Some thoughts on the future of automotive EVs

[JackFlorey]

This company just takes the whole thing and dumps it into solvent for direct materials reclamation. I'm sure it's expensive and maybe not efficient, and it's not like there are a hundred of these places that can do it yet, but it's hard to beat the fact that so little labor is involved in their process.

Yep. And the local place (Membrane Solutions) is almost entirely manual - but they recover the individual electrodes, the cathode material, the separator and the case, and at that point they are all very easy to recycle (separator is plastic, cases and electrodes go to metals recyclers, they separate out the heavy metals in the cathode material, recover the graphite from the anode etc.) And all the solvents are aqueous.

 

[jonescg]

I have been recycling my own Li-ion battery cells in the shed. It's easy and cheap. Not something I recommend folks do as a rule, but I did it to prove the process is practically very simple and inexpensive, and I've recovered 100% of the copper and at least 70% of the cobalt. The remaining cobalt goes back into solution for another round of recovery. https://www.forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?t=6818
Shred, mill, float-sink, skim-dredge, acid digest, filter, neutralise, wash, dissolve, re-crystallise.

 

[Papa]

I have been recycling my own Li-ion battery cells in the shed. It's easy and cheap.

I waltzed through your AEVA thread. I noticed a variety of AC plug-ins. Have you been monitoring your Wh usage?

 

[jonescg]

I waltzed through your AEVA thread. I noticed a variety of AC plug-ins. Have you been monitoring your Wh usage?

AC Plugins? Not sure what you're referring to.

 

[Papa]

Hot plates (countertop cookers) fans, anything and everything that uses AC power.

 

[jonescg]

Oh right - I was boiling the solutions down to speed the process up. Most of the time Perth's famously hot, dry climate makes light work of it. If you were doing it on scale you'd use shallow trays for evaporating.

 

[harrisonpatm]

I have been recycling my own Li-ion battery cells in the shed. It's easy and cheap. Not something I recommend folks do as a rule, but I did it to prove the process is practically very simple and inexpensive, and I've recovered 100% of the copper and at least 70% of the cobalt. The remaining cobalt goes back into solution for another round of recovery. https://www.forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?t=6818
Shred, mill, float-sink, skim-dredge, acid digest, filter, neutralise, wash, dissolve, re-crystallise.

I read through that thread briefly. I'm impressed. But I gotta ask. Once you've gone through all the work and labor of breaking a cell down to base components. What do you do with said lithium, cobalt, ect? Where does it go? Or perhaps its just proof of concept for at-home materials reclamation.

 

[jonescg]

I read through that thread briefly. I'm impressed. But I gotta ask. Once you've gone through all the work and labor of breaking a cell down to base components. What do you do with said lithium, cobalt, ect? Where does it go? Or perhaps its just proof of concept for at-home materials reclamation.

Yes, it was entirely an exercise in demonstrating how easy and inexpensive the process is. I'm not going to stand on a street corner selling baggies of cobalt sulfate . The copper is worth money, and the cobalt sulfate goes back to a cathode research facility here in Perth.

 

[nicobie]

You should have listed them on ebay as soon to be rare battery building materials. Get rich quick.

 

[Jordan325ic]

.. But that is an unsustainable situation ( ironic for an EV ?) in that you are heavily subsidised ($7500) by every other US taxpayer.
and probably more by Tesla selling cars cheaply whilst being themselves subsidised from the Carbon Credits they sell to other Auto manufacturers !
PS how much is your insurance ?

I hear you on the tax credit, but even at 35k a model 3 trounces anything in that price range.

Insurance is $120 a month for full coverage. Considering I pay $60 per month for liability on a 1997 Mazda pickup, I think it’s not unreasonable.

 

[nicobie]

Next year in the US the credit for buying an EV will be more stacked in favor of poorer folks. This is a good thing.

 

[Comrade]

but even at 35k a model 3 trounces anything in that price range.

I don't think you looked at modern offerings recently. For $35K you can get a loaded Camry that's slightly bigger, slightly safer and gets over 50mpg both city and highway. With various fees states are putting on electric vehicles, to offset the owners not paying any gasoline taxes, I doubt a Tesla would be cheaper to operate, especially if you factor in depreciation.

 

[E-Moto Tuner]

Will be interesting to see how the likely sub $20k Vinfast VF3 mini electric car does if it in fact comes to the US market in 2025 :

VinFast May Bring The Ultra Cheap VF 3 To America - CleanTechnica

VinFast is toying with the idea of selling its diminutive VF 3 electric city car in America. Its dealers approve of doing so.

cleantechnica.com

 

[jonescg]

I don't think you looked at modern offerings recently. For $35K you can get a loaded Camry that's slightly bigger, slightly safer and gets over 50mpg both city and highway. With various fees states are putting on electric vehicles, to offset the owners not paying any gasoline taxes, I doubt a Tesla would be cheaper to operate, especially if you factor in depreciation.

Depreciation is a good thing, IMO. It means cheaper second hand EVs on the market, sooner. The versatility of an EV's fuel source makes them cleaner and cheaper in the long run, even if they lose value quicker. But if you're like me and drive your vehicles into the ground, resale value is a bit of a non-issue.

 

[Papa]

I don't think you looked at modern offerings recently. For $35K you can get a loaded Camry....

And for $10k... a 2024 Toy' truck. Let's see... after subsidies & dealer incentives, something I can finally lust after...

 

[amberwolf]

Looks VERY aerodynamic.

 

[Papa]

Looks VERY aerodynamic.

But..but..but... it has a gasoline 2.0-liter inline-four matched to a 5-speed manual transmission. What more you ask for? Of course, the bummer is... it likely won't be available stateside. And if it did, it'd cost at least an extra 25% +++

 

[neptronix]

I have been recycling my own Li-ion battery cells in the shed. It's easy and cheap. Not something I recommend folks do as a rule, but I did it to prove the process is practically very simple and inexpensive, and I've recovered 100% of the copper and at least 70% of the cobalt. The remaining cobalt goes back into solution for another round of recovery. https://www.forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?t=6818
Shred, mill, float-sink, skim-dredge, acid digest, filter, neutralise, wash, dissolve, re-crystallise.

That's awesome!!!

 

[Comrade]

What more you ask for?

More airbags? Soundproofing? Adjustable seats? Staying on the road at over 35mph? Not failing every crash test? Pretty much everything a modern car would offer.

That looks like a vehicle that would be good for groundskeepers at a corporate complex or a university campus, driving brooms and rakes around at 2mph.

 

[Comrade]

Depreciation is a good thing

You do realize that vehicle depreciation is the single best predictor of reliability and future cost to own?

 

[jonescg]

I'd check the correlation versus causation on that. You're always taking a punt on a used vehicle - I bought a fairly reliable 1988 Honda CRX for $2000 about 12 years ago. I spent about another $1000 getting it roadworthy and it's been pretty good ever since. It could have been a lemon, but if it had made it this far, it probably had some good things going for it. EVs will be no different.

 

[Hillhater]

A combination of rooftop solar PV and an EV would therefore be a good fit for the typical Perth household. My car has 400 km of driving range, so I only need to charge it once a week. If that was from a public charge point, it would be 60% renewable.

That comment did not settle well in my thoughts,..so i checked…
There is no where in Australia (other than the insignificant SA & Tassi Hydro) that has 60% RE in its electricity generation .

https://www.energy.gov.au/energy-data/australian-energy-statistics/data-charts/australian-energy-mix-state-and-territory-2021-22

it seems that public charging in WA would entail 15% or so RE , at best, and around Perth in the SWIS grid, it is mostly Gas and Coal with the main wind generators being outside the grid.

 

[scianiac]

While I only spent a min researching it, it seems that most public charge points in Australia use renewable sources. Presumably to stop this very argument LOL.

 

[jonescg]

Ah, Hillhater, you're at your disingenuous best today.
I said the power from a public charge point, during the day, was about 60% renewable. Here's a snapshot of the West Australian gird at 1:48 pm:


For a solid 5 hours I can charge with mostly renewables.

 

[Hillhater]

Hmm ?… im very puzzled how that graphic can indicate approx 2000MW of solar grid generation ….when WA has less than 1000MW of solar farms , ??
..and strangely it seems to exactly correlate to the amount of Roof Top solar indicated ??
Now, call me disengenuous but, but i do not believe that the entire RT solar generation is being fed into the grid,?
…...rather that the majority of it is being consumed behind the meter and NOT available for grid distribution !
So.. i put it back to you that Perth NEVER gets even 20% of its GRID power from solar or wind.
That chart is deliberately missleading…
……which is not surprising , knowing where it came from !

it seems that most public charge points in Australia use renewable sources. Presumably to stop this very argument LOL.

…would you care to supply your source of information then ?….other wise i have to call that utter BS !