HS3540 BOSS BUILD. Now H4065 Boss Build

[litespeed]

I just weighed my built wheel with tire and had a work out doing it. I use a fish scale and it's really accurate comparing it to my postage scale on things up to 11 lbs. My 4065 with Psycho rim, 12g spokes, Maxxis DH tube, Maxxis Mobster 2.7 DH tire (50-60% tread!), 7 speed free wheel and 203 rotor all weigh in a portly 25 lbs 7 oz. Man I need to get this thing done!

Tom

 

[Trackman417]

what about 2 of these in series?

2k ohm ntc thermister
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=RN3436
i think justin said something about using two in series to get the right resistance. you could put them in diferent spots on the coils to get a more average/accurate messurement.

Well a 2K thermosister is already is already in the motor. Unless if you want to get 4 more of these in the motor making it a total of a 10k thermosistor? Huh :? . That's news to me, however I don't want all of those extra wires in the motor to begin with lol. Guess it will be one of those options I wont ever use. I am not pushing too much power, unlike some people, so I won't worry about it.

Nice build..came in late here/...subscribed

Hey NeilP, hope you can stick around and give some input or suggestions.

I just weighed my built wheel with tire and had a work out doing it. I use a fish scale and it's really accurate comparing it to my postage scale on things up to 11 lbs. My 4065 with Psycho rim, 12g spokes, Maxxis DH tube, Maxxis Mobster 2.7 DH tire (50-60% tread!), 7 speed free wheel and 203 rotor all weigh in a portly 25 lbs 7 oz. Man I need to get this thing done!

Tom

I just ordered a rim set from High Power Cycles that they use on their very own bikes. Expecting it sometime next week. I'll lace the motor up weigh it and see if it fits in my current bike and sell the H3540, if the 4065 fits on my bike. If it doesn't I'll sell the 4065 instead and call it a day .

On another note, when I weighed the motor, I found a piece of chipped paint around the area where the spokes go and it started rusting a bit . Good news, the rust doesn't look too deep, mostly surface rust but anyone know how I should take care of this problem? My thoughts where WD-40 (Of course) and light rubbing with a brillo pad to scrap the rust off. I want to be as little invasive as I can so I don't screw up the awesome paint job. After the rust is cleared up, does anyone know what I can use to keep the rust out, like latex paint or something?

 

[pendragon8000]

Sorry, totally misread the thermiser comment before. I see what you're saying now....
Are you going to run a CA v3 or something?
....
Here's a post from Justin about CA thermistor resistance
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37964&p=583168&hilit=thermistor#p583168

 

[Trackman417]

Sorry, totally misread the thermiser comment before. I see what you're saying now....
Are you going to run a CA v3 or something?
....
Here's a post from Justin about CA thermistor resistance
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37964&p=583168&hilit=thermistor#p583168

Umm no I am not going to run the CA v3. I am not as tech savvy as those talking on the CA v3 thread. I will wait until everybody has made there mistakes and perfected the software. I am doing to save myself from utter destruction.
Thanks for the link. I will have to find a way to get the temp to be displayed. Why kenny used such a weird thermosistor is beyond me. :?
Anyone have any ideas with the motor rust situation, will my proposed idea work?

 

[Trackman417]

Alrighty guys, well heres the rust.
I am going to sick some WD-40 on it and see if I can polish the rust right off then cover it with something. lol
It't better then nothing, that's for sure

 

[Trackman417]

Well that was probably the fastest job I have ever done on anything ebike related. I am almost blown away how every little task takes hours on end. Not to mention the screw ups because lack of thinking.
I ended up polishing off the rust after letting the WD40 work its magic for a couple of minutes. Came right off and the paint is in good condition as well . After that, I put some di-electric grease on the spot to keep unwanted water out. It is a temporary solution but I might keep it. The grease is clear so I can check on it regularly to see if the rust is coming back or not and plan accordingly.

 

[sendler2112]

100v is too twitchy for me to care about, and it heats up the motor unnecessarily.

I'm curious about your experience with running an HS3540 at 100v. It seems that not many have tried it. Can you tell us more about what it was like?

 

[pchen92]

On a 20" BMX rim @ 90V the hs becomes a beast

 

[sendler2112]

On a 20" BMX rim @ 90V the hs becomes a beast

Any problems? Any reason not to do it as long as you experiment slow at first and watch the temperatures? Oil cooling is an easy mod on the HS3540. I don't see any efficiency draw back to higher voltage with these hub motors while playing with the hub motor simulator. As long as you don't fry it with too much power. You will be using much less of your throttle travel though which might make it pretty jumpy without a Cycle Analyst to recurve the throttle response.

 

[pchen92]

I don't install a thermometer inside but I think I keep it at a safe temp ( lower than 100-120°C on longest rides in the forest).
The throttle is quite touchy. I may try the cycle-analyst throttle mod for my new motor (cromotor) because I jumped from a 12 fets to a 24 fets controller. Hope it will work good.

 

[Trackman417]

100v is too twitchy for me to care about, and it heats up the motor unnecessarily.

I'm curious about your experience with running an HS3540 at 100v. It seems that not many have tried it. Can you tell us more about what it was like?

It was like fully charged 20S lipos, except a lot more acceleration and a 3-5 mph difference. So for the extra 1KW I am dumping into the motor, I get 5 extra mph? But the batteries were able to go further on a single charge. I did an 8 mile rip-it-up fest using 70% throttle, which yielded 40mph and I was able to go 8 miles on a charge at WOT. So if you want extreme range, go extreme voltage and more amp-hours . I like that.
After wards the motor was nice and toasty, couldn't keep my hands on it for more then a couple seconds. Just to make sure I didn't cook the magnets, the next day I did a KV test and found the KV hadn't dropped at all from the H-series motors tested at the grin cyclery .

I don't install a thermometer inside but I think I keep it at a safe temp ( lower than 100-120°C on longest rides in the forest).
The throttle is quite touchy. I may try the cycle-analyst throttle mod for my new motor (cromotor) because I jumped from a 12 fets to a 24 fets controller. Hope it will work good.

Yeah that ought to be good...... Just don't stall the cromotor and you shall be good 8) .

 

[pendragon8000]

It was like fully charged 20S lipos, except a lot more acceleration and a 3-5 mph difference. So for the extra 1KW I am dumping into the motor, I get 5 extra mph? But the batteries were able to go further on a single charge. I did an 8 mile rip-it-up fest using 70% throttle, which yielded 40mph and I was able to go 8 miles on a charge at WOT. So if you want extreme range, go extreme voltage and more amp-hours . I like that.

More volts means more top speed. More kw means more acceleration off the line. At top speed you would definately not be pulling high amps (going on flat road with no wind). A cycle analyst would be a good addition. They can limited power with the different mode settings you can have high power and efficiency mode, also see how much power you are using and change your power limit according to what you need/want, rather than what the motor will consume with out a limit(heating motor andwaisting watt hours of battery/range)

 

[Trackman417]

It was like fully charged 20S lipos, except a lot more acceleration and a 3-5 mph difference. So for the extra 1KW I am dumping into the motor, I get 5 extra mph? But the batteries were able to go further on a single charge. I did an 8 mile rip-it-up fest using 70% throttle, which yielded 40mph and I was able to go 8 miles on a charge at WOT. So if you want extreme range, go extreme voltage and more amp-hours . I like that.

More volts means more top speed. More kw means more acceleration off the line. At top speed you would definately not be pulling high amps (going on flat road with no wind). A cycle analyst would be a good addition. They can limited power with the different mode settings you can have high power and efficiency mode, also see how much power you are using and change your power limit according to what you need/want, rather than what the motor will consume with out a limit(heating motor andwaisting watt hours of battery/range)

I have the CA and yeah the amps were flowing man 8) . Maybe in a higher torque motor it would not chew through so many amps, but with my high speed wound motor it sure did. Whether all of those amps were being pulling for heat or motion.

In other news I got the motor all laced up. I guess the correct terminology is my LBS got it laced up . I gave it a shot and after 8 spokes I gave up. Nothing would work in the way of getting the spokes into the rim. Even the guy who laced wheel for his entire life said it was a challenge. How do you guys lace your hubs? I can imagine it being easier with a smaller hub but not huge hubs like crystalytes. At this point it doesnt matter who laced it. Here is the one pic I took of the thing.

Mounted it on the bike, which was sooooo easy now that I installed a master link. Now I don't have to get a chain around the axel and the sprockets. Makes install of the motor a 2 second job. Master links are my new favorite thing that should be standard on all bikes.
I also took the motor for a 2 foot WOT experience. Even with all of the voltage sag at 32 degrees F. It picked up the front tire . I said that was enough and parked the bike back into the garage until the spring
Guess I got my motor running first, take that LITESPEED

 

[pendragon8000]

What is this master link? A drop out plate or something?

 

[MAGICPIE3FOCUSPOWER]

Quick release for removing/installing chain.

 

[Trackman417]

Yeah. It doesn't sound like much, but you can't tell me your chain hasn't gotten in the way of installing your hub motor. I know it has. Now it's a quick and easy solution to install the hub and put the chain back on and ride.

 

[litespeed]

I also took the motor for a 2 foot WOT experience. Even with all of the voltage sag at 32 degrees F. It picked up the front tire . I said that was enough and parked the bike back into the garage until the spring
Guess I got my motor running first, take that LITESPEED

Yea, yea, yeah! I know! I finally got mine going and for more than 2 feet although mine did the same wheelie yours did. This bike is amazing now. I feel like I have finally crossed over to a real E-bike.

I only did a total of 5 miles but at 30 degrees that felt like -30 degrees I may have to wait till spring too!

Tom

 

[GCinDC]

'sup trackmeister. just catching up w/ your thread a bit. saw a couple q's about the temp wire. is it just one wire coming out? if so, you've got a couple options (that I know of):

1. attach it to CA V3, per the instructions in that thread and have the CA retard your throttle when the bitch gets hot, but as far as i know, it doesn't display temps anywhere... if i'm wrong, someone please post the link to the post where the CA shows temp...

2. replace the existing sensor with an LM35 (and tap the hall GND/+ wires inside and then outside the motor (so you don't have to thread new wires thru the motor. this way, you just reuse the one existing wire that comes out (the other is attached to hall GND or + inside the motor i think).

then you can mount the temp monitor i gave you.

3. insert new wires for BBQ type temp sensor. good thread somewhere on different versions.

if there are other options, please let me know... i know someone was looking at a wireless temp sensor on the sidecover, but i'm not sure how reliable that would be..

btw, how's that old hs3540? nice paperweight or did you get rid of it?

 

[Trackman417]

Yea, yea, yeah! I know! I finally got mine going and for more than 2 feet although mine did the same wheelie yours did. This bike is amazing now. I feel like I have finally crossed over to a real E-bike.

I only did a total of 5 miles but at 30 degrees that felt like -30 degrees I may have to wait till spring too!

Tom

Ah, that feeling wont get old for a while, I can tell. I am thinking about modding the shunt on my controller to let more than 40 amps of battery be fed into the motor. I want to aim for around 60 battery amps, that ought to be interesting.
I also want to show people in my area what electric vehicles can really do, and tell them that they aren't slow or heavy, by doing power wheelies onto my back .
I just can't wait until the weather gets warmer for what could be the best summer ever... Until I sell the bike if need be

'sup trackmeister. just catching up w/ your thread a bit. saw a couple q's about the temp wire. is it just one wire coming out? if so, you've got a couple options (that I know of):

Hey Guy! I would be doing better if I could make it to your ebike meet. If one gets planned in the summer, I am up for it .
Yeah only one wire is coming out of the motor.

1. attach it to CA V3, per the instructions in that thread and have the CA retard your throttle when the bitch gets hot, but as far as i know, it doesn't display temps anywhere... if i'm wrong, someone please post the link to the post where the CA shows temp...

I have no want to buy the V3 CA. I will buy it when the problems are rooted. I am not that much of a tech guy to do much of the flashing on the CA to update it. Unless if it is easier than I think. But regardless, I still do not need one just yet.

2. replace the existing sensor with an LM35 (and tap the hall GND/+ wires inside and then outside the motor (so you don't have to thread new wires thru the motor. this way, you just reuse the one existing wire that comes out (the other is attached to hall GND or + inside the motor i think).

then you can mount the temp monitor i gave you.

Did you drill a hole into the stator, or was that already there from the previous temp sensor?

3. insert new wires for BBQ type temp sensor. good thread somewhere on different versions.

if there are other options, please let me know... i know someone was looking at a wireless temp sensor on the sidecover, but i'm not sure how reliable that would be..

There is one other way, I read over in your rivals thread (Hyena's) that he set up a thermosister, that goes inline with the hall sensors and when the temp gets too hot, it opens the circuit between the hall sensors and the controller and the motor just stops. Then you have to wait a bit until the temp gets low enough for the thermosister to close the circuit again. LEads you with two options, either a hall sensor died, or the thermosister tripped .

btw, how's that old hs3540? nice paperweight or did you get rid of it?

Let us be correct on the terminology, it would only be a 3540 with that specific winding in there. I would call it a 350 because it has a 35mm stator and will do 0 KM/H at any voltage, after I pulled the phase wires out of it .
Yeah, the 3540 is now sold to our very own thud. I realized I couldn't juggle school, work, and a tedious project such as that, so it had to go. He could probably wind the thing in a day or two, he is much more prepared than I am to wind the thing. Isn't he also setting you up with a weapon that will put you directly into the dark side? 8)

 

[Hyena]

Did you drill a hole into the stator, or was that already there from the previous temp sensor?

If your motor comes with the 2k thermistor fitted (ie has the extra white wire) then it's already in place next to the halls. At a glance it looks like 4 halls in a row. As Greg said you can tap off the -ve and +ve 5v hall line to power a LM but if you're not running it back to a CA there's little point. Thats why I use thermostats, it simplifies the wiring and is a total safety measure. You can have a temp sensor but if you're not watching it or have an alarm, or it fails or wires break or what ever you could still toast the motor.
If you want to use a BBQ probe you could probably still get away with using the +/- 5v hall signal and that extra 3rd wire.

I read over in your rivals thread (Hyena's)

Aint no rivalry, there's just me and then there's all you guys playing catch up

 

[Trackman417]

Did you drill a hole into the stator, or was that already there from the previous temp sensor?

If your motor comes with the 2k thermistor fitted (ie has the extra white wire) then it's already in place next to the halls. At a glance it looks like 4 halls in a row. As Greg said you can tap off the -ve and +ve 5v hall line to power a LM but if you're not running it back to a CA there's little point. Thats why I use thermostats, it simplifies the wiring and is a total safety measure. You can have a temp sensor but if you're not watching it or have an alarm, or it fails or wires break or what ever you could still toast the motor.
If you want to use a BBQ probe you could probably still get away with using the +/- 5v hall signal and that extra 3rd wire.

Wouldn't the temp sensor that is in the motor right now already be tapped off of the halls? I want to run the motor with worrying about temp. As you can see, I'm not pumping tremendous power through the motor for any extended period of time. The max I am running at with an assumed no voltage sag on 20S (yeah right ) is 3360 watts. But after watching your first video with this motor, it won't be pulling that for too long.

I read over in your rivals thread (Hyena's)

Aint no rivalry, there's just me and then there's all you guys playing catch up

Australians. Psh. Think they can be so cocky with their really awesome accents :wink: .

 

[GCinDC]

Wouldn't the temp sensor that is in the motor right now already be tapped off of the halls? I want to run the motor with worrying about temp.

hyena is the electronics expert. i just flail around till i get something to work.

the temp sensor that's in there, the thermistor(?) has only two legs, and since one end is the bare white wire in your hand outside the motor, the other leg is connected to something else. for some reason i thought it was GND, but that really doesn't make sense to my meat head, seems like it's gotta be connected to the + hall. it's definitely connected to one of them! i know cause i kept it and tapped the other hall power line to add to the three legged LM35...

you want to run w/o worrying about temp? does that mean you don't want to know the temp (ie, have it displayed to you)? or does it mean you're happy to hook it up so it cuts off power when the bitch gets hot? if the latter, someone besides me has gotta help!

 

[Lussy]

Guys,
I believe the white wire is connected to a 2k thermistor with the other side of the thermistor connected to the -ve signal from the Halls. I have checked the resistance between the two of the them and its around 2k at ambient. Check out the thread below

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=38830&hilit=thermistor+white#p579335.

Note that I haven't opend up the hub to confrim that the thermister is the same as the in the ebikessf HS3540, but the resistance temp curve seems to match up with what I am seeing.

I have connected mine up to CAv3 and it works great. I plugged the white wire into the yellow input (NTC input). You need to change the CA settings to a linear device and set up the zero and slop point from the graph below. Joes post in the link above explains how it all works.

View attachment CA temp probe.pdf
Cheers
Matt

 

[Hyena]

Wouldn't the temp sensor that is in the motor right now already be tapped off of the halls?

Well yeah, but only the negative, you'd still need to run the 3rd wire back to the common +ve hall signal. '

Australians. Psh. Think they can be so cocky with their really awesome accents :wink:

Nah, it's got nothing to do with being Australian - that's just for bonus points with the ladies :lol:

hyena is the electronics expert. i just flail around till i get something to work.

In your defense you seem to be a precision flailer as you usually arrive on target :lol:

since one end is the bare white wire in your hand outside the motor, the other leg is connected to something else. for some reason i thought it was GND, but that really doesn't make sense to my meat head, seems like it's gotta be connected to the + hall.

OK I take back the above
It IS the negative that's shared but you could get away with it on any other wire really - negative/earth/common is just used by convention.
A thermistor is essentially just a resistor - THERM(al) (res)ISTOR but as the name suggests it's one thats temperature sensitive so the resistance changes with temperature. If you put your multimeter on the white wire and black you'll get a resistance reading (~2k) and if you put your hot air gun on it it'll go up as it gets hotted (around 3.4k at 100oC) They're not linear though so unfortunately you can't just hook up an multimeter on your bars and know what the temp is doing. Well, you technically could, if you keep in mind that 3.4k is getting a bit hot and you should get off the power if it climbs much more.

I have connected mine up to CAv3 and it works great. I plugged the white wire into the yellow input (NTC input). You need to change the CA settings to a linear device and set up the zero and slop point from the graph below. Joes post in the link above explains how it all works

Sweet! That I DIDN'T know. I knew the V3 CAs were set up for 10k NTC thermistors but didn't know you could upload your own curves for other devices. I might have to drag my V3 off the shelf now!

 

[Trackman417]

.
A thermistor is essentially just a resistor - THERM(al) (res)ISTOR but as the name suggests it's one thats temperature sensitive so the resistance changes with temperature. If you put your multimeter on the white wire and black you'll get a resistance reading (~2k) and if you put your hot air gun on it it'll go up as it gets hotted (around 3.4k at 100oC) They're not linear though so unfortunately you can't just hook up an multimeter on your bars and know what the temp is doing. Well, you technically could, if you keep in mind that 3.4k is getting a bit hot and you should get off the power if it climbs much more.

So would it be safe to pull a lead coming off the black wire of the hall sensors? And then get a temp reader/CA V3 to start looking at the temps? When I get some motivation, and a 3 jaw gear puller, to open the motor up I'll post some pics and start asking some really basic questions that might make you guys leave E-S and throw everything out that reminds you on how tech insensitive I am .


About the paint chipping, I'll post some pics up tomorrow. I think that this is really concerning. Paint is coming off with just my finger nails and it is almost unbelievable how easily it chips off at the edges of some already chipped paint. I think while I check the temp sensor stuff with the motor open I will place the stator into another case from Kenny that will, hopefully, be fully cured. I will also add a couple layers of clear paint to help protect the paint from further damage.