LightningRods mid drive kit

[LightningRods]

What brand/model of chain would be best for this kit (the bicycle chain)?? I am looking for a strong chain that can handle the torque of this kit without ripping apart

If you are running a derailleur you're forced by the action of that method of shifting to use a chain that both allows a fair amount of side to side flex and torsional twisting. You also need to buy a chain meant for the number of cogs on your rear cassette. Go to your LBS and tell them you want a premium quality 7 speed or whatever chain. Shimano parts are usually good enough for me.

The big advantage of using a single run, single speed chain is that you can use a beefier chain that has thicker side plates and tighter tolerances for very little twisting or side flex.

 

[emaayan]

when you use a derailleur make sure you won't cross the stream... ah.. i mean chain, when i first had my ecospeed derailleur i always started with the lowest gear on a 10 gear system. however the chain was layed out in such a way the sheer force of the motor caused a bent in the front chainring teeth and eventually caused non-stop chain drops. now that i have an alfine 11 i don't have have to worry about that, and i ALWAYS use a THORN chainring (currently 39T maybe i'll go for 44T if it helps with the speed) it's a 7075 T6 alumimum grade metal (arrrg arrr, tim the toolman style grunt) , so far held very nicely.

and personally for me the lack of tree structure in forums, always bothered me with off-topic messages, i know i shouldn't look a gift horse, but i found navigating tree messages by just looking at the topic a lot easier.

 

[r3volved]

Mike, does anyone have your kit yet, or have you done your own ride yet?

I've been on the hunt for a suitable FS frame for my next bike...are my assumptions correct that this will NOT work on a floating BB?

 

[t0me]

Mike, its worth starting to collect Q & A's for content on your website when you start developing that more.
Maybe even consider having a discussion forum as part of your own website. You'll have control of it then (and I'm sure there will be no shortage of volunteers for post-patrollers to help you manage the content so it need not be a burden on your time).
It wouldn't be a "diss" to this place at all. There are bound to be a lot of questions/discussions specific to your kit as it adapts and evolves in the coming years.

 

[emaayan]

L-R can tell how many "turns" does the motor have? (i understand this counts in wattage as well) also do you happen to know the guage of the winding? i believe that the thickness of it also tells about how many amps it can take.

 

[LightningRods]

Mike, does anyone have your kit yet, or have you done your own ride yet?

This is the state of my own build:

I bought it brand new over a year ago. Every time I get enough parts together to make a kit for myself someone needs the parts and I send them off. Right now people are just using my parts on upgraded GNGs. As long as people are waiting for parts I feel uncomfortable keeping them for myself. I have one finished scratch built here that is promised to Spinningmagnets and three more kits just needing the final details and assembly. As far as I know Wishes and Skyungjae have put the most miles on my brackets and drive parts.

I've been on the hunt for a suitable FS frame for my next bike...are my assumptions correct that this will NOT work on a floating BB?

Denisewa made a GNG work on a floating BB but I don't think it's a good idea. This mid drive design needs to use the front downtube of the bike's frame for rigidity. Having the BB moving around relative to the main part of the frame is a real problem. Don't get into it if you don't have to.

 

[LightningRods]

L-R can tell how many "turns" does the motor have? (i understand this counts in wattage as well) also do you happen to know the guage of the winding? i believe that the thickness of it also tells about how many amps it can take.

I don't know how you'd calculate the turns on a motor that you didn't wind yourself. It's like guessing the number of beans in a jar. I can try mic'ing one of the windings. The Chinese provide no meaningful specs on anything. If they do give you a number, like "500 watts" it's some sort of nonsense they made up for duty or other regulatory purposes. This is at the very least a 1,920 watt motor @ 48V. Wishes and other crazies are running it at 4 kW.

 

[LightningRods]

Mike, its worth starting to collect Q & A's for content on your website when you start developing that more.
Maybe even consider having a discussion forum as part of your own website. You'll have control of it then (and I'm sure there will be no shortage of volunteers for post-patrollers to help you manage the content so it need not be a burden on your time).
It wouldn't be a "diss" to this place at all. There are bound to be a lot of questions/discussions specific to your kit as it adapts and evolves in the coming years.

I'm tremendously grateful to E-S, both as an institution and as a community. This issue with admin policy regarding off topic posts is an issue between the various admins, not between them and me. Once they figure out what their policy is, that's the way it's going to be here. Up until now the different admins had different personal policies and took different actions. The first time that Len deleted off topic posts from this thread and warned people I was very surprised. In the past I had dealt with Miles who has a total hands off policy unless it's a death threat. It sounds like they are closer to a consensus now so hopefully we will know what the rules are and be able to stay out of trouble.

My main focus on my web site is going to be creating content to help users install my kits and components. It's a bit of a catch 22 because right now I spend so much time writing people individually to explain things that I don't have the time to play with the web site. I already have a LightningRods Facebook page but I haven't been on there in months.

 

[emaayan]

what's the facebook address? i've searched for lightningrods..i'll add you, and invite others to like it (and i recommend everyone here do the same).

(must resist the paranoid side thinking custom officials might googling my ass if they'll examine my packages, man, i need to be medicated, the fake stress...)

 

[LightningRods]

what's the facebook address?

Here's the Facebook address: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lightning-Rods/613804531978401

What I will try to do is to mirror any significant posts that I make here on E-S on my Facebook page. Hopefully that will allow people the chat room freedom that they want here and still provide a neat, tidy venue for information specific to what I'm up to.

 

[BRK]

Mike, does anyone have your kit yet, or have you done your own ride yet?

This is the state of my own build:

I bought it brand new over a year ago. Every time I get enough parts together to make a kit for myself someone needs the parts and I send them off. Right now people are just using my parts on upgraded GNGs. As long as people are waiting for parts I feel uncomfortable keeping them for myself. I have one finished scratch built here that is promised to Spinningmagnets and three more kits just needing the final details and assembly. As far as I know Wishes and Skyungjae have put the most miles on my brackets and drive parts.

You're cracking me up LR..LOL.. Just like the cobbler, whose son has no shoes. This is a real phenomenon...perhaps the only way you will get a kit is to order one (from yourself!)

 

[LightningRods]

You're cracking me up LR..LOL.. Just like the cobbler, whose son has no shoes. This is a real phenomenon...perhaps the only way you will get a kit is to order one (from yourself!)

There's a lot of truth to that old saying. I am building up a collection of 'seconds', parts that came from the laser shop with bad cut quality, pulleys that had cosmetic casting problems, motors that were damaged in shipping, stuff I won't pass on to customers. I may 'cobble' (back to your quote) together a functional kit for myself that I can put on my bike and go riding. This is getting stupid. People like Wishes and Skyunjae have more on the road knowledge of my kits than I do. Plus we're having a drought in Oregon this Spring and the weather is California-like. 8)

 

[spinningmagnets]

Facebook link has been added to the first post of this thread.

After extensive testing by skyungjae and wishes, an exhaustive comparative study of the data has concluded that the performance is freakin awesome...

 

[emaayan]

You're cracking me up LR..LOL.. Just like the cobbler, whose son has no shoes. This is a real phenomenon...perhaps the only way you will get a kit is to order one (from yourself!)

There's a lot of truth to that old saying. I am building up a collection of 'seconds', parts that came from the laser shop with bad cut quality, pulleys that had cosmetic casting problems, motors that were damaged in shipping, stuff I won't pass on to customers. I may 'cobble' (back to your quote) together a functional kit for myself that I can put on my bike and go riding. This is getting stupid. People like Wishes and Skyunjae have more on the road knowledge of my kits than I do. Plus we're having a drought in Oregon this Spring and the weather is California-like. 8)

that doesn't sound like a safe collection of parts for a 3k watt motor...

 

[emaayan]

Facebook link has been added to the first post of this thread.

L-R you should also add that to your profile and signature info so it would be visible at all times..

 

[LightningRods]

that doesn't sound like a safe collection of parts for a 3k watt motor...

They're safe enough. They're just not pretty enough for customers. A boogery laser cut doesn't make a bracket unsafe, just unsightly.

Besides, I'm more concerned with your safety than my own.

 

[LightningRods]

Facebook link has been added to the first post of this thread.

After extensive testing by skyungjae and wishes, an exhaustive comparative study of the data has concluded that the performance is freakin awesome...

Thank you 'Magnets. You have been a good friend to me here on E-S from the beginning. I'm doing my best to live up to your faith in my work.

 

[emaayan]

that doesn't sound like a safe collection of parts for a 3k watt motor...

They're safe enough. They're just not pretty enough for customers. A boogery laser cut doesn't make a bracket unsafe, just unsightly.

Besides, I'm more concerned with your safety than my own.

me? meh, i'll probably get arrested on my first ride here, either that, or they'll just take it away, either that or they'll just won't let to motor pass through .. or not.. depends how things are going here. but you, you're the one with knowledge, besides if you want a good excuse to use the good parts for yourself over others, just tell them, your'e conducting extensive and rigid testing for the final product.

 

[stonezone]

Would it be a viable option to configure this kit as a single speed using a beefier #219 chain or similar and maxing out the battery?

 

[emaayan]

Would it be a viable option to configure this kit as a single speed using a beefier #219 chain or similar and maxing out the battery?

wouldn't that completely miss the point of having a mid-drive that makes use of gears and be more efficient?

personally i see no reason why it can't , because after all i'm using an alfine 11 and externally it's just as a single speed as the real one.

 

[spinningmagnets]

option to configure this kit as a single speed using a beefier #219 chain or similar and maxing out the battery?

Christerljung was an early adopter for buying the GNG and then upgrading every weak part. He verified how well the motor works at 72V, and when he went to using 100V, his experience led him to running a chain straight to the rear wheel, with no freewheeling BB, only using pegs instead of pedals.

edit: bzhwindtalker has built a DIY frame freeride with a big block with pegs (no pedals, blast up a steep mountain trail, roll downhill). He had planned on #420 chain (like Lukes Deathbike, a well proven choice), but went with #219, since the small pitch benefited the sprocket selection in the range he needed, and there would be less custom sprocket work.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=57668&start=175#p905041

I have no experience with this, so I know how arrogant it sounds for me to make any suggestions at all, but...my ultimate big block build would be similar to the motopeds frame, where there is a jackshaft concentric with the swingarm pivot. Sliding motor to tension the primary, 2:1 belt from the motor to the jackshaft with large pulleys and 25mm wide belt (anyone know where I could source those? *wink), and #219 chain on the right side from the jackshaft to a rear wheel chainring. Changing ratios? Extron Karting chainrings are $20, and an existing wide selection of split chainrings means you don't even have to remove the wheel to change a sprocket.

 

[LightningRods]

Would it be a viable option to configure this kit as a single speed using a beefier #219 chain or similar and maxing out the battery?

This can certainly be done. There are really only two reasons to run single speed- (1) You value simplicity over sophistication. You want clean looks and the fewest possible parts involved. (2) You like to ride wide open for short distances over fairly flat ground.

Most EV experts will tell you that not having a transmission effectively cuts your power in half. So if you ran one of these motors at 4 kW single run your overall performance would be similar to running it at 2 kW with gears. If you climb hills where you can't keep your speed up the 4 kW version will get hot. Gearing for single run is a compromise, a bit too high for starting out and a bit too low for cruising. Running the 4 kW motor at 40 km/hr is going to be drawing a lot more watts than the 2 kW with a higher top gear.

Running the big block single run starts to make more sense because that motor is capable of at least three times the comfortable 2 kW power ceiling for a derailleur. But now you're throwing even more brute power at the situation. Don't go single run big block if you want much range on a 10 ah battery pack.

The two big advantages of a mid drive over a hub motor are better weight placement on the bike and the use of multiple gears. With single run you eliminate one of those advantages.

219 chain is a great choice for electric bikes. It's super strong and the .30" pitch allows you to make big reductions in a small sprocket diameter. The more I work with this chain the more impressed I am with it.

 

[ebike11]

sorry for a noob question, but are the #219 and #25 chains fairly equal in strength and performance with each other??

 

[LightningRods]

sorry for a noob question, but are the #219 and #25 chains fairly equal in strength and performance with each other??

Normally no, not at all. I did find that D.I.D. the Japanese chain company that I buy my #219 from, has a #25 HD that is comparable in strength to #219. There is a huge variance in the strength of #25. Some of the cheap Chinese #25 is absolute garbage while the premium #25 chain is quite good.

I don't have a link to the #25 HD chain. I just saw it on a D.I.D. tensile strength chart. It was rated with #219 at around 2,000 psi while normal #25 is about 1/3 to 1/2 that amount.

 

[LightningRods]

Down to the fussy bits....

Here are the carriage head bolts that I'm using on the adjuster slide now. As you can see from the photos they have a much lower profile than allen cap heads. Plus the square shoulder under the head makes a wrench on this end unnecessary. Clearance between these bolt heads and the chainwheels is tight. This should make adjusting the secondary chain tension a lot more pleasant.