MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

If you're going to mix and match C rate cells, do it in parallel, not series.
The higher C rate cells will drain themselves more enthusiastically, thus will hit lower voltage sooner, yet the lower C rate cells will be at a higher voltage than normal.

Keep with the same manufacturer and make if you can. C ratings mean different things to different manufacturers.
For example my turnigy lipo has half the voltage sag and internal resistance as my zippys, even though both are marketed as 20C packs.

16S may very well do 40mph. That will eat amps for breakfast, so watch out :)
 
Yeah 40 mph would be crazy! :twisted:

That's good I know that now, because I was going to order 3S yesterday but then I spotted the 20C and the Zippy's I have now are 25C, so I'm glad I didn't get them now. I can't find any 3 or 4S 25C all out of stock on HK, I still can't believe they are out of stock of most batteries, it's really shocking!

I think the mac can take the 40 mph though, at 32 mph on the ping while I had it it was hardly warm!

AH It's just for fun the last mile or 2 from home to use up some ah I'll have left after a good cycle!

I could imagine Pat's face at 40 mph! muhahah! :mrgreen:
 
Another 4300, sweet!
Do you have a build thread? / more info..
 
yeah i have all story on Croatian forum if you understand that language :mrgreen:

http://www.e-vozila.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1445

For futher upgrade i can open also one thred here on ES :D
 
Hmm.. google is doing a bad job of translating that site, i can't read to much.

Anyway i took the DD hub out for a spin tonight on 10S / 76V w/the cell man controller.
Top speed was 43.9mph but that was on a slight downhill. Hit 41mph on a flat, but that took time. The amp limit is the problem here, otherwise i would be going about 46-50mph.

I could have cooked breakfast for an army on the poor little 9FET.
The motor was pretty hot too.
I am sure i was drawing 2800-3000 watts peak the entire time for almost 30 mins. Stunned that nothing went kaboom.

I'm thinking that the constant watt limit for the MXUS DD is about 2500w now.
 
Hey Neptronix,

How does the DD feel at 3k comparing to the MAC at 1.5k?
I know the MAC is hella fun with 35-40amps so the DD should be fun with 60.
Btw using the XDP I was able to set blocktime to 0 in MAC and it really cuts the torque by alot when launching. I ll test the Amp peaks with turnigy watt meter tmr with and without BT enabled.


Thanks
 
Hey Eugen,

That looks super, and the battery box, defiantly start a new build thread and tell us all about it!


David,

It would be interesting to see your results with the 12 fet infineon!

But even with all that power do you think the mac is still better than the dd with all that extra wattage?

Did you try the mac with the extra power of your 9 fet? It sure is fun @2000+ watts!


gensem,

That is interesting, Does it cut the Launch torque too much or does it make it a lot smoother?

I find that the launch torque is far too much, I mean if you have to always watch or tell people to push lightly on the throttle, and be concious of the fact if you hit it too hard it will throw you, then there is far too much torque!

I think the block time is good for direct drives but not necessary on the higher powered geared motors, because they already got the torque to get going without the extra surge of current!

So I may try set the block time when my 3 speed switch comes, that might be infineons version of soft start!

By the way I ordered 2 x 4S 5ah zippy's from HK, they actually have them in stock, not in Europe of course, so I guess they are coming from China, I hope the floods don't delay that too much.

16S is going to be wicked on the mac guys I can't wait! :twisted:
 
o00scorpion00o said:
gensem,

That is interesting, Does it cut the Launch torque too much or does it make it a lot smoother?

I find that the launch torque is far too much, I mean if you have to always watch or tell people to push lightly on the throttle, and be concious of the fact if you hit it too hard it will throw you, then there is far too much torque!

I think the block time is good for direct drives but not necessary on the higher powered geared motors, because they already got the torque to get going without the extra surge of current!

So I may try set the block time when my 3 speed switch comes, that might be infineons version of soft start!

By the way I ordered 2 x 4S 5ah zippy's from HK, they actually have them in stock, not in Europe of course, so I guess they are coming from China, I hope the floods don't delay that too much.

16S is going to be wicked on the mac guys I can't wait! :twisted:

It does cut the starting torque by alot, there is not torque hit at the start but the climbing ability is still pretty much the same. My friends who arent used with the bike likes the lower torque alot, but me... I could use some Amps, hehe.
Granted Im using a 16s ping with 15ah and my peak amps are around 29.7amps(1500w on turnigy WM), I would love to be able to let it use lets say 38 amps (around 2k input power) for higher clibbing ability.
btw my MAC is defective, it never freewheeled and If I turn the throttle hard after using the brakes there is a loud iron hitting iron noise inside the motor. The drag is not big by no means.
I might consider a motor with regen new time.
 
gensem said:
It does cut the starting torque by alot, there is not torque hit at the start but the climbing ability is still pretty much the same. My friends who arent used with the bike likes the lower torque alot, but me... I could use some Amps, hehe.
Granted Im using a 16s ping with 15ah and my peak amps are around 29.7amps(1500w on turnigy WM), I would love to be able to let it use lets say 38 amps (around 2k input power) for higher clibbing ability.
btw my MAC is defective, it never freewheeled and If I turn the throttle hard after using the brakes there is a loud iron hitting iron noise inside the motor. The drag is not big by no means.
I might consider a motor with regen new time.


Yeah, regen is cool, but really It doesn't bother me not having it. Hydraulic disk brakes are more than good enough for me and you don't put anything worthwhile back in the battery unless you are going down a mountain.

I just find the launch torque on the mac too agressive, but if the bike was much lower to the ground it wouldn't be so dangerous!

If I find that bt of 0 too low, maybe I can go to 0.5 if it allows?

When did you get your mac?

I hope mine survives, though I won't be using it for miles at a time just for boost on hills and some fun the last mile or two from home after a long cycle.


Mark
 
I dunno about the 12 FET business. I'm scared to push the DD further, it's my backup motor so i can't destroy it.
Too hot to the touch is where i stop pumping power in :shock:

At double the voltage, the DD is of course peppier than the MAC. The torque curve is just longer.
At the same voltage and amp level, the MAC is always faster and requires less amps to cruise along.

What you really need for 35-50mph is ~40-60 amps and i'm only giving it 36. That's why i can't maintain 40mph+ so well. At least on the DD.

I think i will do a short 72v run with the MAC and see what happens.
I have a spare set of gears, a clutch, and bearings.

Oh as for block time, i can't tell if it makes a difference for me or not. I have a hill that will draw peak amps and tested block time 1, 3, and 0... no difference in my peak amps.
 
Hi David,

My infineon on the pie was pulling 40 amps from the battery, I have no Idea what the phase current was set to!

Pat is interested in the mac now of course, and I need to put his controller on my bike to see if it drives it ok. So I may or may not hook the program cable to it.

The magic pie motor though hardly got warm no matter what I put it through, now I did rewire it with the 12G alfa wire ecowire. Amazingly thin insulation, so I bet your DD could take the same amps as the mac easy enough?

However the pie was a low wind motor and so drew more amps on hills and only 700-800 on level ground, and only went 24mph max at 50 volts so maybe that had a lot to do with it being cool? Id say 60+ volts would have made it fly though. And maybe the 72 volts would have made it hot too, I believe from one of the other es forums that is isn't a very efficient motor above 48 volts anyway!

I was pulling around 2100 max amps though and at 72 volts you would be pulling nearly 2900 watts! That might be a different story!

The torque at 80 amps was just so nuts it had to be experienced to be believed, but then I got the 40 amp infineon after I fried my other controller it was much easier on the Ping, as I could only pull 80 amps for a few seconds before I tripped the bms!

72 volts should be lots of fun through the mac, but I think it's too fast lol, when I get my extra 4S I'll have about 56 volts nominal and should be about 35 mph with my mac and maybe a little faster with the 120% speed setting!

DD motors can take some abuse and I would have one of the new crystalyte sensorless motors if I didn't care about free wheeling or peddling!

The crystalyte hs35 seems to be a good motor and efficient!
 
neptronix said:
Oh as for block time, i can't tell if it makes a difference for me or not. I have a hill that will draw peak amps and tested block time 1, 3, and 0... no difference in my peak amps.

The peaks are mostly the same but the launching torque does change.. I did some testing today.
0,5 ll probably still give a horse kick starting, just a really fast one. hehe.
 
How'd you get those torque plates? I'm helping my friend build a cargo e-bike and it'd be nice to have plates instead of arms.
 
li-ghtcycle here in the Portland area cut them out for me. One's from a tow hitch, the other is from some 1/4in. steel plate he had lying around.
 
I just watched the video where you race that car. That was pretty funny. I'm surprised at how much voltage and amps you can run through that MAC. I always got the impression on the forums that they couldn't take that much power. I wonder how the gears would hold up running that power on the streets here though. They aren't nearly as nice. Not really a way to avoid having to go over pretty rough section every few miles. They don't hold up to aggressive off-roading riding as well as DD, yeah?
 
Yeah, i was surprised that i was able to put this kind of power to it too. Even more surprised that it can take more power than the DD.

The MAC, and geared motors in general, are not known for their resilience to off road / bumpy conditions. I believe that part of the load from the rider and bike's weight is actually sitting on the gears.

But i've found that tires can make a big difference. I switched over from an Armadillo 1.95" rear to the 1.8" Michelin city tire and it has smoothed out the ride a bunch. I bet if you had fatter tires, you could get away with some rocky riding on a geared.
 
neptronix said:
Yeah, i was surprised that i was able to put this kind of power to it too. Even more surprised that it can take more power than the DD.

The MAC, and geared motors in general, are not known for their resilience to off road / bumpy conditions. I believe that part of the load from the rider and bike's weight is actually sitting on the gears.

But i've found that tires can make a big difference. I switched over from an Armadillo 1.95" rear to the 1.8" Michelin city tire and it has smoothed out the ride a bunch. I bet if you had fatter tires, you could get away with some rocky riding on a geared.


Yeah I definitely agree about the tyres, I changed to Continental sport contacts 1.6 pumped to 90 psi, it was like going from a half flat tyre to a hard pumped tyre, it's amazing how the knobbly tyres slow you down!

They are supposed to be puncture proof, lol I'll find out I suppose!

But you would probably need the knobbly tyres al right for the rough trails.

Who wants to try out their mac on the rough trails? hehe it sure won't be me, I love it too much!

In the future I plan to build another bike for fun and it will be direct drive, The new Crystalyte HS motors seem to get good reviews, I'm sure with 75+ volts it would make a nice dirt bike! :twisted: Ha by the time I have money for that they will probably have much better batteries around!


Mark
 
Picked up 2 frame bags recently due to the ammo box not working out so well.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29274

Crystalyte frame bag.. ( similar dimensions as the the power in motion bag )

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29211

Falcon EV bag..

I have decided to use the Falcon EV bag, as it's huge and the battery weight sits on the triangle just enough to prevent the
bag from being stressed out. Added some padding from the local hardware store just for extra security.

falconev20ah.jpg


Front mount with a heavy pack is freaking awesome!!! no more rattling rear rack, the bike handles like a normal bike again, bumps are a non-event, and the front suspension is slightly compressed and thus does it's job much better!

After a year steady of searching, i think i found my ideal battery mount! I think i will put the controller in there too and eliminate the rear rack for a nice stealth effect.
 
Careful about putting the controller in there, as it will now be heat-insulated, and possibly toast itself. Maybe not all at once, but over time it will cook all the parts in it to higher temperatures than they were before, heat up faster and cool off a lot slower, and those are all bad things for any electronic device, especially ones like capacitors.
 
Amberwolf, you are right. I just went for a 30 mile ride, 10+ miles which involved constant hills/incline, and that controller got pretty hot. If i open the corner of the bag and give it some ventilation, it stays just warm to the touch after a mile or two. But it certainly approaches the danger zone of, "too hot to touch.."

But I can't get over how clean an eBike looks without the controller + wires hanging out though. Look at this:

summer2011.jpg


Perhaps i can use a fan blowing outwards to keep the controller heat in check, what do you think?
 
I tried the controller-in-bag thing too, with The Velcro Eclipse,
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20595
and even with the endplates off of the controller, it still got too warm for my liking, even with the end flap of the bag open, facing forward, with all the airflow that gets.


That was with the 9C on there; I expect using the Fusin controller and motor that way will probably be less heat, at the same 36V, but I don't know yet.

I had first tested it without a bag, like this:
file.php

and had no problems.

After that I stuffed it all in the bag and tried it out, and that's when it was too warm for my liking. I can't seem to find the pic of that.

Finally, it was like this:
file.php

and that ran even cooler than the first way, since the controller had it's open ends along the direction of airflow. Not a lot of testing that way, though, as I didnt' end up getting very much riding done on TVE, before I wound up putting the motor back on DGA and then on CB2, IIRC.


Unless the fan either pulls air *thru* the controller, with the ends off or ventilated, or else pulls air around all sides of the controller from outside the bag, with airflow at least equivalent to what it would get if it werent' in the bag, it probably won't make much internal temperature difference from how you are doing it now with the bag partly open.

And unless you use a squirrel-cage fan, it probably won't move enough air for a really small size, either. :( All the tiny axial-flow fans I've used that are not incredibly loud and power-hungry (and even most of those) move hardly any air if there is anything at all impeding the flow, either into or out of them. On their own, with nothing behind or in front of them they can move a lot of air, sometimes, but not once the flow becomes turbulent around them, like when air is passing over components and stuff.

The radial-flow fans (squirrel-cage) usually move way more air for the same power and noise and size, with the change that the airflow is now being redirected 90 degrees. That might actually be better, in the case of the controller-in-bag, as you could make the exit port at the corner zipper point, perhaps, so that it can still be only unzipped a little during use, and the inlet of the fan at the end of the controller, with the other end open completely for best airflow. If the bag itself has a water-resistant liner, it is also going to stop airflow, so you would either have to open the other end of the bag, too, or install a hidden vent somewhere, preferably near where the other end of the controller is. If the bag is cloth only, the weave may let enough air in over it's entire surface area to be rather like the opposite of a vacuum-cleaner bag (whcih inputs at the hole, and exhausts thru the rest of the surface area). Caveat: The outside of the bag will get dust sucked into the weave, this way. ;)
 
Hi David,

Wow that looks so cool without all the wires and controller!

That's 20ah 10S you got there? I'm sure I could fit my 16S 10 ah no problem there too and probably 20ah with a bit of a push lol

But I would have to buy in that bag from over there, so I think for now I'll stay with the Topeak bag and try make the Zippy's as snug as possible.

Are you going to bulk charge all that rather than disconnect everything ? I wouldn't have that option that's the biggest pain with LiPo. I might someday consider a BMS if there is one available for that application ?
 
Amberwolf, thanks for your input. That red bike looks like the cleanest build of yours so far.. hehe.
I know what you mean about a push-pull setup :(... that would just make for dust, dirt, and rocks in my battery pack since wider tires like to kick that stuff up.

I think i will push the controller upwards towards the zipper area and just leave the bag cracked open a bit until i can come up with something else.

falconev20ah_2.jpg


This should be much better now.

falconev20ah_3.jpg


Scorpion: Yeah, that's 10S 20AH. You could fit 10 bricks into it, even with the super thick padding shown in the pic.

Bulk charging happens with the meanwell at a 7.5 amp rate. Nothing needs to be disconnected inside. If i need to balance charge, i plug the pack into the iCharger 1010b+ via some balance lead extenders.

charginglead.jpg


If you stick to 14S, you could operate the same way.
You can use a 48v meanwell from sureelectronics to do the bulk charging, mine adjusts up to 59.9v. You need 58.1v if you're gonna do 14S @ 4.15v/cell.

Or just buy a hyperion 14S charger, it can do unbalanced charges at higher rates than the meanwell can put out.

16S is a weird voltage and will always require some funky reconfiguring to balance.

Now you know why i like 10S-14S so much.
 
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