ICE engine, 4.6L Ford, Intake Manifold Basket, what for?

[marty]

Nehmo you are most likely looking in the WRONG service manual. Ford made many different cars and trucks. They change through the years.

Please send me your mailing address and I will get the correct service manual to you. You can click on the PM Private Message box below my name or you can find my email by clicking on the globe link below my name and look at my one page web site.

I am a auto and truck service manual collector. I go to a bible study class with a group of auto and truck mechanics. We spend hours reading and trying to understand the words and pictures in different service manuals.

 

[dnmun]

studying service manuals has to be more fun than bible study. now that is a religion i could get off on.

 

[Nehmo]

...trying to understand the words and pictures in different service manuals.

For now, I'd like to understand DM15

Do the instructions mean to
1|- Disconnect the electrical connector to the ESM (Egr System Module)
2|- Connect with 2 separate wires (fused 5A)
pin 2 to pin 2 (male to female electrical connector)
pin 6 to pin 6 (male to female electrical connector)

3|- Measure V from pin 3 to ground.

That's the way I interpret it. Do you agree?

Since this these instructions deal with the same kind of EGR, and 3 engines that include the 4.6L (mine), they should be correct.

 

[marty]

At the top of the service manual page you show. I see Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor. You stated that your car does not have a MAP sensor. I am not sure if you are looking in the correct service manual? I am sure that you are not seeing the whole book.

I did it. Bought 2005 2006 Lincoln Town Car Service Manual Set DVD. It will be in my house in a few days.

See - THIS DISK MUST BE IN THE DVD DRIVE TO ACCESS THE INFORMATION. Oh no it don't! Got tired of putting my Isuzu truck DVD in the cup holder drive of my computer. Copied the DVD onto the hard drive of my computer. Download a free program called WinCDEmu
http://wincdemu.sysprogs.org/

Here are my notes so I don't forget how to view the service manual on my computer.
Right click .iso file
Open
Disk type: DVD-ROM
See - Drive (V
Start / All Programs - Open Isuzu Service Manual

WinCDEmu is CD/DVD emulator

Ford manual might not behave the same?

 

[fechter]

What's a ESM?

If there is a MAP sensor, you should be able to physically locate it on the car. Step 1.

The manual should have a component location diagram.

Their test instructions are confusing and sound like a good way to blow up something if you do it wrong.
If there is a MAP sensor, one pin should have the signal voltage. There should be a way to just measure the signal and see if it is in a normal range at idle or key on engine off.

 

[marty]

Manual should be here soon. While we are waiting I got a new problem. Nehmo sorry if I hijack your thread.

SERVICE ENGINE SOON
Code is P0442 Evaporative Emission Control System Leak Detected (small leak)

2003 Suzuki Aerio SX named Suzy. Bought her new. We have been together for 150,000 miles. I have done all mechanical work since she was new. Except mounting tires and front wheel bearings that were done by the dealer under warranty right at the end of the warranty. I might be weird but I was kind of sad that I did not get the experience of replacing wheel bearings on a front wheel drive car. Good car, not a lot of problems.

Back to P0442. Code used to come on about once a year and I would erase it. Now after I erase, it comes back after a day or two.

EVAP = Evaporative Emissions System. That be gas fumes. In New York State we have inspections once a year. P0442 = fix it or fail. Inspection is also safety stuff like brakes, lights, horn, etc.

First step in manual is.... Check fuel filler cap for SUZUKI genuine parts, tightness and gasket for deterioration. O ring gasket on cap looks fine to me. Cap is tight. Click sounds and feels normal. Cap is original and has never been replaced. After that, diagnosis is blowing with your mouth in valves and tubes, on parts that I don't know where they are.

CAUTION:
************************************
Do not suck air through valve. Fuel vapor inside valve is harmful.
************************************

I remove gas cap and try blowing through it. Nothing? Try sucking. Nothing?

Kids - Don't try this at home. Deliberately inhaling gasoline fumes to get high is a very bad idea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intoxicative_inhalant

Can I replace gas cap with a condom over the fuel filler neck as a temporary test? Rubber medical glove with rubber band? Better ideas?

 

[fechter]

A new gas cap is pretty cheap. You may even be able to just get the rubber seal. A little Vaseline on the O-ring will help it seal.

If the gas cap is really OK, then it can get to be challenging. Cracked or disconnected hoses, stuck solenoid valve, leaky canister or gas tank fittings are other likely causes. There's usually a way to check each component with a pressure gauge and a vacuum pump. I have one of those Might-E-Vac hand pumps with a gauge. It has helped me find leaky things many times.

I've seen a steel evap canister that rusted through one time. That took a while to find.

 

[Nehmo]

What's a ESM?

Exhaust gas recirculation System Module

If there is a MAP sensor, you should be able to physically locate it on the car.

I'm convinced that although a code PO106 on this car, Lincoln Town Car 2005, points to a MAP problem, the car doesn't really have one that's separate form the EGR system module ESM. Note the circuit diagram earlier in this thread. In the top center is the ESM and the wire labeled MAP (LB-RD) at the PCM (Powertrain Control Module) goes to the ESM.

Step 1.
The manual should have a component location diagram.

In addition to what I've found that's relevant on the web, parts and service departments of two local Ford dealerships couldn't find a reference to that sensor in the parts list or service manual for this car.

Their test instructions are confusing and sound like a good way to blow up something if you do it wrong.
If there is a MAP sensor, one pin should have the signal voltage. There should be a way to just measure the signal and see if it is in a normal range at idle or key on engine off.

I did test DM-15. I connected only the #2 #6 pins of the connector and the module. I measured the voltage at pin 3. It was full battery voltage of 13.1 volts. So it wasn't between "1 and 2 volts" as what would be acceptable. However, I expected a failure to be a low voltage, not a high one.
I also tested the resistance between #2 and #6 on the disconnected module.

Check for internal ESM short. Check resistance between pin-2 (VREF) and pin-6 (signal return) on the ESM with ESM harness disconnected. If resistance is less then 2000 OHMS then replace ESM and retest.

I did that test. (The quote is from the end of the diagnostics section before the table.
It wasn't 2k ohm; it was infinity, or an open circuit. They seem to feel failure is high conductance.
Anyway, I did one further test, I applied vacuum to the EGR (I think I used the correct port) while the engine was in idle. Nothing changed. I think it should have.
I'm guessing this thing is broken. With tax locally, it's about $200 USD.
Is it broken?

 

[fechter]

OK, there's your sensor. If you see the part of the table where it gives the Hz for various manifold pressures, that's just like the Bronco sensor. I had to find a meter that measured Hz to figure out it was bad.

Open circuit between 2 and 6 may or may not be bad depending on your meter. You might try testing the same pins using the diode check function and measure both polarities. If you get no reading in any mode with any polarity, I'd assume it's bad.

You could try measuring pin 3-6 using AC volts and see if you get a reading (installed with ignition on) A 5v square wave should read around 2.5v AC. It may only do this when the key is first turned on, otherwise it looks like the same pin does a MAP DC voltage, which could also be checked.

You should be able to back probe the connector or use insulation piercing probes to measure the voltages installed. You should have 5v on the reference, and I assume 12v on the power.

 

[marty]

Manual is here!
Install program from DVD
Click to open see:


Download RunAsDate http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/run_as_date.html


Click Run - see:


Something is not right? Change the date in my computer down by the clock. Change to 2004. This is like going back in time. Now it works. Every 2005 and 2006 Ford car and truck. I am guessing this would be about 100 pounds of books. 8 GB

Nehmo - Will mail DVD today.

 

[Nehmo]

Code is P0442 Evaporative Emission Control System Leak Detected (small leak)...2003 Suzuki Aerio SX...I remove gas cap and try blowing through it. Nothing? Try sucking. Nothing?...
Can I replace gas cap with a condom over the fuel filler neck as a temporary test? Rubber medical glove with rubber band?

I'm sure you can test-cover the filler tube with something and no harm will be done. But I question if a raincoat will make an adequate seal device. Simply the expansion of the formed-balloon may be enough to trigger a leak code.
I'm not sure what would make a good seal. Perhaps using some kind of balloon inside the filler tube may work.
If you haven't already, check the surface opposite from the cap, that on the top of the filler tube. Rub your finger (or tongue if you want to make a sensitive check) around the surface searching for defects or stuck-on debris.
So, BTW, how did you check the gas cap with your mouth?
In any case, a cap is cheap, and an O ring is even cheaper. It's easy to mistake a bad O-ring for a good because a small defect can ruin the seal.
Even if you fix the problem, it takes 3 drivings cycles typically for that code to disappear on its own.
Another possibility is to move to a state/country that isn't so strict on emission codes.

 

[marty]

Bought a new gas cap. Now we know that the gas cap is not the problem. Will continue troubleshooting the P0442 code by doing what the service manual says step by step.

So, BTW, how did you check the gas cap with your mouth?

Put mouth on plastic threaded part. Blow and suck.

 

[Nehmo]

Put mouth on plastic threaded part. Blow and suck.

But isn't the seal on the bottom of the black part?

 

[marty]

Put mouth on plastic threaded part. Blow and suck.

But isn't the seal on the bottom of the black part?

Unfortunately my mouth is not big enough to fit over the seal part. Do you not know that auto repair shops pay children to drill small holes in the center of gas caps so they get business diagnosing P0442 codes. Glass shops pay these same children to throw rocks at windows.

 

[Nehmo]

Unfortunately my mouth is not big enough to fit over the seal part.

Seriously though, then what's the point of checking the lower part if that's not where the seal is?

Do you not know that auto rep air shops pay children to drill small holes in the center of gas caps so they get business diagnosing P0442 codes. Glass shops pay these same children to throw rocks at windows.

But there is truth to that parade of events in some fields. Psychologist, psychiatrist, and other therapists, are often the one who makes the diagnosis and the one who do the treatment all in one. Thus, a kid, perhaps, is assessed by one of these professionals as having some disorder, and then the same professional (who gets paid for it) treats the kid. Is the kid ever cured? Of course not.
This is a well-understood conflict of interest, but in America the fraud is ignored, particularly in the case of foster/adopted kids, who have Medicaid (which is actually a financial route that takes from the people) to pay the bills.
Other fields suffer the same problem.
Not far form here, Johnson County, Missouri (not the more famous nearby Johnson County, Kansas) a fireman (who was also a jail guard) was indited for arson. It became suspicious when he always was the first to show up at the scene of the fire. He would begin putting out the fire, and wanted attention - not money - for it. -- Oddly, while I was searching on this just now, I discovered it happens all the time. Fire fighters start fires for glory or money.
Anyway, I think I'm supposed to stay somewhat on subject. Was the new gas cap successful?
Even if you don't have access to one of those fancy gas-cap testers, it seems one would not be hard to make. If you have a piece of PVC pipe of the right diameter, you could fashion it into a test chamber. Then, the next time those juvenile delinquents strike, you would be ready.

 

[Nehmo]

OK, there's your sensor...

I've now replaced the ESM (Exhaust gas recirculation valve System Module) and the ECT (engine coolant temperature) sensor.

I cleared the codes, and no new ones showed up. The engine still runs as bad as it did before. That is, it has a rough idle (from my experience, it sounds like a vacuum leak, but I can't find one) ; it has no power when in gear; I can rev it up while in idle; it is difficult to start when hot or even warm.
As the kids would say nowadays, "I'm still getting no love".
Maybe there's a serious way to rule out vacuum leaks. I need to look that up. Jump in if you can.

 

[marty]

Engine needs air - Hows does the air filter look?
Engine needs sparks - Remove and inspect all spark plugs.
Engine needs gas - Measure fuel pump pressure.

Fuel filter? Squirrel, mouse, rat, nest it the air intake duct work?

"rough idle" "no power when in gear" "difficult to start when hot or even warm" did these problems exist before intake manifold replacement and fuel pump replacement?

Did you get the service manual fired up? Change computer date to 2004 to be able to view it. If you put date really far in the past, dinosaurs will come back.

The only way I know of to get codes to come on is to drive around for a few days. Is there another way if car is not drivable?

P0106...... ESM? you replaced it.

 

[dnmun]

when i thought i had a lean miss and low power i replaced the EGR out of stupidity too, but at least i had parts from a car i had parted out. i hate spending money on cars.

it is easy enuff to test with a hand vacuum pump sucking on the nipple. if it moves the diaphragm then it is ok.

i found in the end that i had mis adjusted the valves when i put the motor back together because the feeler gauge i used was in mm and not inches. duh.

it mimicked a leaking EGR valve to me but after i learned more i realized i had it backwards. the tight valves ended up opening early and stayed open late so there was blowback into the intake which reduced intake capacity so it mimicked the EGR being stuck open that way.

but if your EGR valve shows normal action and moves with vacuum then it is ok. if it is stuck open you can clean the carbon out so the valve will seat again too.

 

[fechter]

Find a bazooka and shoot the thing. It won't run any better but you'll feel less frustrated.

The EGR module contained most of the likely suspects. I thought you measured the manifold vacuum at idle and it was more or less normal. Any kind of leak will drop the vacuum. It still sounds like it's running lean.
I've heard of people using propane to find a leak. Turn on your torch without lighting it and blow propane around areas suspected of leaking while the engine is idling. If you find a leak, the engine RPM will increase.

There's a remote chance there is a bad wiring connection between one of the sensors and the ECU, but that almost always throws a code. Very remote chance the ECU is bad.

 

[Nehmo]

Find a bazooka and shoot the thing. It won't run any better but you'll feel less frustrated.

I sold my bazooka to some black guys that live in Ferguson, MO. I don't know why they wanted it so bad

.

I would have abandoned the project already if it were my car. There's a point at which it's more efficient monetarily (considering labor as well) to buy a replacement used car, which would be in better condition. However, my housemate, an 84 year old who owns the house, owns the car. I had previously done all the repairs on his car (his previous car), and nothing really presented an insurmountable challenge. This time though, during a senile moment, you could say, he traded his previous car for this one.
I was rather upset because I had changed almost everything on his previous car. And this car, although newer in years, was more than a 100,000 miles older and he paid 1k$ usd to boot.
In this repair, my housemate is paying for the parts and I'm doing the labor free. He doesn't have a large amount of money for parts though.

The EGR module contained most of the likely suspects. I thought you measured the manifold vacuum at idle and it was more or less normal. Any kind of leak will drop the vacuum. It still sounds like it's running lean.
I've heard of people using propane to find a leak. Turn on your torch without lighting it and blow propane around areas suspected of leaking while the engine is idling. If you find a leak, the engine RPM will increase.
There's a remote chance there is a bad wiring connection between one of the sensors and the ECU, but that almost always throws a code. Very remote chance the ECU is bad.

I had forgotten about the propane method of finding vacuum leaks. I've been using diethyl ether (starting fluid). I've read about pressurizing the intake manifold and then checking with soapy water too.
Last time I checked, I was getting 16 inched Hg vacuum when specs say 15-22. That could mean it's a bit low. I now have a new gauge, so I'll check again plus I'll try the propane test.

Engine needs air - Hows does the air filter look?
Engine needs sparks - Remove and inspect all spark plugs.
Engine needs gas - Measure fuel pump pressure.
...Did you get the service manual fired up?

I replaced the fuel filter and fuel pump, and although I didn't do a pressure check on the new one, I did look at the flow and it looked fine.
I also replaced the plugs. That, actually, was the original request of the car's owner.
I also changed the air filter and cleaned the MAF sensor.
I'm still working on getting the manual open. I think I'll be able to do it.

I'm now suspecting the CHT (Cylinder Head Temperature) sensor, which is hard to get to but I can access the wires to it. I also suspect the fuel rail pressure temperature sensor. And I'm beginning to wonder about throttle position sensor.
Also, I suppose I should report, in addition to being not-startable when warm, the engine is hard to start when cold. I can rev it up in idle. (You can ignore the clicking sound; it's just a meaningless plastic thing.) https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/113157811476977440257/albums/6082509083790270657/6082509087219277506?pid=6082509087219277506&oid=113157811476977440257 not really a very interesting clip.

Yes, I've also thought of a problem with the PCM (Powertrain Control Module). It's hard for be to believe that went bad, but a guy in another group states his went.

 

[leffex]

Nehmo are you a mechanic. Can i come work for you?

Hehe no but the engine is idling Ok, starting OK. But reving bad?
Map sensor 2 inch by 1. If bad and failed will make throttle and motor run badly, slow acceleration because it uses chip settings and no real data for motor running.

Fuel injector(bad) irregularity in flow will cause rough running, missfires , lambda sensor error codes.

To test sensors without uncrewing . -Just remove connection, start car, look for change of status of motor, when motor show no change error found.

Check maf sensor again! Sometimes cleaning it eill destroy it, by disconneting, check motor running, start...and look to se if thats your prob again.

Check the fues in the box...

Hard to start can mean that the crank speed sensor is bad, or Camshaft sensor if motor limit revs(). Some cars have one, some have two. (check crank speed sensor first of these two)

Good luck

 

[marty]

I'm still working on getting the manual open. I think I'll be able to do it.

Do you have a old Windows XP computer floating around? Bet ya do. Go dust it off and stick that DVD in it. Set the date for 2004 and do not connect computer to the internet. Computer will be happy thinking the date is 2004. Service manual DVD is good. Suspect problem is your computer.

You getting some good advise here. Read what Leffex write.

 

[Nehmo]

Nehmo are you a mechanic. Can i come work for you?

I'm rather backlogged with applications. But if you submit yours soon, I'll make sure I get to it within 6 months.

Hehe no but the engine is idling Ok, starting OK. But reving bad?

The engine starts with a bit of difficulity. The vid shows this if you want to bother. It idles kinda-rough but is capable of revving up. Once, there is a demand for power, the engine will die. When the engine gets warmed up, it may die on its own.

Map sensor 2 inch by 1. If bad and failed will make throttle and motor run badly, slow acceleration because it uses chip settings and no real data for motor running.

The MAP (manifold absolute pressure) sensor doesn't exist except as part of the ESM (Exhaust gas recirculation System Module). I just replaced the ESM.

Fuel injector(bad) irregularity in flow will cause rough running, missfires , lambda sensor error codes.

I'm not getting any codes currently.

To test sensors without uncrewing . -Just remove connection, start car, look for change of status of motor, when motor show no change error found.

Check maf sensor again! Sometimes cleaning it eill destroy it, by disconneting, check motor running, start...and look to se if thats your prob again.

Well, I'd like to agree. I tested it twice and it seems to be OK. But the symptoms for a bad Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor are similar to mine.

Check the fues in the box...

Done long ago.

Hard to start can mean that the crank speed sensor is bad, or Camshaft sensor if motor limit revs(). Some cars have one, some have two. (check crank speed sensor first of these two)

From what I read, a bad crank sensor will prevent starting. Is there a part way about it? Easy Auto Diagnostics has plenty of articles on this engine. I didn't see one for the Camshaft sensor and I'm not familiar with it.

I haven't played with the car in two days. I'm getting ready to have another go at it. There are still things to test.

 

[dnmun]

i have not followed this entire thing but did you test for fuel flow from the pump? you had removed the original pump and replaced it or not? did it get tested in the current configuration?

 

[marty]

Nehmo are you a mechanic. Can i come work for you?

Hehe no but the engine is idling Ok, starting OK. But reving bad?
Map sensor 2 inch by 1. If bad and failed will make throttle and motor run badly, slow acceleration because it uses chip settings and no real data for motor running.

Fuel injector(bad) irregularity in flow will cause rough running, missfires , lambda sensor error codes.

To test sensors without uncrewing . -Just remove connection, start car, look for change of status of motor, when motor show no change error found.

Check maf sensor again! Sometimes cleaning it eill destroy it, by disconneting, check motor running, start...and look to se if thats your prob again.

Check the fues in the box...

Hard to start can mean that the crank speed sensor is bad, or Camshaft sensor if motor limit revs(). Some cars have one, some have two. (check crank speed sensor first of these two)

Good luck

Check maf sensor again! Check maf sensor again! Check maf sensor again! Check maf sensor again! Check maf sensor again! Check maf sensor again! Check maf sensor again! Check maf sensor again! Check maf sensor again! Check maf sensor again! Check maf sensor again! Check maf sensor again!
MAF