It seems like the big automakers like Ford, Hyundai, and Volvo are slowing down their pure EV plans. Decreasing demand for EVs on the one hand, competition from cheaper Chinese models on the other. Companies are now focusing more on hybrid models to meet shifting market dynamics. Are hybrids becoming a better option than full EVs?
Hybrids > EVs?
- Thread starter KevinJ
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LewTwo
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Hybrids offer range ... something a pure EV is still incapable of.
It all depends on how you set the criteria for being a 'better' option.
For me the hybrids have one big drawback - they need to have both an ICE engine and an electric drivetrain. Looks like someone avoided the decision which way to go and in the end it's the customer who pays for both.
And regarding fuel consumption - i think modern gasoline engines are quite close to hybrids in how much fuel they use. I mean you could get same mpg with pure-gasoline car.
The electric motor in a hybrid can give you some extra burst of power for a short time, this allows the marketing dept to sell you 500 HP car (with 400 HP provided by electric motor for 5 seconds), but this is a feature pretty useless in road driving (after leaving the parking lot the IC engine takes over all the job).
So iif a hybrid is better than EV for someone then for sure a pure-ICE car would be even better than that for them.
For me the hybrids have one big drawback - they need to have both an ICE engine and an electric drivetrain. Looks like someone avoided the decision which way to go and in the end it's the customer who pays for both.
And regarding fuel consumption - i think modern gasoline engines are quite close to hybrids in how much fuel they use. I mean you could get same mpg with pure-gasoline car.
The electric motor in a hybrid can give you some extra burst of power for a short time, this allows the marketing dept to sell you 500 HP car (with 400 HP provided by electric motor for 5 seconds), but this is a feature pretty useless in road driving (after leaving the parking lot the IC engine takes over all the job).
So iif a hybrid is better than EV for someone then for sure a pure-ICE car would be even better than that for them.
Hillhater
100 TW
Plug in Hybrids (PHEVs) are fast becoming the preferred choice around here as more choices become available.
For city or commuting/school run, etc it can operate as a full EV for 30-50 miles.
Then for longer intercity/Interstate journeys, there is no range issues or searching/waiting for chargers.
Full EVs are also suffering from horrendous depreciation and subsequent resale or trade in values.
For city or commuting/school run, etc it can operate as a full EV for 30-50 miles.
Then for longer intercity/Interstate journeys, there is no range issues or searching/waiting for chargers.
Full EVs are also suffering from horrendous depreciation and subsequent resale or trade in values.
Chalo
100 TW
They're regressing to the mean. If manufacturers had made the cheap and easy to own EVs people wanted to buy, instead of the expensive gadget-packed EVs they felt like selling, resale values wouldn't be nearly as soft.
LewTwo
1 MW
I used to own a 2000 Honda Insight. I drove from North Carolina where I purchased it (used) to Jupiter, Florida where I lived at the time ... straight through (no overnight stops). When I moved from Jupiter, Florida to Houston, Texas a few years later, I drove it straight through again. I drove that car into the ground. The battery finally gave out and it was no longer economically viable to restore it. I switched to riding a E-Bike as I was retired and rarely needed to travel more than a few miles. I did that for ten years. Then Texas had its once in a life-time freeze and the power went off. Then I injured my leg. I can no longer effectively pedal a bicycle. In fact I have ti sit down and recover after I hobble a 100 yards (which I never do).
So I started searching for cage to buy. I looked at the current EV's, Hybrids (new and used). By that time I was already planning to move away from Houston (to big, too crowded, to much damned traffic). I required something that I could drive at least 500 miles, was reliable and did not use an insane amount of petrol. I rejected pure EVs because they had inadequate range and cost too much. I rejected Hybrids because they cost too much. I wound up with a used 2011 Ford Ranger pickup with an automatic 5 speed transmission. No crew cab and a short bed. This is South Texas so it has AC as well. It has a computer but it is only used to manage the engine. It has some electronics in the instrument cluster that reads the digital chip in the key. It has an aftermarket "infotainment device" that remains turned off most of the time. However as a modern vehicle it is fairly dumb. It gets reasonable fuel mileage for an ice vehicle. I did have to lay out a chunk of money to replace the transmission.
At this point I figure that truck will last longer than I will. I do not drive in the rain and I do not drive after dark. I rarely drive 10 miles (round trip). In Texas you can drive a low speed vehicle (aka golf cart) on any road where the posted speed limit is less than 35 miles per hour. In Mission, Texas most of the primary roads (i.e. those over 35 MPH) have wide 'slow vehicle lanes' for bicycles, golf carts and other 'low speed vehicles'.
So I started searching for cage to buy. I looked at the current EV's, Hybrids (new and used). By that time I was already planning to move away from Houston (to big, too crowded, to much damned traffic). I required something that I could drive at least 500 miles, was reliable and did not use an insane amount of petrol. I rejected pure EVs because they had inadequate range and cost too much. I rejected Hybrids because they cost too much. I wound up with a used 2011 Ford Ranger pickup with an automatic 5 speed transmission. No crew cab and a short bed. This is South Texas so it has AC as well. It has a computer but it is only used to manage the engine. It has some electronics in the instrument cluster that reads the digital chip in the key. It has an aftermarket "infotainment device" that remains turned off most of the time. However as a modern vehicle it is fairly dumb. It gets reasonable fuel mileage for an ice vehicle. I did have to lay out a chunk of money to replace the transmission.
At this point I figure that truck will last longer than I will. I do not drive in the rain and I do not drive after dark. I rarely drive 10 miles (round trip). In Texas you can drive a low speed vehicle (aka golf cart) on any road where the posted speed limit is less than 35 miles per hour. In Mission, Texas most of the primary roads (i.e. those over 35 MPH) have wide 'slow vehicle lanes' for bicycles, golf carts and other 'low speed vehicles'.
Chalo, that is called an Electric Golf Cart. With the cost of insurance, taxes and yearly maintenance ... I may replace the truck with a electric golf cart (or perhaps an electric trike).
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OP asks "Hybrids > EVs?"
Can we include PHEVs?
Answer depends on the use mode. During the Chevy Volt development period GM surveyed typical driver daily driving range mileages and found most drove under 35 miles. Hence, they designed a 30-40 mile battery-only range. After that the ICE kicks in intermittently until the next charge.
For a driver that usually drives less than 30-40 miles daily, they may rarely burn any fuel, until they need to make a longer trip, where they have virtually unlimited (ICE) range.
Can we include PHEVs?
Answer depends on the use mode. During the Chevy Volt development period GM surveyed typical driver daily driving range mileages and found most drove under 35 miles. Hence, they designed a 30-40 mile battery-only range. After that the ICE kicks in intermittently until the next charge.
For a driver that usually drives less than 30-40 miles daily, they may rarely burn any fuel, until they need to make a longer trip, where they have virtually unlimited (ICE) range.
wturber
1 MW
I think a well done hybrid that can do 50-75 mile a day on electric alone (or near that) and that can be charged at home has been the better choice for most people for quite some time. My limited experience renting a long range Tesla was that it was fine for long trips, but certainly not as easy to manage as an ICE. I would have expected a hybrid to be just as easy as an ICE car for a long range (300+ miles per day) trip.
wturber
1 MW
The average person uses their car for daily commutes and occasionally for longer trips. A well designed hybrid will allow you to do most of you daily stuff without ever visiting a gas station while still having the flexibility of long range trips. Yes, it is more complex. But it is also more versatile.
Chalo
100 TW
I would like to see commuters in electric cars that are no heavier, no larger, no more sophisticated, and no more luxurious than a portapotty.
I mean, if they can't plan better than that, they don't deserve any better than that.
Trouble is, for all those shorter trips you're hauling around a spare engine plus enough added car to carry the spare engine. For as often as most people need the extra range, it's a poor bargain.
It's not as bad as driving an 8000 lbs truck every day so you can tow your boat/RV twice a year if you're lucky, but it's the same kind of bad.
Hillhater
100 TW
Its called a COMPROMISE !
Most folk need the enclosed carrying capacity for family, shopping, bad weather, holiday travel, etc etc. ..but dont need or want 2 cars . So you choose the one that can do the most frequent need and compromise on other trips.
a Hybrid or PHEV is just such a compromise, promising cheap, emissions free commuting , but with long range capability.
LewTwo
1 MW
With better venting I hope ... those things tend to be odoriferous.
Chalo
100 TW
It's all about how you spend your time in there. Most roadgoing ones would probably smell like fast food and slow failure.
Chalo
100 TW
You know, if it also had a turboshaft engine and helicopter rotor and extendible tail boom, then it could take care of other suburban lame-person "needs" without requiring another vehicle. And if it had a 4000 liter foam fire retardant tank and a fire cannon powered by a 2-cycle nitromethane engine, it could extinguish the fires set by other suburbanites who recently murder-suicided. So why not those things, that you don't need very often but you'd be glad to have in a pinch?
Car driver reasoning would have us all writing with pens that are designed to write on paper, but also serve as a weapon, a dildo, and a candle. Because, you know, someday we'll want those things.
scianiac
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Ah nothing like having a PHEV with a 35mi range and you drive 30mi daily which means you're just going to murder that poor battery. Factoring in PHEVs probably also don't have as sophisticated of battery management systems (cooling) and often come with batteries spec'ed for high discharge and not high energy density or lifespan because without that they don't work. But hey I've seen people repurposing PHEVs cells for high discharge performance EVs where you want that high power density so that's neat.
I predict the market for PHEVs with dead batteries is going to be plentiful. But of course this all makes perfect sense, PHEVs are just an amazing marketing play. You get the best of both worlds, no downsides right, not like you get the worst of both. But the commercial or dealer selling them will just explain in simple terms how they work and to most people it does sound like the best of both. They don't understand how batteries work, they are buying a new car, they aren't thinking about maintenance, they are thinking about all the shiny gadgets. They have been told that EVs don't have enough range and it would be impossible to stop for an hour to charge on their 3 times a year long drives.
I predict the market for PHEVs with dead batteries is going to be plentiful. But of course this all makes perfect sense, PHEVs are just an amazing marketing play. You get the best of both worlds, no downsides right, not like you get the worst of both. But the commercial or dealer selling them will just explain in simple terms how they work and to most people it does sound like the best of both. They don't understand how batteries work, they are buying a new car, they aren't thinking about maintenance, they are thinking about all the shiny gadgets. They have been told that EVs don't have enough range and it would be impossible to stop for an hour to charge on their 3 times a year long drives.
Hillhater
100 TW
For some folk, that “long drive” is every weekend, others possibly not as often !
Phevs have been around long enough to dismiss your theory of poor battery life.
GM Volt was introduced 14 yrs ago, whilst Toyota had the Prius phev and Mitsubishi the Outlander PHEV both available for over 10 yrs……none of them with bad reps for battery failures. ..(certainly no worse than EVs)
Modern battery management and charging protocols avoid those extremes of charge/discharge that you imagine
On the plus side for PHEVs, even if the battery is run down and doesn't hold much charge, you still have a gasoline engine and (hopefully) are able to use the car (at least if the producer doesn't brick it entirely to save you from that horrible situation).
scianiac
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Looking around what I've mostly seen is people saying the PHEV batteries don't have degradation issues because they have long warranties and then owners complaining that the manufactures won't replace their batteries under warranty because even if the capacity is at 50% that's "normal degradation" which I guess means that warranty only matters if the battery totally fails. Examples like outlander at 50% battery life after 75K miles and dealer won't replace under 100K warranty.
In general it seems the battery lifespan varies, many are not as bad as I feared but they aren't great. I mean total miles per battery lifespan will be significantly less than an EV mathematically. Assuming the cost is proportional I guess that doesn't matter?
I think a PHEV or Hybrid is the best solution for some people but I also think a lot of people are sold them when they would have been better off with an efficient ICE or EV purely for profit, marketing, and incentive reasons.
I do find this discussion kind of amusing though as I wonder what percentage of the users on this forums cars have been new. Like of the cars you've (as in anyone reading this) owned how many were bought with zero miles off the showroom floor. I'm guess the userbase of this forum heavily selects for people who buy used cars (or no cars) so it's funny to see us arguing about which new cars people should buy. I want them to buy cars that last a long time and depreciate fast!
In general it seems the battery lifespan varies, many are not as bad as I feared but they aren't great. I mean total miles per battery lifespan will be significantly less than an EV mathematically. Assuming the cost is proportional I guess that doesn't matter?
I think a PHEV or Hybrid is the best solution for some people but I also think a lot of people are sold them when they would have been better off with an efficient ICE or EV purely for profit, marketing, and incentive reasons.
I do find this discussion kind of amusing though as I wonder what percentage of the users on this forums cars have been new. Like of the cars you've (as in anyone reading this) owned how many were bought with zero miles off the showroom floor. I'm guess the userbase of this forum heavily selects for people who buy used cars (or no cars) so it's funny to see us arguing about which new cars people should buy. I want them to buy cars that last a long time and depreciate fast!
Haha, true. I bought only one brand new car, but regretted this a bit (my budget suffered a lot). From that time i decided to never buy a car for more than 3-4 monthly salaries and be always ready to lose it to unforeseen situations (i mean, no leasing, no bank loan, be ready to buy next one at any moment).
But in recent years i'm starting to rethink this strategy, because of two reasons:
-- many components seem to be designed now to last only thru the warranty period and fail quite frequently even before end of warranty. Talking about small 'eco' engines, computer-controlled automatic transmissions etc. The cost of replacing or repairing these is very high, like a significant part of value of the car. And not everyone can repair these as the diagnostic equippment is not made available to independent workshops.
-- general cost of repairs has gone up significantly in recent years, especially complex repairs that require a lot of manual work (like taking apart the engine). There are many expensive and unrepairable components - if the thing has a computer in it then forget about any repairs, just order a new one.
It appears that the producers have extended the warranty period and are happy to even replace the whole engine during that period, but after the warranty ends you're out of luck if anything serious fails. The same game is played with EVs - when your battery fails after warranty period you better just scrap the car and get a new one. So the message is clear - don't be dumb, when the warranty ends go and buy a new car. If you're lucky you can still sell the old one, but don't wait too long.
I think the next logical step is - why own a car at all? Just rent it for a monthly fee.
But in recent years i'm starting to rethink this strategy, because of two reasons:
-- many components seem to be designed now to last only thru the warranty period and fail quite frequently even before end of warranty. Talking about small 'eco' engines, computer-controlled automatic transmissions etc. The cost of replacing or repairing these is very high, like a significant part of value of the car. And not everyone can repair these as the diagnostic equippment is not made available to independent workshops.
-- general cost of repairs has gone up significantly in recent years, especially complex repairs that require a lot of manual work (like taking apart the engine). There are many expensive and unrepairable components - if the thing has a computer in it then forget about any repairs, just order a new one.
It appears that the producers have extended the warranty period and are happy to even replace the whole engine during that period, but after the warranty ends you're out of luck if anything serious fails. The same game is played with EVs - when your battery fails after warranty period you better just scrap the car and get a new one. So the message is clear - don't be dumb, when the warranty ends go and buy a new car. If you're lucky you can still sell the old one, but don't wait too long.
I think the next logical step is - why own a car at all? Just rent it for a monthly fee.
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scianiac
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I've had your exact thoughts, I've never owned a new car. Since I drive so little my solution was to just buy a car (actually a truck) that is old enough to be very simple and easy to repair. Required some looking to find one that didn't have insane miles but everything on it is so easy to fix because there is so much space and so many fewer parts in the vehicle in total.
This is probably stupid optimism but I hope that eventually EVs will be in general more reliable than modern ICE cars (honestly I think many already are) just due to their simplicity and solid state nature. Batteries are always improving and even now it seems most decent EV batteries last a long time and only lose capacity with age. So these new super long range EVs will be medium to low range EVs later in life. I mean people seem to love buying dirt cheap Nissan Leafs with low range batteries because if that's all you need they are cheap to buy and operate. And that's like the worse example because they did an appalling job at designing that battery in terms of lifespan.
A modern Hybird on the other hand sounds like a reliability and repairability nightmare. I can't imagine how much shit is packed under that hood that replacing any of it would be vast quantities of labor. Which is really the issue with modern cars, the parts are often not that expensive when compared against their lifespan but boy are they hard to replace.
The only other workaround I've thought of is doing an EV conversion on and older (and cooler) car. You keep the simple stuff, no unneeded gadgets and add in an even more reliable EV system with a battery you can design for your needs.
This is probably stupid optimism but I hope that eventually EVs will be in general more reliable than modern ICE cars (honestly I think many already are) just due to their simplicity and solid state nature. Batteries are always improving and even now it seems most decent EV batteries last a long time and only lose capacity with age. So these new super long range EVs will be medium to low range EVs later in life. I mean people seem to love buying dirt cheap Nissan Leafs with low range batteries because if that's all you need they are cheap to buy and operate. And that's like the worse example because they did an appalling job at designing that battery in terms of lifespan.
A modern Hybird on the other hand sounds like a reliability and repairability nightmare. I can't imagine how much shit is packed under that hood that replacing any of it would be vast quantities of labor. Which is really the issue with modern cars, the parts are often not that expensive when compared against their lifespan but boy are they hard to replace.
The only other workaround I've thought of is doing an EV conversion on and older (and cooler) car. You keep the simple stuff, no unneeded gadgets and add in an even more reliable EV system with a battery you can design for your needs.
Chalo
100 TW
I like hybrids a lot but..
..i can hypermile a tiny gasser that's been lightened and aeromodded with a stick shift and be within 5-25% of their fuel economy depending on conditions.
..so when i bought my last car, i said heck to the complexity, weight, and maintenance of two powertrains.. nobody sells a good dinky EV so, i just bought either the 1st or 2nd most efficient gas car at the time.
Can't wait to convert it to electric someday but since we barely drive it, it doesn't have much environmental impact to begin with.
..i can hypermile a tiny gasser that's been lightened and aeromodded with a stick shift and be within 5-25% of their fuel economy depending on conditions.
..so when i bought my last car, i said heck to the complexity, weight, and maintenance of two powertrains.. nobody sells a good dinky EV so, i just bought either the 1st or 2nd most efficient gas car at the time.
Can't wait to convert it to electric someday but since we barely drive it, it doesn't have much environmental impact to begin with.
Hillhater
100 TW
You might imagine that, but the reality is not the vision you have .
Toyota’s Prius, Camry, and numerous Lexus hybrids have a long history of reliability and low running /maintenance costsreflected by the huge taxi fleets operating them !
The GM Volt also has a reputation for reliability amoungst its owners.
wturber
1 MW
Yup. I've never bought a new car and the last time I borrowed money to own a car was in the early '80s. I almost never drive unless my trip is over 10 miles - and sometimes not even then. I'm 65 and think the odds of me ever buying another car is in the range of 50/50. Maybe I will if I can find a great deal on a used plug-in Hybrid / Gyrocopter.
wturber
1 MW
For me, a modern car that with network/grid dependencies is a deal killer. So good, bad, reliable or not, none of those is an option. Not that I'm willing to spend that kind of money on a vehicle anyway. Electrifying an older car with modern components not connected to a network is something I find attractive.
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