How would you write ideal ebike regulations

[Tench]

Out of interest does anyone who has responded in this thread ride an ebike that would be considered completely legal for road use in their country without flicking your limiter switch! ?

 

[LockH]

One here

 

[teklektik]

Out of interest does anyone who has responded in this thread ride an ebike that would be considered completely legal for road use in their country without flicking your limiter switch! ?

Of course.
My bike runs 3300W - 40mph. Perfectly legal in my state.

I've been through police managed construction zones, driven up to and chatted with officers at public functions, passed cop cars, and even had the police straighten up the bars and escort me home after an accident. No problems at all - Life is Good.

I could legally goose it up to 3750W - but the build won't take the abuse.

Of course, if I ride 3 ft over the state line into New York, any ebike is completely illegal on the road... strange world, isn't it?

 

[LockH]

"...bike runs 3300W - 40mph"

Ummm... Many folks in North America are now urban, many with no sig hills to deal with on a daily basis. In Canada, Fed (and most "states" - provinces) laws set only 500W continuous and in the province of Ontario, the motor is limited to 32kmh (US maybe 20mph but you can pedal faster where easy and legal and safe to do so.) I understand the US Fed power limit is 750W? I am only interested in stamping out the 20th-century gasoline/diseasal-powered horseless carriage. The electric bicycle seems to me one "perfect storm" for the car manufacturing industry. But I am not convinced "bigger,faster" (pricier, perhaps easier to kill yourself, others, small puppies, etc., etc.) is the best way forward. If I understand things correctly, it is seniors leading the "Ebike Revolution"(?) in Europe at least, and in many countries, I don't believe "3300W - 40mph" is legal. Or sensible. Or sane. It might be hard to know who is whining more... the automotive manufactures, gasoline/diseasal gas stations, used car dealerships, etc., or the hospital "industry"... about the loss of jobs. Mercedes Benz is already aboard with their SMART products. Perhaps they might expand their product line to the LESS SMART series of vehicles. Can anyone here suggest how dumb MB might go, to satisfy the North American markets?

 

[teklektik]

"...bike runs 3300W - 40mph"

Ummm... the motor is limited to...(US maybe 20mph but you can pedal faster where easy and legal and safe to do so.) I understand the US Fed power limit is 750W?
...
I don't believe "3300W - 40mph" is legal.

Whether you personally choose to believe it's legal or not, it is.
Road use is governed by the individual states. There is no 'US Fed power limit of 750W' for USE - you are offering opinions about laws in other countries that you clearly don't understand.

 

[LockH]

Twit. I know only Canadian laws and what I read about around the world (but don't "collect"/remember, there are many varieties, yes?). But BEYOND LEGALITIES, the subject of this thread is IDEAL EBIKE REGULATIONS. And there are many here on/in this ALT UNIVERSE, some of whom stumbled across electric traction MANY YEARS AGO. There is a great depth of knowledge here about the TECHNOLOGY, but maybe less knowledge about to "insert" the tech into "modern" life, as it has developed since humans gave up using the horse and other animals as motive power for their vehicles and carts, etc. I am NOT interested in perpetuating old rules and perspectives (watt some might conclude haven't worked very well so far (unless you are a shareholder in Land Rover, BMW, Mercedes Benz, etc. See the ES thread "List (Thread) of folks that HATE the electric bicycle", here
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53226

 

[friendly1uk]

I think the currant eu regs adequate, but there should be an additional class. Leave 14yo kids and mobility users as they are, and allow the licensed to go a little faster. Gotta be real about it though, and set speed limits for sidewalks and cycle lanes. That is like drawing an enforceable line in the sand.

Parts of europe already have such a system. Perhaps it mirrors the 20mph US bikes. I don't know. I would be happy with 20mph and one horse power (~750w). Horses can go on the road. It only seems fair.

If your bike can do 31mph, It has already outgrown the allowance given to a motorcycle learner after passing basic training. There is no question of whether it's time to get a license. You have already missed one.

You have to pass a test to do 30mph and the machine needs regular health checks and insuring. It must also carry L plates to signify it is a Learner driver. They won't let us jump on something that can do 25mph. Maybe 20mph with a 25Kg limit.

 

[LockH]

"I think the currant eu regs adequate, but there should be an additional class."
Which ignores the subject of this thread. So, you propose more maybe broken laws?

 

[friendly1uk]

Damn. I saw you had posted and hoped I would know what your on about. Who is this Watt character, and do you propose to just stop using all rules, freeing our society from all criminals at the stroke of a pen?

 

[LockH]

Re "watt". Message above fixed ("watt" replaced with the word "Which")

"...and do you propose to just stop using all rules, freeing our society from all criminals at the stroke of a pen?"

See again subject of this thread. Might we agree the current "rules" in North America maybe should be changed? And that the English word "ideal" requires an open mind?

 

[LockH]

Two messages I posted earlier in this thread. First:

"...what's the big deal about a bike going 35 mph?"

No problem! Except that sometimes vehicles "misbehave" (and animals and people too. At least most plants can be trusted to move not very fast)?

I suppose some humans can sprint (on foot) pretty fast (usually for some short time/distance), but the subject here is perhaps wheeled transportation (that we all know and love)?

And "safety" is a subject usually near and dear to most animals? (Injury or death to be avoided maybe. It's bad enough to do some "damage" to ones self or those we care about, worse still to do any harm, or "inconvenience" others (amimals, plants or others property).

I've been travelling all my life. At first on four limbs perhaps, then on two (and I can still get to most places nearby on two feet/legs. May just take longer, esp depending on distances involved.)

So there's no doubt animals like to travel (for work/hunting/food gathering and for play, etc). I have a first name and my DNA that suggest some in my family were sailors (as recently as myself and my father, and I myself have travelled many thousands of miles on the surface of the water using solar(wind) power), but the subject here is wheeled transportation on land (that I have sailed on as well, and I have sailed across ice covering water.)

So "ebike regulations" are just a subset of wheeled land vehicle transportation rules? (While it seems we're on the subject of "classifying" things generally.)

Falling back on physics (sorry `bout that), the smaller (lighter) a wheeled vehicle, the easier (and cheaper aka "more energy efficient") a vehicle is to accelerate and decelerate, and handle while in motion or stopped, yes? (And when "things go wrong" - things always "go wrong" - see "wearing out", yes?)

So. Do we continue to try to classify things used to assist land travel (vehicles that use one or more wheels - I have ridden a pedalled unicycle too, once several miles one morning), or could we lump them all together perhaps, with regard to the *safety of others*?

Watt gets back to my original point.
L

And then:

OK then... Perhaps folks on the Spheroid Planet might agree on the thought that the gov issues a license for the *operator* of a vehicle (any vehicle, same lic), and said license is printed the same way as Canada currently prints "paper" currency (they don't use paper any more, plus "embed" on/in each bill various difficult to copy "inkmarks" or wattever.) In other words, "wallet sized" w/a pic of the operators face plus the name and city of somebody that issued that doc. And licenses are only handed out after... for example one year of studying and operating various land-based vehicles/.

Any land-based vehicle operator found not having a legit op license on their person (could be imbedded under their skin)... There is one graduated penalty. First offence, one finger or toe (of their choice). Second offence, one more digit. Having had all fingers and toes removed, one ear. This approach is cheaper than branding plus vehicle rental companies be circumspect more who they rent to (eg charge more (and rebate some, for good behaviour such as maint receipt records - sorry, accountant in me speaking).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_branding

Plus DogMasters canine friends get all the munchies they might like. Diff added flavours at some small extra cost. Exotic (foreign) bits, small extra cost.

Lots of folks would object to this approach... "Draconian", etc, etc, perhaps depending on how many pets, family members, neighbours, co-workers, (taxpayers),etc etc they have either lost completely or who have been "inconvenienced" (for the rest of their life) by unthinking vehicle operators.

WITH AN *OPEN* MIND, would a comprehensive "boot camp" AKA SCHOOL (FOLLOWED BY SUCCESSFULL COMPLETION OF A COMPREHENSIVE EXAM) maybe change the situation dramatically? (Make some folks respect their neighbours/PUBLIC (not spelt as "pubic" followed in brackets with a question mark) SPACE used for wheeled travel more and value more highly the vehicle license they carry around with them.)
L
PS. AGAIN, MAYBE EXISTING RULES DO NOT "WORK"?

 

[LockH]

I HAVE LIVED FOR MANY YEARS IN A "CAR FREE" COMMUNITY, AND IT WAS GREAT. (MANY TODAY DECRY FOLKS THAT LIVE THERE AS "SQUATTERS", THOUGH I SUPPOSE MANY ARE JUST JEALOUS OF AN EXISTANCE LIKE THAT.) APPROX 100 YEARS AGO IN THE WHOLE OF NORTH AMERICA THERE WERE LESS THEN ONE THOUSAND "HORSELESS CARRIAGES", BY MOST ESTIMATES. IS TRAVEL AND "LIFE" IN NORTH AMERICA REALLY "BETTER" TODAY? REALLY?

 

[LockH]

SURE WE HAVE "PROGRESSED", BUT AT WHAT COSTS?

 

[LockH]

BIG HINT: THE LIST OF COSTS IS HUGE

 

[zener]

I think the currant eu regs adequateLOL, you want basicaly not a city free of car smog!
, but there should be an additional class. Leave 14yo kids and mobility users as they are, and allow the licensed to go a little faster. Gotta be real about it though, and set speed limits for sidewalks and cycle lanes. That is like drawing an enforceable line in the sand. Yeah and DIY not alowing and make it 2k for a driver license......and limits.... and limits.....

Parts of europe already have such a system. Perhaps it mirrors the 20mph US bikes. I don't know. I would be happy with 20mph and one horse power (~750w). Horses can go on the road. It only seems fair. Horses can ride on any street in mostly any EU coutry. YEP and they can get spooked from a car horn and than go balistic with a mass of 300kg and power of 13KW horses have not 1HP (google it) . And than to be fair limit the not smok producing ebikes to uselessness which are controled by a human....2014 we have LOL

If your bike can do 31mph, It has already outgrown the allowance given to a motorcycle learner after passing basic training. There is no question of whether it's time to get a license. You have already missed one. Lycras too? you driving downhill too?

PS: again similar car driver with 150HP machine thinks "i must overtake for any price".
Who makes sure that he or she never again becomes a driver license ?
[youtube]J5hGV3smgNg[/youtube]

 

[Eskimo]

Germans basically already got it right with their 45km/h/28 mp/h fast-pedelec regulation. All EU-countries should just follow that with exception that throttle is allowed. 1000W is a good power limit for 28 mp/h. This regulation is already in harmony with gas-moped law too. If mopeds are allowed to go 45 km/h on MUT"s, then should E-bikes be too. This speed is also pretty well in harmony with that MAMIL crowd, their speed.
Pretty simple actually. We basically have a good law already, let"s just use it everywhere. 45 km/h is the speed which i personally consider as a safe limit for MUT"s and standard frames/brakes.
Faster bikes should be allowed to use roads, or use this speed as as speed limit on places where you can let her sing. My city has just started to build expensive and extensive bicycle-MUT bahn network, that will be like bicycle autobahns basically, wide main arteries.
25 km/h on those wide and straight lanes would be just laughable.

 

[LockH]

"...uselessness which are controled by a human"
HA HA! Controlled by, or CAUSED BY? It may seem to some that some (many perhaps born in and brought up in and living in North America) may be ADDICTED to BIGGER and FASTER (have drunk the Kool-Aid - many here may not know watt (WHAT) I am talking about. Perhaps they might read Wicked Pedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_the_Kool-Aid

Perhaps STOOPIDER might be added to that list?

...and while visiting Wickedpedia, jump over (Caution to any readers! May require a thing called an "attention span"!!!) here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Islands

From there, in part:

The islands comprise the largest urban car-free community in North America, though some service vehicles are permitted.

I know! For "ideal ebike regulations", lets start by removing the car from the equation? (Anybuddy here think that might not improve some aspects of the ebiking experience?)

Well, I KNOW "removing the car from the equation" is silly?

But the title/subject of this thread might be re-stated as "regulations that might make travel by ebike safer, ideally"?

So... Is the carnage on North American roads caused all by little old gentlemen pushing their carts? Or?

But obviously it may be safer for some to ignore the obvious `cause it can "make their heads hurt" or interfere with the "game" on their TV...

 

[zener]

Officialy ist called 45km/h but they all drive 50km/h and still be legal.
But i prefer more the old 60km/h limit wich they reduced over the years from 60 to 50 to 45 LOL
60km/h is needed in city to drive in car traffic without being constantly dangerouse overtaken.

The german S-Pedelec is just pee in my eyes
over 20 km/h is forced pedal by law
45km/h max and 500watt max + trailers are not allowed. + driverlicense(about1k) + DIY not allowed + driving on bicycle ways not allowed *germanLOL

Thats the best thing any city could do building a secound infrastructure for light wight 2 wheelers away from the destructive and smok producing car/truck traffic.
I am sure i come and visit this MUT-bicyclebahn in helsinki when finished.

 

[LockH]

PS. Yes to what Eskimo said! (But sadly, many here may be from North America, where some might say ya have to write slowly, but carry a big (really big) stick.)

(Might also maybe help to have some nice snacks in one pocket saved "for contingencies")

 

[dogman dan]

Sheesh Lock, I use an occasional full caps for emphasis, but that's a bit much.

Back to a question asked a few rants ago, my state, I feel I have a street legal vehicle in my state.

New Mexico has a pretty funny law. Ebikes are not mentioned at all, but a bike may have a helper engine of 49cc or less. If you turn that into electric, then for my state 3000w should be legal. 5 hp is quite possible for 49cc, and 3000w is 4 hp. The law does not say a HP limit though, so potentially there is NO watt limit. I doubt most judges would see it quite that way, but I bet under 5 hp, they could be convinced.

I also have a speed limit of 30 mph, and must have a valid drivers license of any class.

I have a valid license, and even the motorcycle endorsement too. Check

My bike is currently running at 48v 40 amps. The max I ever see on a CA is 2000w, so I feel that is well under the equivalent to 49cc. Check.

My bike can go 33 mph at times. But rarely actually does. It will hit 33 mph when my battery voltage is 58v, but that only lasts a few blocks. 95% of any trip, the bike can go 28-29 mph. Far as I am concerned, that passes. Check.

I feel my bike is legal, as I ride it, in my state.

 

[LockH]

Hey, Alexei Sayle gets a buzz out of ebikes... here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/columnists/alexei-sayle/10603985/Alexei-Sayle-Why-electric-bicycles-get-me-buzzing.html

Electric bicycles could be the future of cycling, if we can overcome our cultural resistance, says Alexei Sayle.

CORRECTION Alexei please? The future of cycling, AND THE FUTURE OF MOTORING.

 

[LockH]

Somebuddy here wrote me about this thread, in part:

Motor vehicles are safer than ever at increasingly higher speeds on controlled access interstate highways. This is a good thing in that context. The problems start when people try to use their high-speed-capable motor vehicles in urban settings and expect to exploit their vehicles' speed capabilities there and retain the privileged vehicular status conferred by the access control on the interstates.

They need to be inculcated with the different mindset that anywhere other than the interstate, they are second-class road users that must defer to the more vulnerable road users. I like The Netherland's legal approach.

(Perhaps left unsaid... take the human creatures out of the equations for control of vehicles on the urban parts of the trip.)

 

[cal3thousand]

Here's my take... let's make it easy to determine. For both us and the lawmen.

Other vehicles are limited not on potential, but kinetic. Same should apply for ebikes. I don't give a flying "F" how fast your bike or car CAN go. The law should apply to how fast you DO go.

Can I (with enough money) buy a car that will go 4X the normal highway speed limit? YES (see Bugatti Veyron)

Should it be illegal just to own or drive one? NO

Should it be illegal to drive 60mph on 35mph road? YES and it shouldn't matter if you did it in a car or ebike or on the back of a cheetah!

Roads have speed limits, they should be for ALL vehicles using that particular road (emergency vehicles exempt, of course)

Why does this have to be difficult and require all this "class" non-sense? It's not like we're all racing here.

EDIT

Let me also add that the sidewalk should have a speed limit as well. You should be able to ride your bike or ebike on the sidewalk as long as you don't exceed the sidewalk's speed limit of 10 mph.

 

[Willow]

agreed Cal.

 

[amberwolf]

I understand the US Fed power limit is 750W?

No such thing. You might wanna look at the ES wiki that discusses (and links to discussions/sites) of the various existing rules, for the USA at least.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/Definitions_(legal)_of_an_Electric_Bicycle

Out of interest does anyone who has responded in this thread ride an ebike that would be considered completely legal for road use in their country without flicking your limiter switch! ?

All of mine are. The only limitation in AZ is that it be operated under 20MPH, and otherwise fit the definition of a bicycle here (which is pretty loose--if it's got 3 or less wheels in contact with the ground at once, though the motorized version specified bicycle or tricycle so I guess Justin can't bring his powered unicycle here. But...even racing wheelchairs (though not *regular* wheelchairs?) are specifically stated to be bicycles here in AZ!
"ebike" definition, such as it is:
http://www.azleg.gov/search/oop/qfullhit.asp?CiWebHitsFile=/ars/28/02516.htm&CiRestriction=bicycle
Bicycle definition:
http://www.azleg.gov/search/oop/qfullhit.asp?CiWebHitsFile=/ars/28/00101.htm&CiRestriction=bicycle
Bicycle equipment:
http://www.azleg.gov/search/oop/qfullhit.asp?CiWebHitsFile=/ars/28/00817.htm&CiRestriction=bicycle
http://www.azleg.gov/search/oop/qfullhit.asp?CiWebHitsFile=/ars/28/00813.htm&CiRestriction=bicycle

Might we agree the current "rules" in North America maybe should be changed? And that the English word "ideal" requires an open mind?

Remember that first there is no single set of rules for NA, and that even individual cities sometimes have different regulations and laws about them than others within the same county, state, etc. Many don't even agree on what a *bicycle* is, much less one with a non-human power source.


And that "ideal" will also mean differnet things to different people. But "ideally", to me, Cal3thousand basically has it right: if it's a bicycle, motor or no, the only "limitation" I would put on it is that you obey all the same rules as every other vehicle on a road, including the speed limit there. So if it's 55MPH, and your bicycle can do that speed, you should be allowed to attempt it. I personally don't feel that's safe, but there are those that do, and if they are equipped for those speeds, go right ahead.


If someone did sit down to write a full set of regulations for them, they'd probably end up restricting the physical functionality of even regular bicycles. For instance: some areas define a bicycle as something that must have a saddle that must be ridden astride, and it must be between certain distances from the ground. That automatically eliminates many, perhaps all, recumbent types. Some limit the weight, which eliminates a number of cargo bikes, trikes, etc., even before you add any kind of assist to them. Some limit the number and size of wheels, and some don't have much of any physical definition of what a bicycle itself actually is.


For those interested, go here:
http://bikelaws.org/
and see some of the stuff that needs to be fixed long before we worry about *ebike* regulations: we have to fix *bike* regulations first!