LightningRods mid drive kit

I can't speak for anyone else, but...from 1-20 MPH I "clown pedal" a lot, so I don't accidentally shoot past a policeman without my feet moving. From 20-MPH to 30? I pretty much focus on not getting hit by someone who's driving a car while texting...

I rarely ride off-road, but when I do, I'm more focused on unexpected obstacles...
 
I find the ability to pedal for really low speed stability "feels" better for some reason. High speed pedaling would be great but not at the expense of the beef LR is adding with 219 reliability!
 
spinningmagnets said:
I can't speak for anyone else, but...from 1-20 MPH I "clown pedal" a lot, so I don't accidentally shoot past a policeman without my feet moving. From 20-MPH to 30? I pretty much focus on not getting hit by someone who's driving a car while texting...

I rarely ride off-road, but when I do, I'm more focused on unexpected obstacles...

Why bother if you are under their radar speed limit? Just ride...it's only when you get above that magical number 25 or 30mph that you should worry about looking like you are just a fast biker. And yeah...watching out for drivers playing Pokemon rather than watching the road is always on my mind!
 
Exercise is one reason. A lot of people want to use an electric bike to be able to control their exertion level. This is particularly true of older riders who live in hilly areas. Another reason is extending the range of the battery. At legal speeds the human power contribution can at least double the range of the battery. And of course another reason is being able to use your bicycle as a bicycle. The town that I live in has many miles of beautiful bike paths that you can't use any kind of motorized vehicle on. EXCEPT electric assist bicycles.

I need about twenty electric bikes. I want a workout bike with skinny tires, torque sensing and multiple gears, an eMX bike with long travel suspension, one speed and tons of power, I want a hard tail street cruiser with one speed and lots of power, I want a distance bike for the road with a Rohloff and a 50 mph top speed, I want a cargo bike to do my shopping and to run kits to the post office, I want a board track racer bike.....
 
Why bother if you are under their radar speed limit?

Even if the charges are "thrown out of court" due to my actual legal compliance, I don't like taking a day off to go to court in order to prove I'm innocent.

In 100 words or less, please describe the police in my town...
 
I tried the bike first time with 40t x 20t @ 90v 2.5kw

wholly molly first time I have felt the speed on this flawlessly. No speedo felt like 60kmh.

The sound doesn't exist anymore because I feel like I'm in front of it and I only hear wind. Neighbouring houses probably don't mind as much either because it at a lower pitch for slower and if it is a high pitch you'd only hear more for a split second.

Best thing is pedal cadence. As much power as I waste in the wrong gear I am also in a happier gear to be going at and hence pedalling.

People want everything including oxymorons.

Most riders say ah I don't pedal much so it doesn't matter, but when its gone you start to notice what you took for granted. Simple things like pedalling past walkers without motors running is nice....

For a while I will be able to test the higher heat production..... Big leeway for now....
 
Tossing in my 2 cents...

I'm always riding well above local "limits" (30+, shit my "granny gear" 28t will hit 42mph). Of course I'm trying to avoid popping up on their "radar". If/When I see/pass police I "pedal" past them. Honestly, unless they can hard core bust you, they don't want to be laughed at by their peers for pulling over a bicycle. LOL :p I guess I don't see the "avg" eBike market picking up a LR Small or Big Block. People are constantly asking me about WTF I have going on, but it's not for the "avg"! I'd imagine everyone with this kit is thinking the same. Once your human power is <~20% or less of total power, there's little to no reason to reduce the motor to human cadence. These last couple pages have made me quite happy, as a few of the "difficulties" are going to be worked out with the #219 final drive. Let it be known that #219 is good for 20hp(~15,000w), ie plenty!
motor will make as much power as a derailleur can handle.
As a pro mech I want to clarify that the derailleur has little to nothing to do with power handling. There's two basic parts to a derailleur; one is the parallelogram that switches between cogs, the second is the pulley cage which takes up chain slack. None of it is under "power" other than the cable pulling it into certain gears. What is doing the work is the freehub body and ratcheting mechanism. As far as making a #219 derailleur, save your time. Part of the reasons why a #219 can handle so much power is because it's designed for straight chain line with no shifting. (Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the idea! But it's just not made for that!)
[Dont' know where else to ask, but I stumbled upon a thread with a guy (brazil?) that mounted the motor to the chainstays (Norco?, maybe something else, but def long travel), 6,000w, with 24" wheels. Can't find it again!!]
I want to share a couple drivetrain ideas with everyone here now that the critical parts are on the horizon. Basically, its a custom rear hub with either a "fixed" large cog getting directly driven by the motor (ie, regen) or more custom, a "dual" freehub body where the large cog (ie #219) is on it own freehub section, and then the other 7-9 gears are turned by the crank. I like the idea of a fixed cog to the motor to gain regen ability. Now that the reduction has been minimalized, I want to flip the motor around and either run direct to the rear hub, or run two connected cogs as a primary/final drive setup with just bearings on the crank spindle(no freewheel). If running straight back to the wheel (like ElectricGod's scooter, but on a bicycle) I'd keep the cranks to "look" like a legal bicycle.

I can't say how much louder the 12t is, but a 15t and 18t still make a low whine that I like because people will turn around to see it flying by. Better than sneaking up behind unsuspecting pedestrians, LOL!

(Can't lie, at ~4,000w frame is starting to creak a lot.)

Ride or DiE!
 
Derriere or how ever you spell whats behind you....

is not made for a 3kw+ system sorry to disagree.

1. 3kw doesn't work with anything at an angle with a Der... or not.

so yes you could use it in a straight line to one particular sprocket from bb to rear to argue the point but that to me is not the definition of drreierieirei,,,

can it shift underload and have you experienced it doing it? Through a mountain bike cassette? While you use 3kw?

doubt it.

But yes it will shift on bicycle connected to the LR but I think we are not talking about anything but dealing with the power or should I say torque that the LR Big Block can smash into any bicycle component.

But you are right. Pawls cry on anything but the high end stuff (that I can vouch for with limited experience) The dt swiss 350 is still holding up touch wood.

And today I did a short spin with my hub motor buddies on some single track. It's winter so I was barely over ambient. the unmodded but ff hub was at 120 degrees
c constantly but the modded with thins surprisingly was holding on under 50 degrees celcius.. amazing.

my new gearing was more fun even though this was not extreme at the least. I am hitting 60 kmh for sure now since they could tell me....

13729143_10154177571734845_8618193577729289894_n.jpg


EDIT I reread your post and if you can post a video of your d.... shifting in slow motion would be best. You might be right here because I can only imagine logically that it is the whole concept of shifting underload that is impossible. but you might be right that it is the chain mashing up against the cassette out of line is the part that cant handle the power.... sorry ... Id just imagine when Mike says de he means the whole shifting process and all the parts connected to it....
 
xnoitulos said:
Let it be known that #219 is good for 20hp(~15,000w), ie plenty!
#219 is amazing chain. When I first suggested it I nearly got ridiculed out of E-S by one of the "experts". It's been one of the best decisions I've made. It's been run thousands of miles by hundreds of kart racers at over 100 mph. I expect to see it used a lot more on high end electric bikes.
As a pro mech I want to clarify that the derailleur has little to nothing to do with power handling.
It seems to me that the strength of the cage spring has something to do with the chain's resistance to climbing the teeth of the sprocket. For sure if your drive chain is too long the resulting slack will cause the chain to skip on the rear sprockets. I think we should keep this subject open.
As far as making a #219 derailleur, save your time.
I never intended to do this. I agree, it wouldn't work. #219 is for aligned single run only.
I can't say how much louder the 12t is, but a 15t and 18t still make a low whine that I like because people will turn around to see it flying by. Better than sneaking up behind unsuspecting pedestrians, LOL!
Discussions about "noisy" are difficult here. People shooting videos with the camera and mic right on the drive don't help the situation. I personally like things as quiet as possible. If the belts that are as strong as #219 chain weren't 2" wide I'd use them all the way from the motor to the rear wheel.
(Can't lie, at ~4,000w frame is starting to creak a lot.)
I may as well say it now. Once we get all of these driveline issues worked out and the drive is bulletproof from the motor to the rear wheel, we're going to start bending and destroying frames. The lighter the bike you try to fit a high powered drive onto the better the chance that you will taco it. The big freestyle bikes made for doing aerials are a good choice. If you put a big block on a cheap WalMart bike expect to break the bike. If you put it on a 20 lb skinny tire road bike expect to break the bike. Motorcycles are heavy because they're built for the power they carry. We're trying to cheat like Colin Chapman cheated with the Lotus. He bent and broke frames too. But he beat a lot of much larger and more powerful cars in the process.

I'm excited to see how the new parts work.
 
I may have caused some confusion with this photo:
Shim_Sprockets_2.jpg

The idea is to use a system of spacers and sprockets, all of which have the free hub spline pattern cut through them as well as aligned holes for six hardened bolts to tie them together. The system can be either #219 or 1/2" x 1/8" single speed, or multiple 1/2" cogs can be alternated with spacers to allow derailleur shifting. I plan to use 7-8 speed spacing which is 5mm per gear.
Where things get complicated is the shape of the teeth on the multiple speed cogs. Do I use the typical low profile cassette tooth or use a longer single speed tooth and hope it will shift? Do I have "clocking" where a couple of teeth are shorter to encourage the chain to jump to the next sprocket? Nice, easy shifts and high power capacity are at odds with each other. I've also thought of having the lower tooth count sprockets made with more of a single speed tooth and the higher tooth count sprockets made with a shorter cassette profile. Skipping happens most in the high speed gears with fewer teeth. Luckily the cage spring is most slack on the smaller sprockets so it might be easier to get the long tooth profile to shift in the high speed gears.
 
Hats off to everyone tries to improve stuff and experiments against the grain.

This is how things advance.

If we are talking about the same thing... 3kw and + power the logic of chain on an angle is what remains to be seen. Before we would easily say those bicycle cassettes would taco first. Now Mike's gone and made a custom cassette that won't taco.

How long any metal and chain will deal with being at the wrong angle is what remains to be seen.

So correct me if I am wrong, the modern day dere is made to work with 9-11 speeds usually. They were also meant to be used with 3 chainrings at the front to keep the chain in line. Anyone would tell you at 150w or whatever we usually pedal how bad it sounds when you get this wrong or take a huge body weight step and do this wrong. Then modern day stuff has start going single fronts because found they were almost always using one of their fav and wanted to save weight complexity.

Anyone who has ridden 1 x 9 or maybe its just me knows that once you get out to that granny it still rubbing at an angle. And that's around 200w cont.

For people who have run 3kw what is the least amount of teeth you can do it without skipping? this would be great data. I get skipping for example on 20t still with any derailleur (spelt right?) off the shelf. They all feed from 6 oclock position half the teeth so only 10 bicycle teeth taking the brute force.
The only way I can get 20t to work is by wrapping the chain around to feed the chain perfectly to 75% of the teeth. In this case 15 teeth engaged.

so that I guess would mean if using modern deraileurs with a 30t minimum chain might be ok if it feeds perfectly in line. A small misalignment will be self destruction.

Now lets line that 30t up as out fast as possible next to the dropout. From there you can start building out ward taller cogs.

I have only tried this briefly because I am not an expert with deraileurs (hate this word) all the springs and lengths are made shift across modern cassettes. If someone can make them shift from 30t to 40t somehow in this position. Hats off.

I can only assume with this that a custom deraileur is needed or you need a hell of a lot of patience to get the increments to work.

Last but not least with 3kw from zero to 60kmh changing gears seems ridiculous. In a race or even a fun bit mixed terrain, holding off power to shift will be a very slow process. You have to also stop and hope that you can hear that your change sounds clean before reapplying 3kw or else self destruction.

On road boys with long open roads might find this more beneficial. I am sure it will be great for some. For me the motor is efficient in that it never overheats, it rarely needs 3kw for long.

I'd still love two gears for zero to 30kmh and 30 to 60kmh. I just don't think derailleurs were designed to do that large a gap of beneficial changing in our specific application. bafang or small block yes. 3kw not really.

7 speed is the right chain from my experience. I can strongly recommend Connex wipperman 7e8. Longest running chain I've had. Although it did at the end with dirt mud grease build up start to dislike single speed cogs enough to want to hold on for too long and wrap up and double over and self destruct the drive train.

7 speed just works through both off the shelf tensioners and single speed cogs chainrings like spb cyclone. Go thinner more of that jamming on the thicker cogs, go thicker and tensioners and deraileurs wont let you get some single speed chains fitting through especially the izumi track single speed chain I got with some ridiculously wide connecting clip.

I do really look forward to Cheekyboke proving me wrong with some video especially :mrgreen:
 
Where things get complicated is the shape of the teeth on the multiple speed cogs. Do I use the typical low profile cassette tooth or use a longer single speed tooth and hope it will shift? Do I have "clocking" where a couple of teeth are shorter to encourage the chain to jump to the next sprocket? Nice, easy shifts and high power capacity are at odds with each other.

I can tell you from experience trying to make non-profiled cogs shift will produce mediocre results AT BEST. Yeah, you can shorten some teeth or remove one (see: SRAM Openglide) but it's quite difficult to get anything close to the performance we're accustom to. Unless you're planning on going well above 3kW you can use regular cassette cogs. (Just an fyi, 6/7/8 speed drivetrains use the same cog spacing and same width chain. Things got narrower at 9, and then 10, and slightly more at 11, but 10/11 compatibility is well tested)

For people who have run 3kw what is the least amount of teeth you can do it without skipping? this would be great data

Go back to the photo's in my second post. I'm running over 3kW in all 7 cogs (I'll even go to the 28t, 8th cog) in the back. That's 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-(not the 32&36), with zero skipping. I just looked and have 411 miles on the chain so far and it's not even showing 50% wear yet.

[Derailleur] is not made for a 3kw+ system sorry to disagree.

1. 3kw doesn't work with anything at an angle with a Der... or not.

There's no problem with having a little angle with the chainline. You just don't want it to get extreme. If the chainline is a bit off turning the 11t at the bottom of the cassette, it's not going to bend the teeth over. However, if you're turning a larger cog with bad chainline it can "fold" the cog over as there's a "tall" unsupported distance (actually one reason I will run up to the 28t is because it's the bottom cog on the 3 cog carrier (XT M771) and it's riveted just below the teeth so it's short height has less leverage for getting bent over)

Anyone would tell you at 150w or whatever we usually pedal how bad it sounds when you get this wrong or take a huge body weight step and do this wrong.

the whole concept of shifting underload that is impossible

It's not impossible, it's just extremely rough on the drivetrain. You're familiar that shifting under load is something that you want to avoid even when applying human levels of power. I don't know why power-shifting seems to be something you think is necessary to do with a multi-gear system. Just like a car or motorcycle, you use a clutch to change gears, and typically let off the throttle to do so. Same with the bicycle. I just recently replaced the twist throttle with a thumb throttle. Combined with a trigger shifter, it's impossible to be activating both the throttle and the shifter at the same time. Like I mentioned, I've full throttle power shifted on my other GNG bike at 1kW with a DT star ratchet hub.

In a race or even a fun bit mixed terrain, holding off power to shift will be a very slow process. You have to also stop and hope that you can hear that your change sounds clean before reapplying 3kw or else self destruction

I can tell you that releasing the throttle, clicking a button, and returning to full throttle is hardly a "very slow process", and can take less than one second. I typically pedal the cranks around once during the shift to complete the cog change in the back under my own light power before hitting the throttle. Shifts happen very quickly, as a single crank turn will rotate the cassette ~2-4 times.

I'm going to try to get some video up soon :!:

Cheers!
 
I'm getting excited that I may have missed some magic touch some how.

So in the video set your limiting to say 3kw and then pull full throttle to show us from a dead start. That will be basic proof its possible for atleast a few times.

Can't wait to see it.

EDIT please start in the 11t.
 
then pull full throttle to show us from a dead start

EDIT please start in the 11t.

Again, what is with your need for drivetrain torture?

"Hey, check out my new car!"
"Yeah, cool, now let me see you redline the engine and drop the clutch in 6th gear! Then I'll believe that it drives."

Peak motor torque is produced at 1rpm, which is why accelerating from a dead stop produces very high loads. What's the point of having all the gears in the back if you want to start in the tallest gear? Just like driving a car, you start in a moderate gear providing fast acceleration, and then you shift into taller gears providing higher speeds, you do this while operating in an ideal rpm range (ie not bogged out or past redline). Of course I'm going to operate the gears so that they function as designed, not try to break them, and then say, "I broke it, so it must never could have worked."
 
+1. why have gears if you don't use them. if you try to damage your gears intentionally, ok. but it makes no sense.
also the derailleur doesn't care about power, just as xnoitolus said. it doesn't even see any power. if you shift like you learned it as a kid (i hope you did), and dial down the power, shift and apply power again everything works fine. i have several thousand kilometers on my bike with 2.5kW and never had a sinlge problem with shifting or slipping gears/chain, though i must say i don't use 11t and start with 13t. i just adjusted the derailleur's travel limit screw for the small cogs, so it can't shift to the smallest gear. wear is just very high. i always start in gear 3 to 5 and then shift to 8 as i reach 30km/h. i use gears 1 an 2 (or 3) for climbing only. ride it like you would drive a car and everything will last A LOT longer. abuse it and you shouldn't wonder if it brakes.
 
I like the idea of gears and I'm going to keep working to see if I can't make them work better for high powered mid drives. Single speed is not as attractive, but look at how many people have hub motors. A single speed mid drive has much better balance, the rear suspension (if there is any) works much better, rear wheels don't get beaten to death and you have the advantage of reduction with high power. So even without multiple gears mid drives are worth the effort.
 
[youtube]TJmMDjHmfHw[/youtube]

View attachment 1
First time shooting video, so next ones will hopefully be better :oops:

Just a quick out and back down the highway, and a short rip around some recreational fields.
15t3.8kW_thumb.png

This was the first run with the chain watcher solution I came up with for this frame. Ordered the Origin8 chain watcher, but this frame has a boss for floating rear brake caliper right where it would clamp the seartube. I finished tapping out the hole @ M8x1.25mm and ordered some socket cap M8 bolts 60mm long. The bolt head floats right above the 40t, and I was able to slip a collar of 5/16" clear hose over the head to dampen the sound of any contact. Used a nut to lock the bolt into the frame, and another to secure a large fender washer against the bolt head. It worked, and now I can finally ride rough off-Road terrain with it for more than 10 seconds! Every bike is different, but I highly suggest finding a solution if you're having this problem! I can't wait to go hit some singletrack! :twisted:
 
Great video! Interesting to see the swingarm flex to the right under power. I like the chain stop. Something like that is definitely needed. Your bike seems to work really well. Nicely done.
 
LightningRods said:
Great video! Interesting to see the swingarm flex to the right under power. I like the chain stop. Something like that is definitely needed. Your bike seems to work really well. Nicely done.
wanted to write the same. frigthening to SEE it. you know it must be there, but it isn't until you see it. would be interesting to know how much side force a frame can take before it brakes. but as i've never heard of a frame brake from a mid drive (not even walmart bikes) i hope my high quality frame is strong enough.
 
xnoitulos said:
then pull full throttle to show us from a dead start

EDIT please start in the 11t.

Again, what is with your need for drivetrain torture?

"Hey, check out my new car!"
"Yeah, cool, now let me see you redline the engine and drop the clutch in 6th gear! Then I'll believe that it drives."

Peak motor torque is produced at 1rpm, which is why accelerating from a dead stop produces very high loads. What's the point of having all the gears in the back if you want to start in the tallest gear? Just like driving a car, you start in a moderate gear providing fast acceleration, and then you shift into taller gears providing higher speeds, you do this while operating in an ideal rpm range (ie not bogged out or past redline). Of course I'm going to operate the gears so that they function as designed, not try to break them, and then say, "I broke it, so it must never could have worked."

I didn't think you had two cameras so it should make no difference if you hit 3kw from a dead start where you could record the ca and then ride the bike and point at the 11t. 3kw is 3kw what ever it is. That was what what you said it could do so that's what I asked for proof of and you delivered and this forum is all the better for someone like you producing proof that

a cassette at 3kw+ can hold up.

I was thinking to do a hats off video to you and if you request it I will do it. :D

Well done and now I and eveyone else needs to work out why we are running single speed. Or I have missed something here in how the only differences I have not tried is your large motor and js sprockets? Does it mean that 3kw is not the same 3kw experienced by the time it reaches the cassette?

Again, what's with asking for it to be from a dead stop? Is it possible to climb a steep mountain off road rocks with your gearing and will that function the same as in the evidence you have so brilliantly produced?

Can someone do the math or physics of what the difference is in terms of what the cassette experiences from a start or when the bike is already moving since you would think there is no difference at all.

EDIT above reply was only watching first half of vid 11t 3kw

watching more especially the park section the chain is whipping wildly around. That top bolt constantly rubbing ever so slightly looks like it might be an additional midas touch. Is there anything else we should be trying?

Again well done for pulling this off, and I hope you keep us informed with real world riding data that so little here share. I'm as many probably very interested in the longevity of the set up too.
 
LightningRods said:
Discussions about "noisy" are difficult here. People shooting videos with the camera and mic right on the drive don't help the situation. I personally like things as quiet as possible. If the belts that are as strong as #219 chain weren't 2" wide I'd use them all the way from the motor to the rear wheel.

There are lots of motorcycle final drive belts that are less than 2". As thin as 1". The issue as I see it is that they might not be the right length. Belts also aren't typically used on dirt oriented bikes as you can seriously mess them up if you get a rock under the belt as it goes around the pulley.

I also have to ask, do Cush hubs exist for bicycles? They are used on streetbikes, to lessen the stress on the swing arm due to torque pull.
 
OK...supposedly on their site...somewhere it says that 100% of their sprockets are 2 piece...or something like that. Well I didn't see it...where ever it is and it's certainly not mentioned on the mini sprocket page which is where I went directly. I called them a little while ago and was told that a single piece sprocket is going to cost me $200. All I can say it WTF!!! Really?! it costs 10X more to NOT cut the sprocket into two pieces rather that leave it whole? That and I was tersely told that it's obvious on their site that everything is 2 piece.

This is the rocketsprocket home page. If you read what is written here, you can if you know what you are looking for, can interpret "quick change" as meaning "2 piece sprocket". Well obviously I'm an idiot despite my background in electrical engineering and other things and am too stupid to make that inference. If only it said in clear English "We make 2 piece sprockets only for EVERYTHING WE SELL. All 1 piece sprockets are custom builds and will cost you $200". Gee...how nice and simple it would be if that was specifically stated in clear English that idiots like me could readily understand.

2016-07-18%2010_48_20-Home_zpsxa76xayy.png


And the mini sprocket page...OH look! NO mention what so ever that 100% of our sprockets are 2 piece. I'm a little miffed to say the least.

2016-07-18%2010_49_03-sprocket16%20raquo%20Page%2010%20of%2014_zpsemqbeifc.png
 
Has anyone tried a Rohlhoff hub with a big block? My understanding (I might be wrong) is they will shift under load and hold up under significant load quite well. That would make a single chain line possible with 219 and still have gear changes. I know Rohlhoffs are heavy, but really are we worried about that too much? I mean we are adding a heavy motor and batteries already...what's a little more weight?
 
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