used or new) you will have a nice, modern and slack 63' head angle. Go coil suspension for less maintenance. Good luck with the build and keep us posted if you want to know something.
fizzit
10 kW
Tommm said:
Are those cells what the cool kids are using these days? I was gonna go with RC LiPo as I have experience using it with my last ebike back in 2012. But I can tell that the battery world has changed since then so I'll have to read around more get up to speed.
Dang, didn't realize I should go up to 50t on the rear cogs. Thanks for the tips, I'll check those out.
This thread has been a great source of information and I definitely wouldn't have bought the frame without the info here, I really appreciate you and everyone else documenting their experiences with these kits. I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions once my frame shows up, they just let me know they'd be shipping it this week.
Stanislavchik
10 mW
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2016
- Messages
- 30
Hi all!
I'm making My first mid config with this drive and 22/32t sproket, resently ordered IGH stormey-archer 5speed without rear cog(sproket). Now I have 16S battery on my currend config witch I suppose to use. And What type of rear sprocket I must buy to get speed 75 km/h ang get long life of this IGH?
I'm making My first mid config with this drive and 22/32t sproket, resently ordered IGH stormey-archer 5speed without rear cog(sproket). Now I have 16S battery on my currend config witch I suppose to use. And What type of rear sprocket I must buy to get speed 75 km/h ang get long life of this IGH?
Stanislavchik said:
You will blow it up with the 22t in no time forget it, only use the 32t. For long life 3 speed SA IGH would be better. Anyway, for the 32t front for 75kph top speed you will want a 30t rear cog. You would get 75 in the highest gear and about 50kph in the 1:1 middle gear(you will be in this gear most of the time). This is without field weakening, which adds ~12-15% extra (called high speed in controller software, and requires a 3 speed switch).
Stanislavchik
10 mW
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- Nov 16, 2016
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Thanks Tom, yes I already have a nuclear controller with field weakening and what is the SA IGH you meant, stormey archer?
Jamesavery22
10 mW
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2019
- Messages
- 22
Is the switch you mention this one?Tommm said:
http://www.cyclone-tw.com/Parts.html
"3 speeds and cruise controller switch for cyclone controlelr 20USD"
That is needed if one wants that extra 12% boost from the controller that comes with the 4k coaxial kit?
Yes you can find it on ali too.Jamesavery22 said:Is the switch you mention this one?Tommm said:
http://www.cyclone-tw.com/Parts.html
"3 speeds and cruise controller switch for cyclone controlelr 20USD"
That is needed if one wants that extra 12% boost from the controller that comes with the 4k coaxial kit?
Jamesavery22
10 mW
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2019
- Messages
- 22
Thanks.Tommm said:
Jamesavery22
10 mW
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2019
- Messages
- 22
Tommm said:
Any chance you have a link to the part on Ali? Haven't found it yet. Does it have a different title?
I actually forgot about this thread:
https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/kits/cyclone-mid-drives/14653-cyclone-3-speed-wiring
I ended up putting a jumper on the 3 speed wire harness and skipped the switch. Will do the same for this controller.
Jamesavery22
10 mW
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2019
- Messages
- 22
Thanks again.
fizzit
10 kW
After a 2 month shipping delay caused by USPS losing my first kit, I finally received my Elite frame and coaxial motor at the end of October, built the bike at the beginning of November and started riding it 2 weeks ago. I've put about 50 miles on it and its been quite fun with no major issues. Thanks again to everyone who provided their experience in this thread, it was extremely helpful in getting things built up. Here's how it looks now:
I made the battery box from ABS sheets held together with 3D printed end caps and right angle brackets. The battery box is bolted and epoxied together on all sides except one, which is sealed with foam tape and can be pulled off by removing a few machine screws. Here's the inside of the box:
And here's the batteries before installation of the box:
I went with 18S 10AH of HobbyKing LiPo, which is connected to a JBD BMS that you can't see because it's behind the two blue bricks. The batteries are mounted on a 1/4" ABS plate which is held to the down tube by 2 of the M5 threaded holes in the frame, and 2 3D printed clamps. So far the battery mounting seems sturdy but I haven't hit any bumps bigger than a pothole.
In the first couple weeks of riding my biggest gripe was that the throttle was way too sensitive. With the stock throttle from the kit, there was a huge dead zone and then a very short turn from 0-35mph. To reduce the sensitivity I hooked up a microcontroller between the twist throttle and controller throttle input that reads one of the motor hall sensors to measure the RPM and create a sort of torque-control throttle.
For the drivetrain I went with an Aliexpress 11-50t rear cassette and 32t 104 BCD front chainring, per Tommmm's advice. At first I only used 1st gear, because this gives a 35mph top speed which is plenty for my use. The chainline is pretty curvy in 1st gear even with the motor pushed in far enough that the chain is less than 10mm from the tire, and yesterday I noticed the narrow teeth on my 32t chainring have already been worn down into knives. So clearly I need to shift out of 1st gear as soon as I can, and probably switch to a steel front chainring to give it a fighting chance. I would try using the stock 22t chainring but it sounds like the build quality on that is pretty poor.
I made the battery box from ABS sheets held together with 3D printed end caps and right angle brackets. The battery box is bolted and epoxied together on all sides except one, which is sealed with foam tape and can be pulled off by removing a few machine screws. Here's the inside of the box:
And here's the batteries before installation of the box:
I went with 18S 10AH of HobbyKing LiPo, which is connected to a JBD BMS that you can't see because it's behind the two blue bricks. The batteries are mounted on a 1/4" ABS plate which is held to the down tube by 2 of the M5 threaded holes in the frame, and 2 3D printed clamps. So far the battery mounting seems sturdy but I haven't hit any bumps bigger than a pothole.
In the first couple weeks of riding my biggest gripe was that the throttle was way too sensitive. With the stock throttle from the kit, there was a huge dead zone and then a very short turn from 0-35mph. To reduce the sensitivity I hooked up a microcontroller between the twist throttle and controller throttle input that reads one of the motor hall sensors to measure the RPM and create a sort of torque-control throttle.
For the drivetrain I went with an Aliexpress 11-50t rear cassette and 32t 104 BCD front chainring, per Tommmm's advice. At first I only used 1st gear, because this gives a 35mph top speed which is plenty for my use. The chainline is pretty curvy in 1st gear even with the motor pushed in far enough that the chain is less than 10mm from the tire, and yesterday I noticed the narrow teeth on my 32t chainring have already been worn down into knives. So clearly I need to shift out of 1st gear as soon as I can, and probably switch to a steel front chainring to give it a fighting chance. I would try using the stock 22t chainring but it sounds like the build quality on that is pretty poor.
fizzit said:
What, they lost one of these beauties? Did USPS compensate? Or did paco?
Tire clearance: Remove the 1 or 2 smallest cogs on the cassette. Now you can move the big cogs further out. If you don't have cassette spacers you can use the cogs as spacers too, but it might not be flush.
Front chainring: forget having 2 cogs front. The small one is too small, plus it is an integral part of the motor itself and very expensive to replace. Use it as a carrier for the 32t, put it as close to the 22t as possible while being able to tighten it. Use as many washers as you need. You might need to buy a set of extra long chainring bolts from ebay or ali. You can't put it ontop of the 22t(because of the teeth) but you can put it very close. So after the pedal bit it will be going back inside towards the motor.
Now you have a great chainline and can position back the motor to its correct spot.
Careful tightening the motor clamp as if it is too lose, the motor will turn inside the clamp and rip your cables. Too tight and you will destroy the clamp. The edges of the camps should look like this / \ not touching, but bent.
I have 2000km in the same cheap shiit $7 32t, and it is completely fine. The 22t will run you high as $80 because it is a welded made to order part. Forget using it as a chainring. Chainline is everything.
Btw 200mm*57mm is the biggest rear shock that will fit, or in theory a 205mm*65mm trunnion mount one. But those are rare and expensive. 10mm longer shock/travel translates to 20mm more ride height/travel.
If you want to use the internal cable routing, it is better to file/sand the inside of the hole because they will bite into your cables hard.
For the controller, the settings that worked for me to tame the throttle: Fast start 6 on street 8 offroad. Soft start off, adjust accelerator curve on.
If you are still not happy, you can buy a domino ebike throttle. Best in the game and there is a guide here how to put resistors on the cables to get it working.
If your bike starts to sit funny with the rear suspension bushes, it means they are probably destroyed because they are plastic, you can replace them with igus plastic bushings or copper coated bushings. Internal diameter is 8mm outer 10mm, better to buy ones with collars on one end. Length doesn't matter because the holes are not all the same so you will be filing some of them anyway.
Jamesavery22
10 mW
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2019
- Messages
- 22
Can you please give any more details on the throttle setup?
Jamesavery22 said:
Which one? For the domino you just need to search domino in this forum and it should come up, use the lowest rated ohm resistors that will get it working on both wires. (Buy a resistor assortment from ebay, $2-3 for a pack of 400 with 20 different types.)
Too low value on one wire will give you throttle fault as soon as you turn it on, too low value on the other wire will give you fault at full throttle. Keep moving up until it is reliable. Too high values will narrow the usable band. Third wire(I think black) is the ground, green wires are for the microswitch (optional).
For the software settings, you need the bluetooth app and then it is self explanatory.
fizzit
10 kW
Paco re-shipped it. He said something has changed and in the last couple months USPS lost 40% of his shipments. On the tracking it still shows that it arrived in San Francisco and is stuck. Might be able to get some money from USPS but I think he didn't get insurance so the max payout is $200.
Thanks much for the chainline tips. I will try that fix with the cassette spacers. In that case did you need to do anything special to your derailleur to move it out farther?
Good to know about the shock. I'll definitely look into upgrading that in the near future. I can already tell that the suspension bushings are wearing down, there's a noticeable slant of the bushing that goes through the upper eye of the shock.
Absolutely, unfortunately I don't have a picture (the microcontroller is inside the small black box) but I can describe it. I used a Particle Photon, because I had one around and you can program it over WiFi but the wireless functionality turned out to be useless because the controller can only supply ~40mA from the 5V line without dipping below 4.3V so I had to disable it. You could use another microcontroller without the WiFi to do exactly the same thing.
Anyways, the circuit is shown here:
The throttle goes into a resistive divider to bring it from 5V max to 3.3V max, and is connected to the ADC. The hall sensor has the same thing because it's 5V as well. It's not shown in the schematic, but I added a capacitor to filter the hall signal because it was really noisy. The throttle output that goes to the controller comes from the MCU DAC and goes into a simple op-amp circuit to bring it from 3.3V max to 5V max.
The firmware pretty much does the following:
Throttle out = k1 + (k2 * RPM) + (k3 * throttle in)
k1, k2, and k3 were calculated with some measuring and some experimenting. The full source code is below:
Code:
#include "application.h"
// Pin declarations
int throttle_pin = A0;
int hall_pin = D5;
int output_pin = DAC;
SYSTEM_MODE(MANUAL);
// Calculated coefficients
//float num_poles = 4;
//float motor_resistance = 0.054;
//float max_current = 60;
//float output_scale = 3000 / 72;
//float motor_kv = 62.5;
float rpm_to_out_scale = 0.08; // 0.11 measured
int output_offset = 800; // 640 measured
int max_output_val = 2600;
// RPM measurement variables
unsigned long hall_last_us = 0;
unsigned long hall_this_us;
float hall_period_float = 1000000;
float rpm_filtered = 0;
float rpm_filter_coeff = 0.1;
// Throttle voltage measurement variables
float throttle_voltage_filtered = 0;
float throttle_val_filtered = 0;
float throttle_filter_coeff = 0.3;
int throttle_min = 710;
int throttle_max = 3000;
// Output regulation variables
int max_output_increase = 50;
int current_output_val = 0;
char valueStr[30];
int i = 0;
void setup() {
pinMode(throttle_pin,INPUT);
pinMode(hall_pin,INPUT);
attachInterrupt(hall_pin, hall_interrupt, RISING);
WiFi.off();
RGB.brightness(2);
}
void loop() {
float rpm_meas = 60.f * 1000000.f / (hall_period_float + 0.01f);
average_filter(rpm_meas, rpm_filtered, rpm_filter_coeff);
int throttle_val = min(analogRead(throttle_pin), throttle_max);
average_filter(float(throttle_val), throttle_val_filtered, throttle_filter_coeff);
float output_fraction = (throttle_val_filtered - float(throttle_min)) / (float(throttle_max) - float(throttle_min));
float throttle_offset = 800.f * output_fraction;
float rpm_offset = rpm_to_out_scale * rpm_filtered;
int desired_output_val = output_offset + rpm_offset + throttle_offset;
if (throttle_val < throttle_min){
current_output_val = 687;
} else if (desired_output_val > max_output_val) {
current_output_val = max_output_val;
} else if ((desired_output_val - current_output_val) > max_output_increase){
if (i == 0) {
//sprintf(valueStr, "M RPM %f Tf %f Ov %d Ti %f", rpm_filtered, output_fraction, current_output_val, throttle_val_filtered);
//Particle.publish("beamStatus", valueStr);
}
current_output_val += max_output_increase;
} else {
if (i == 0) {
//sprintf(valueStr, "RPM %f Tf %f Ov %d Ti %f", rpm_filtered, output_fraction, current_output_val, throttle_val_filtered);
//Particle.publish("beamStatus", valueStr);
}
current_output_val = desired_output_val;
}
analogWrite(output_pin, current_output_val);
if (i == 40){
i = 0;
} else {
i++;
}
delay(25);
}
void hall_interrupt(){
hall_last_us = hall_this_us;
hall_this_us = micros();
if (digitalRead(hall_pin)){
if (hall_this_us > (hall_last_us + 3000)){
hall_period_float = hall_this_us - hall_last_us;
}
}
}
void average_filter(float current_value, float &history_value, float coefficient){
history_value = history_value + (current_value * coefficient);
history_value /= (1.f + coefficient);
}fizzit said:
You should call them, sometimes it will get stuck if the address is damaged, if the tracking number is intact they can find and update it for you.
For my package they had one of the tubes hanging out and sanding off the paint, I don't think it is packed as well as it should be for the weight and travel distance for the package.
I would ask for a payout even if it was $50, don't reward the animals for losing a package.
fizzit said:
No, just need to adjust the limit screws on it make sure you can't shift over the big cogs and adjust the Y screw to give clearance.
The motor should sit about 10mm inside the mount on the drive side when you do the chainring adjustment (a must have). The pedals should stick out about equally on both sides.
fizzit said:
If you take apart the suspension, there are some things to consider. There are black roller plastics on the axles, they look the same but 2 are longer and 2 are shorter. If you mix them your suspension will be leaning. I would also put some extra large surface area washers next to them on the inside to reduce possibility of play in the system.
Other than the axle, if you undertighten the bolts you will have play, if you overtighten them you will seize the suspension, you must have threadlock or the bolts will unwind themselves. Tighten it just enough to start increasing friction without a load on it, you won't notice it when you ride. Grease is a good idea but you will need to take care for the threadlock and grease not to mix when poking them through. Ear cleaning tools will help soaking it up.
When screwing the linkage arms togeather if it becomes more difficult to turn before two holes and the bushes are slotted in, you should stop, because you are sitting on the shoulder instead of inside the hole and you are chewing up the bushes(essentially threading them).
Also, if you removed the top suspension axle half way through, don't even let the weight of the bike rest on the suspension or the leverage will oval out the hole in the alu sideplate.
Stuff mentioned
Long chainring bolts
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5pcs-Extra-long-Triple-Chainring-Bolts-Nuts-Spacers/273705825204
Chainring
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UK-Single-30T-Round-6-Colors-Narrow-Wide-Chainring-104bcd-MTB-Road-Bike-bolts/264261185004
Crank extractor
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Bicycle-Crank-Wheel-Puller-Remover-Repair-Extractor-Mountain-Tool-Removal-UK/184003197912
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